Is the Zeb Wells run on Amazing Spider-Man the worst run in the history of ASM?

[Mercwmouth12]

I agree. Try and let it go.

But many ARE voting with their wallets, but I’ve continued to say Spider-Man is “failure-proof”, and with all the variant covers, Speculator purchases, run completionists, general public Spidey hype from new movies and games, and stunt deaths, the book is still a top-seller. The very worst Spider-Man issue is going to outsell the very best Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Daredevil issue. The book will sell if it’s good or bad, if it stars Peter or not, so long as “Spider-Man” is on the cover.

It’s just disappointing and frustrating that as recently as last month, Marvel editorial was still telling fans they’re wrong for asking for certain fixes, promising things were going to get worse for the character, pulling “Women in Refrigerators” tropes out in 2023, claiming “we get more positive letters about One More Day than negative ones”, bragging about being warned not to go to cons due to controversy, etc.

They antagonize readers like no other editorial team I see out there. It’s tiresome.

are you sure about that? Many of the charts people use to gage sales are just the lists from stores that is a small margin and that is also by ranking of issues ordered and inflated by variants attached to the issues

[Coop]

I would call it one of the worst for sure. Not a lot works. The humor is dumb and random. Not really clever. The stakes feel nonexistent. Peter feels like a spectator or guest star in his own story.

Couldn't disagree more heavily with the directions they are going with Peter, Ben, and MJ. Worse than that, the execution is somehow worse than the concept. Peter as mentioned is not at the wheel of his own story. It's a bunch of things happening around him. He doesn't feel like an active participant so much as an observer. Ms Marvel's death being the way whatever the villain is dies is a prime example. Mary Jane, Paul, the kids, I don't like that direction at all but in execution it's a hollow mystery box misery engine. Paul is a nothing character. The kids are literally nothing characters. They did not make a compelling case for their relationship, attachment to the kids, or showcase why having them together offers anything beyond making Peter+MJ fans upset. The stuff with Ben is awful, but Chasm in execution is even worse. Far from a "dark reflection" of Peter, Ben as Chasm is more of a fun house mirror. A parody character. A joke with no consistent memories or personality except he's mad at Peter. His entire conflict is robbed of his dramatic stakes because of the "humorous" way Ben misremembers the story.

Even the one interesting concept, Norman as a good guy, falls apart in execution. Peter's sudden reliance on Norman as a friend and confident (poorly explained by the last arc) doesn't feel natural. And the whole conflict feels undermined by the inevitability of Green Goblin's return. So it feels like wheel spinning.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Back when the run was starting I said calling it "the worst" was hyperbole, and while I think it might still be, because to make a sweeping claim like this I'd like as much data as possible (as well as enough memory of the other nadirs fresh in my mind). So I'll cut to the chase and say that if it's not the worst, it's damn well trying to make a case for it (and I'd definitely place it at a bottom tier, whether it's the undisputed king or not).

[Matt14teg]

I agree. Try and let it go.

But many ARE voting with their wallets, but I’ve continued to say Spider-Man is “failure-proof”, and with all the variant covers, Speculator purchases, run completionists, general public Spidey hype from new movies and games, and stunt deaths, the book is still a top-seller. The very worst Spider-Man issue is going to outsell the very best Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Daredevil issue. The book will sell if it’s good or bad, if it stars Peter or not, so long as “Spider-Man” is on the cover.

It’s just disappointing and frustrating that as recently as last month, Marvel editorial was still telling fans they’re wrong for asking for certain fixes, promising things were going to get worse for the character, pulling “Women in Refrigerators” tropes out in 2023, claiming “we get more positive letters about One More Day than negative ones”, bragging about being warned not to go to cons due to controversy, etc.

They antagonize readers like no other editorial team I see out there. It’s tiresome.

It's only a matter of time before one writer does something that actually gets the entire editorial team in hot water. As bulletproof as the argument "Sales is king" may be, since the 26th installment, they have stopped provoking the fandom. The majority of the active fandom will likely conclude that they are not only tired of this run but also disappointed with the editorial team. While social media is not the sole determinant of a product's worth, its impact on brand image is significant. Currently, the editorial team is protected by the sales, but it only takes one bad quarter at Disney or one executive who wants to "shake things up" for things to self-destruct. Overall, I understand that many people feel heartbroken over the run, and the best course of action is to speak with your wallet by buying products you enjoy or taking a break from Spider-Man mentally. Additionally, it is encouraged to engage in a healthy discussion with critics, without resorting to death threats. Remember, you still have a voice, and if you believe this run is unsatisfactory, make it known to them through the following contacts: mheroes@marvel.com, spideyoffice@marvel.com, responsibility@twdc.com (Disney). They may hold the sales, but we will shape public opinion until change is brought forward

[FFJamie94]

I agree. Try and let it go.

But many ARE voting with their wallets, but I’ve continued to say Spider-Man is “failure-proof”, and with all the variant covers, Speculator purchases, run completionists, general public Spidey hype from new movies and games, and stunt deaths, the book is still a top-seller. The very worst Spider-Man issue is going to outsell the very best Hawkeye, Moon Knight, and Daredevil issue. The book will sell if it’s good or bad, if it stars Peter or not, so long as “Spider-Man” is on the cover.

