Preferred Justice League Formation Story

[The Darknight Detective]

One other thing about Martian Manhunter and Justice League of America #144.

That was the first JL comic with him in it that I ever read, FWIW. The month before was the first comic (Adventure Comics #451) that I ever read or owned of J'onn.

[caj]

One other thing about Martian Manhunter and Justice League of America #144.

J'onn had left the League back in Justice League of America #71 (May 1969), only occasionally returning (even for just a cameo appearance) until Justice League of America #228 (July 1984).
Justice League of America #233 (December 1984) marked the start of the Detroit era.

An example of J'onn's appearances would include JLofA #177 and #178 vs Despero

[Jim Kelly]

The first time I saw Martian Manhunter (other than in Topps' COMIC BOOK FOLDEES) was in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 52 (March 1967)--"Missing in Action--5 Justice Leaguers." The next time was in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 (May 1968) and 176 (June 1968) which reprinted the first two John Jones stories from DETECTIVE COMICS 225 (November 1955) and 226 (December 1955). In "The Strange Experiment of Dr. Erdel," the Manhunter observes that there's crime on Earth, whereas crime and wickedness was made obsolete centuries ago on Mars, after the Great Evolution.

Denny O'Neil changed that and introduced the white Martians--in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 71 (May 1969)--"...And So My World Ends." They are wicked. Which would make JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 144 (July 1977)--"The Origin of the Justice League--Minus One"--an anachronism. It has the wicked white Martians yet they shouldn't exist in a story from 1959. If this story is supposed to be accurate to the comics of 1959 and transport us back to that era, the white Martians ring false. The continuity is retroactive.

[John Venus]

Should Secret Origins #32 (November 1988) have been included, since that was the post-CoIE retelling of Justice League of America #9 with the Appelaxians?
Major differences included Black Canary (II) as a founding member instead of Wonder Woman, plus no Batman.

That one slipped my mind. That should be the one on the poll and I had it on mind but for some reason what popped into my mind when I thought first JLA meeting post Crisis' was JLA: Year One.

A lot of these aren't mutually exclusive. The Apellexian and White Martian stories slot into the same continuity. The Starro story isn't an origin, anymore than 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate' was an origin for Batman. JLA Year One also isn't really an origin story, but follows on from the Apellexian story.

That said, while they're all great, I went for the DCAU version, which is heavily inspired by Morrison's 'New World Order' (which in turn I'm pretty sure took its cues from the original White Martian story).

Both Apellexian and White Martian story were meant to be 'this is how they first met' stories when they came out.

I hadn't read the Starro story before I made the poll. But a case could be made that it should be on there since it's the first time the audience saw those characters together.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I don't see it listed. I always enjoyed Morrison bringing the team together as the Pantheon.

It's a poll for all the comics that purport to be the first time these characters met. If I included all the times the League regrouped, this would be a much bigger poll.

[NathanS]

The first time I saw Martian Manhunter (other than in Topps' COMIC BOOK FOLDEES) was in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 52 (March 1967)--"Missing in Action--5 Justice Leaguers." The next time was in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 (May 1968) and 176 (June 1968) which reprinted the first two John Jones stories from DETECTIVE COMICS 225 (November 1955) and 226 (December 1955). In "The Strange Experiment of Dr. Erdel," the Manhunter observes that there's crime on Earth, whereas crime and wickedness was made obsolete centuries ago on Mars, after the Great Evolution.

Denny O'Neil changed that and introduced the white Martians--in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 71 (May 1969)--"...And So My World Ends." They are wicked. Which would make JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 144 (July 1977)--"The Origin of the Justice League--Minus One"--an anachronism. It has the wicked white Martians yet they shouldn't exist in a story from 1959. If this story is supposed to be accurate to the comics of 1959 and transport us back to that era, the white Martians ring false. The continuity is retroactive.

Well 144 is meant to invoke the comics of the era in order to give a bit of grander to the formation of the League (every active hero or hero like figure of the era is involved in the events that form the League) its still working in the continuity established up to that point, including the retcons.

[bat39]

The first time I saw Martian Manhunter (other than in Topps' COMIC BOOK FOLDEES) was in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 52 (March 1967)--"Missing in Action--5 Justice Leaguers." The next time was in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 (May 1968) and 176 (June 1968) which reprinted the first two John Jones stories from DETECTIVE COMICS 225 (November 1955) and 226 (December 1955). In "The Strange Experiment of Dr. Erdel," the Manhunter observes that there's crime on Earth, whereas crime and wickedness was made obsolete centuries ago on Mars, after the Great Evolution.