It’s just disappointing and frustrating that as recently as last month, Marvel editorial was still telling fans they’re wrong for asking for certain fixes, promising things were going to get worse for the character, pulling “Women in Refrigerators” tropes out in 2023, claiming “we get more positive letters about One More Day than negative ones”, bragging about being warned not to go to cons due to controversy, etc.

They antagonize readers like no other editorial team I see out there. It’s tiresome.

This ultimately my problem, it's a very hostile relationship between fans and editorial, and it seems Zeb Wells is the Person in the middle of it, getting a lot of the hate from fans while also having his arm twisted by editorial.
Marvel have had an issue with editors for a while now, in that there aren't that many at the Company and they are spread too thin, which sucks as I think Marvel is having a great period right now.
But out of all the editors, the only three I really know by name is Lowe, White and Brevoort, and say what you want about them, at least we know the directions they want the comics to go in. At least there is communication with the fans.

It's weird, but I think Marvel overthink Spider-Man too much. I think everyone overthinks him too much to the point we're at the stalemate we're in now.
I've said it before, Spider-Man to too big to fail, but also too big to succeed. I think we just have to accept facts that right now, the Character isn't in a good place, which is wild as the Spider-Man franchise is in the best place it could ever be.

The fact of the matter is, whether Wells' has the worst run or not isn't the problem, it's just a consequence of that problem. I don't think I've seen the Spider-Man fanbase happy since One More Day... and that was nearly 20 years ago.
We just have to accept that Marvel are never going to reverse it. And Marvel needs to stop teasing the fans by thinking they will. It's unhealthy for everyone involved.
I don't think it's a Wells problem or even a Lowe problem... heck I doubt it's even a Cebulski problem.
I think it's simply a marketing problem. Enrage the audience, get them to talk about it and then the sales go up. It works for some reason.
Maybe when the run is finished, we'll look back and think it's a great run, or maybe People will just forget about it and the things that are remembered will be in a top 10 list of worst Spider-Man stories somewhere.
There are better stories out there, not just with the Spider-man title slapped on it.
And it may seem hypocritical as I'm still buying it, there's still elements of the comic I like. I like the Tombstone stuff, I like the Ock stuff. It's all stuff I want to read from a Spider-Man comic
There's still good there, I just think recency bias is kicking in.

[Garlador]

Remember, you still have a voice, and if you believe this run is unsatisfactory, make it known to them through the following contacts: mheroes@marvel.com, spideyoffice@marvel.com, responsibility@twdc.com (Disney). They may hold the sales, but we will shape public opinion until change is brought forward

I know some of us have written in (I’ve reached out to all three), but anyone else open to writing the offices directly?

For as much as we complain, Nick Lowe does say they read every email they get.

[clonegeek]

I know some of us have written in (I’ve reached out to all three), but anyone else open to writing the offices directly?

For as much as we complain, Nick Lowe does say they read every email they get.

I've sent out several emails.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

No disrespect to anyone, but arguably anyone who paints Wells as a victim of Editorial at this point is engaging in tribalism.

We know that a lot of story decisions came from Wells. We also know thanks to Spencer that Editorial isn't against a status quo more like pre-OMD (as long as Peter and MJ aren't married).

I sometimes feel like some people give Wells a pass because of his connections to Team Hickman and MCU. That's why I said it feels like tribalism. "There is no way a guy from the groups I like is responsible for all this, it must be the group I've been beefing with for 15 years."

[Kurolegacy]

Can’t really speak for every run since I haven’t seen them all but I’d definitely say it’s one of the worst runs in the series and certainly is the worst one that I’ve read. I dropped the book during Superior because I didn’t like the plot point, but this run makes me want to drop it because I just don’t care about anything going on.

[Garlador]

are you sure about that? Many of the charts people use to gage sales are just the lists from stores that is a small margin and that is also by ranking of issues ordered and inflated by variants attached to the issues

I really don’t know. I hope a bad story isn’t rewarded with high sales.

[Alex_Of_X]

This ultimately my problem, it's a very hostile relationship between fans and editorial, and it seems Zeb Wells is the Person in the middle of it, getting a lot of the hate from fans while also having his arm twisted by editorial.
Marvel have had an issue with editors for a while now, in that there aren't that many at the Company and they are spread too thin, which sucks as I think Marvel is having a great period right now.
But out of all the editors, the only three I really know by name is Lowe, White and Brevoort, and say what you want about them, at least we know the directions they want the comics to go in. At least there is communication with the fans.

It's weird, but I think Marvel overthink Spider-Man too much. I think everyone overthinks him too much to the point we're at the stalemate we're in now.
I've said it before, Spider-Man to too big to fail, but also too big to succeed. I think we just have to accept facts that right now, the Character isn't in a good place, which is wild as the Spider-Man franchise is in the best place it could ever be.

The fact of the matter is, whether Wells' has the worst run or not isn't the problem, it's just a consequence of that problem. I don't think I've seen the Spider-Man fanbase happy since One More Day... and that was nearly 20 years ago.
We just have to accept that Marvel are never going to reverse it. And Marvel needs to stop teasing the fans by thinking they will. It's unhealthy for everyone involved.
I don't think it's a Wells problem or even a Lowe problem... heck I doubt it's even a Cebulski problem.
I think it's simply a marketing problem. Enrage the audience, get them to talk about it and then the sales go up. It works for some reason.
Maybe when the run is finished, we'll look back and think it's a great run, or maybe People will just forget about it and the things that are remembered will be in a top 10 list of worst Spider-Man stories somewhere.
There are better stories out there, not just with the Spider-man title slapped on it.
And it may seem hypocritical as I'm still buying it, there's still elements of the comic I like. I like the Tombstone stuff, I like the Ock stuff. It's all stuff I want to read from a Spider-Man comic
There's still good there, I just think recency bias is kicking in.

M'dude, you get it.

comic's good

[clonegeek]

M'dude, you get it.

comic's good

Here's the thing the editorial at Marvel really hasn't changed since OMD. That's why its remained in place for so long

[Matt14teg]

This ultimately my problem, it's a very hostile relationship between fans and editorial, and it seems Zeb Wells is the Person in the middle of it, getting a lot of the hate from fans while also having his arm twisted by editorial.
Marvel have had an issue with editors for a while now, in that there aren't that many at the Company and they are spread too thin, which sucks as I think Marvel is having a great period right now.
But out of all the editors, the only three I really know by name is Lowe, White and Brevoort, and say what you want about them, at least we know the directions they want the comics to go in. At least there is communication with the fans.

It's weird, but I think Marvel overthink Spider-Man too much. I think everyone overthinks him too much to the point we're at the stalemate we're in now.
I've said it before, Spider-Man to too big to fail, but also too big to succeed. I think we just have to accept facts that right now, the Character isn't in a good place, which is wild as the Spider-Man franchise is in the best place it could ever be.

The fact of the matter is, whether Wells' has the worst run or not isn't the problem, it's just a consequence of that problem. I don't think I've seen the Spider-Man fanbase happy since One More Day... and that was nearly 20 years ago.
We just have to accept that Marvel are never going to reverse it. And Marvel needs to stop teasing the fans by thinking they will. It's unhealthy for everyone involved.
I don't think it's a Wells problem or even a Lowe problem... heck I doubt it's even a Cebulski problem.
I think it's simply a marketing problem. Enrage the audience, get them to talk about it and then the sales go up. It works for some reason.
Maybe when the run is finished, we'll look back and think it's a great run, or maybe People will just forget about it and the things that are remembered will be in a top 10 list of worst Spider-Man stories somewhere.
There are better stories out there, not just with the Spider-man title slapped on it.
And it may seem hypocritical as I'm still buying it, there's still elements of the comic I like. I like the Tombstone stuff, I like the Ock stuff. It's all stuff I want to read from a Spider-Man comic
There's still good there, I just think recency bias is kicking in.

Idk about this this feels kind of like the give up approach; coming back into comics after Ultimates seeing the state now caught up I believe there's definitely room for change. Call me a shit optimist, but why cant I not believe in change. At the end of the day maybe I'm just too young, but I'm hopeful that we are gonna get Spiderman Runs that make people excited for the character not fuming with vitriol.

[Garlador]

Idk about this this feels kind of like the give up approach; coming back into comics after Ultimates seeing the state now caught up I believe there's definitely room for change. Call me a shit optimist, but why cant I not believe in change. At the end of the day maybe I'm just too young, but I'm hopeful that we are gonna get Spiderman Runs that make people excited for the character not fuming with vitriol.

And to echo what you’re saying…

This is how Superman and Flash fans felt a few years back. It was awful. Clark and Lois not married and hating each other. Wally’s marriage and kids retconned away. DC editorial openly saying that characters like Wally and Nightwing sucked and needed to be permanently killed, erased, or regressed back to “preserve the youth” of other heroes.

It SUCKED. We were miserable.

DC leadership changed. Today, Superman and Flash both have their marriages and kids back. The books are stronger and fun again.

So there’s no reason not to hope Spider-Man will get his happiness and marriage back once someone who cares about the character, history, and fans is in charge.

[Matt14teg]

And to echo what you’re saying…

This is how Superman and Flash fans felt a few years back. It was awful. Clark and Lois not married and hating each other. Wally’s marriage and kids retconned away. DC editorial openly saying that characters like Wally and Nightwing sucked and needed to be permanently killed, erased, or regressed back to “preserve the youth” of other heroes.

It SUCKED. We were miserable.

DC leadership changed. Today, Superman and Flash both have their marriages and kids back. The books are stronger and fun again.

So there’s no reason not to hope Spider-Man will get his happiness and marriage back once someone who cares about the character, history, and fans is in charge.

Exactly man (5+ - 10+) years a lot of these dudes definitely won't be there their nearing 60 and their retirement years or new careers & I do believe that this we can escape the cycle call it cope but I think we can believe.