Denny O'Neil changed that and introduced the white Martians--in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 71 (May 1969)--"...And So My World Ends." They are wicked. Which would make JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 144 (July 1977)--"The Origin of the Justice League--Minus One"--an anachronism. It has the wicked white Martians yet they shouldn't exist in a story from 1959. If this story is supposed to be accurate to the comics of 1959 and transport us back to that era, the white Martians ring false. The continuity is retroactive.

I mean, theoretically, any story that revisits a past era is retroactive. (In fact, that's where the term 'retroactive continuity' or 'retcon' originally came from, in relation to All-Star Squadron).

[Jim Kelly]

I mean, theoretically, any story that revisits a past era is retroactive. (In fact, that's where the term 'retroactive continuity' or 'retcon' originally came from, in relation to All-Star Squadron).

But the conceit of the story is that it could have happened at that time just before THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD 28 was published. It's not retconning the Justice League of 1977--it's momentarily suspending comic book logic for the sake of telling a story set in the original timeline. However, when you think about it (too long), it all comes apart and doesn't work that way. It's a great story but never actually could have happened how it did in the original timeline.

[bat39]

But the conceit of the story is that it could have happened at that time just before THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD 28 was published. It's not retconning the Justice League of 1977--it's momentarily suspending comic book logic for the sake of telling a story set in the original timeline. However, when you think about it (too long), it all comes apart and doesn't work that way. It's a great story but never actually could have happened how it did in the original timeline.

Not sure I understand your point.

There isn't really a question of an 'original timeline' here as far as I know (to be fair, I've never actually read the story in question). Its supposed to be set in the same continuity/timeline as all previous Justice League (and other Silver Age DC) stories, namely Earth One. Yes, it incorporates elements that weren't actually around back in 1959, but so what? Once those elements were introduced later, they existed within the same universe and could theoretically be featured in a 'prequel' story as well, as long as they do not contradict previous stories (and let's face it, most prequels, especially in comics, do have at least some contradictions with previous materials).

Your complaint is a bit akin to complaining about the scene in Avengers Endgame where the team travels back to the events of the first Avengers movie and the Ancient One is present in New York during the battle against the Chitauri. Now you might argue that there was no sign of the Ancient One in the original Avengers film...but once she was introduced in Dr. Strange, it was revealed that she'd been around as the Sorceror Supreme for a long time, so it made sense that she could have been present in New York during the Chitauri battle. Likewise, once the existence of White Martians was established in DC continuity, it was possible for them to have been around even during the formation of the Justice League.

[Jim Kelly]

Your complaint . . .

Now let's not get the wrong end of the stick. I've lodged no complaint. No paper work has been filed with the designated authority. This is simply a little tangent that is off the beaten path from the main topic.

To me, the story in 144 is presented as a little flight of fancy supposing "what if" this happened back then. However, by bringing in retroactive continuity that didn't exist at the time, it undermines that suspension of disbelief--maybe not for everyone and not for me at the time--only with further consideration it can't stay suspended in mid-air and the weight of its own contradictions sends it crashing to the floor. Send in the clowns.

[I've yet to see AVENGERS' ENDGAME.]

As a side note to a side note, when I first read the John Jones stories in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 and 176, I was quite taken with the idea that there was no war and no crime on Mars. They had achieved a state of universal peace.

It was depressing to later learn it had been rewritten to be the exact opposite. But that fits with Fig Newton's Fourth Law of Comic Book Writing:

All Utopias through successive rewrites become Dystopias.

We see this not just with Mars, but also with Thanagar, Rann, Krypton . . . Anywhere that people have achieved mutual understanding and love for their fellow creature will inevitably devolve into misunderstanding and hate, as writers search for ways to mess things up.

[Stanlos]

The first time I saw Martian Manhunter (other than in Topps' COMIC BOOK FOLDEES) was in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 52 (March 1967)--"Missing in Action--5 Justice Leaguers." The next time was in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 (May 1968) and 176 (June 1968) which reprinted the first two John Jones stories from DETECTIVE COMICS 225 (November 1955) and 226 (December 1955). In "The Strange Experiment of Dr. Erdel," the Manhunter observes that there's crime on Earth, whereas crime and wickedness was made obsolete centuries ago on Mars, after the Great Evolution.

Denny O'Neil changed that and introduced the white Martians--in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 71 (May 1969)--"...And So My World Ends." They are wicked. Which would make JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 144 (July 1977)--"The Origin of the Justice League--Minus One"--an anachronism. It has the wicked white Martians yet they shouldn't exist in a story from 1959. If this story is supposed to be accurate to the comics of 1959 and transport us back to that era, the white Martians ring false. The continuity is retroactive.

I am thoroughly confused by something. If Denny introduced the evil Pale Martians (<derp>I totally thought that was a Morrison thing</derp>), then how did they appear in an earlier origin story for the League? Did I misunderstand or overlook a portion?

[Jim Kelly]

I am thoroughly confused by something. If Denny introduced the evil Pale Martians (<derp>I totally thought that was a Morrison thing</derp>), then how did they appear in an earlier origin story for the League? Did I misunderstand or overlook a portion?

Denny introduced them and they became retroactively part of J'Onn's continuity (although by that time--I think--the idea that Martians were peaceful had already been broken). They were then used in the origin for 144.

By the time Morrison used them (and they looked very different), continuity had changed so much, that story might have been the new version of continuity. It's been so long since I read any of these stories, I'm a bit confused myself.

[bat39]

Now let's not get the wrong end of the stick. I've lodged no complaint. No paper work has been filed with the designated authority. This is simply a little tangent that is off the beaten path from the main topic.

To me, the story in 144 is presented as a little flight of fancy supposing "what if" this happened back then. However, by bringing in retroactive continuity that didn't exist at the time, it undermines that suspension of disbelief--maybe not for everyone and not for me at the time--only with further consideration it can't stay suspended in mid-air and the weight of its own contradictions sends it crashing to the floor. Send in the clowns.

[I've yet to see AVENGERS' ENDGAME.]

As a side note to a side note, when I first read the John Jones stories in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS 175 and 176, I was quite taken with the idea that there was no war and no crime on Mars. They had achieved a state of universal peace.

It was depressing to later learn it had been rewritten to be the exact opposite. But that fits with Fig Newton's Fourth Law of Comic Book Writing:

All Utopias through successive rewrites become Dystopias.

We see this not just with Mars, but also with Thanagar, Rann, Krypton . . . Anywhere that people have achieved mutual understanding and love for their fellow creature will inevitably devolve into misunderstanding and hate, as writers search for ways to mess things up.

LOL. Yeah, 'complaint' was maybe not the best choice of word on my part

As far as Mars goes, surely J'onn meant that Green Martian society was peaceful and utopian? Retroactively, that's what makes the most sense.

I don't really have a problem with utopias eventually being revealed to have their darker sides because frankly that's how it is in the real world. I don't even think it's necessarily a 'retcon'. Childlike Silver Age writing eventually gives way to more mature and 'realistic' Bronze Age writing (which gets dialled up to 11 in the Modern Age). It's like when you're a kid you have a certain perception of the world because that's what the adults around you feed you. As you grow older, you realize the truth (or something close to the 'truth').

When you're a kid (or rather, when comic writers are writing for kids) its easy to believe that Thanagar, Mars, Rann and Krypton are blemish-free utopias. When you're an adult (or when comic writers start writing for adults) that becomes a lot harder to digest.

[MajorHoy]

With 49 people having voted so far, the leading contenders at the moment are

* Brave and the Bold #28 (February-March 1960) <Starro> = 11 votes
* Justice League of America #144 (July 1977) <The White Martians> = 11 votes
* JLA Year One (January 1998) <Post Crisis> = 11 votes
* Justice League of America #9 (February 1962) <Appelaxians> = 10 votes

[MajorHoy]

With 51 people having voted so far,

* JLA Year One (January 1998) <Post Crisis> = 12 votes
* Brave and the Bold #28 (February-March 1960) <Starro> = 11 votes
* Justice League of America #144 (July 1977) <The White Martians> = 11 votes
* Justice League of America #9 (February 1962) <Appelaxians> = 10 votes

[Jim Kelly]

I mean, theoretically, any story that revisits a past era is retroactive. (In fact, that's where the term 'retroactive continuity' or 'retcon' originally came from, in relation to All-Star Squadron).

After posting on this thread, I went back to read the Martian Manhunter stories in SHOWCASE PRESENTS and I've found I was wrong in my opinion. Yes, J'Onn represents Mars a certain way in his first few appearances, but that version of Mars goes right out the window in the following stories. This might be due to the original writer being Joe Samachson, but he only wrote the first three stories. Once Jack Miller becomes the ongoing writer, he goes in a different direction. There are crooks from Mars, J'Onn can talk to his parents on Mars, there seems to be no end to his Martian powers but he routinely loses his powers at the drop of a match (or a passing comet).