Is the Zeb Wells run on Amazing Spider-Man the worst run in the history of ASM?

[Alex_Of_X]

On a basic craft level, this book is not fine. The year long mystery box arc ended with the (more than likely temporary) death of a superhero who was so completely disconnected from the story being told that people were surprised she was even involved.

Edit: Sales (or "orders to stores") are not a mark of quality and have nothing to do with the question of this thread.

Yea, that part sucked goats. A real blemish.

The rest is a rooting-tooting good time

[Coop]

I definitely don't agree that on a basic craft level the writing is fine here. Just looking at the execution of the "what Peter did" mystery. The way the characters all had to talk around the "mystery" for the first half of the run. For me at least, all that is really bad writing. And I think the resolution of the mystery and the ham fisting in of Kamala's death after a year of her being a nonfactor in the book is also poorly planned and executed. Even the hack scene of Peter having Kamala's mask doesn't make any sense if you think about it. He basically stole evidence from a stranger's corpse so he could have a sad private moment.

I also haven't found the action scenes particularly well crafted or exciting. The fights specifically have been really boring.

There's also a very poor balancing of nonsense humor and dramatic stakes. The run veeres from like over the top parody comedy in Dark Web to supposedly heart pounding and emotional with the Rabin stuff.

Speaking of poor craft, the Emissary, Rabin. None of these are well crafted or executed villains. They have inconsistent powers that change based on the needs of the story.

Couldn't disagree more about the quality of the writing here. I think this is textbook bad storytelling without even getting into the personal disagreements with the directions of most characters.

Even the first two issues of Beyond, my favorite stuff Zeb has done with Spidey are not imo great comics.

[Mister Mets]

On a basic craft level, this book is not fine. The year long mystery box arc ended with the (more than likely temporary) death of a superhero who was so completely disconnected from the story being told that people were surprised she was even involved.

Edit: Sales (or "orders to stores") are not a mark of quality and have nothing to do with the question of this thread.

On a basic craft level, I was thinking about how he writes action scenes or domestic scenes.

But killing off Ms. Marvel doesn't seem like evidence of poor craft. It's not the only event that happened in the story, and the main arguments are about the concept rather than that it was out of character for Ms. Marvel to die trying to save someone.

The sales discussions are more of an example of how some of the conversations about the book are toxic, and it's more about the behavior of fans than Wells or editorial.

[Matt14teg]

The whole story feel as though we were getting a watered down version of Wells vision; whether it was because it was permanent damage to the characters would've been made or he backs out of things last minute. It feels as though plot lines are never made coherent in a mystery that was supposed to be "WHAT PETER DID". Excusing that the tombstone stuff and other things are nice, just gets bogged down by this ugly ass melodrama plot. I had no feelings towards 26 where a "major character" dies and the added collateral of kids who held such a little impact that people couldn't be bothered to care.

Kamalas death is the real thing that almost cements what's completely wrong with the run; some arbitrary need to push the plot because of a movie & they didn't even give her screen time in the issue. Excusing this maybe we just move away from all this stuff that just turns into a slow drawl of a mid to good run with superhero antics. The stink is still prevalent & until the team addresses 26 its not going to go away.

[Garlador]

The whole story feel as though we were getting a watered down version of Wells vision; whether it was because it was permanent damage to the characters would've been made or he backs out of things last minute. It feels as though plot lines are never made coherent in a mystery that was supposed to be "WHAT PETER DID". Excusing that the tombstone stuff and other things are nice, just gets bogged down by this ugly ass melodrama plot. I had no feelings towards 26 where a "major character" dies and the added collateral of kids who held such a little impact that people couldn't be bothered to care.

Kamalas death is the real thing that almost cements what's completely wrong with the run; some arbitrary need to push the plot because of a movie & they didn't even give her screen time in the issue. Excusing this maybe we just move away from all this stuff that just turns into a slow drawl of a mid to good run with superhero antics. The stink is still prevalent & until the team addresses 26 its not going to go away.

I think you bring up a huge point.

The arc was sold as “What did Peter DO?” And the answer was dragged out for months and it ultimately was… nothing major at all.

This same arc “killed” two kids and I haven’t seen ANYONE upset about it. I’m certainly not. And I feel like I should be. The fact that it’s just a thing that happened that few care about is a testament to how badly the story is told. I felt NOTHING from the loss of two kids (three if you count Kamala).

I again look at Wally West. When his kids were lost, I was devastated. As much as I hated what “Heroes in Crisis” did to him, I was devastated by the reveal he was “responsible” for innocent deaths. I hated it, but I CARED. It was, at the VERY least, well-constructed.

Here, I don’t CARE anymore. Peter’s misery, Mary Jane’s behavior, dead kids… I feel nothing but emptiness and apathy alongside my disgust, because at least I could see what Tom King was trying to do in “Heroes in Crisis”. Here, there’s none of that talent or competence.

[blank]

I genuinely think if the run were to end after the wedding issue, it could easily be considered the worst run in Spider-Man's history, but because they have another year I voted that its merely one of the worst runs(Dead Languages definitely ranks as one of the worst story arcs btw), as I think there may still be a way for Wells to dig himself out of the pile of crap he buried himself in(he did write Hellions, lol).

I think you bring up a huge point.

The arc was sold as “What did Peter DO?” And the answer was dragged out for months and it ultimately was… nothing major at all.

This same arc “killed” two kids and I haven’t seen ANYONE upset about it. I’m certainly not. And I feel like I should be. The fact that it’s just a thing that happened that few care about is a testament to how badly the story is told. I felt NOTHING from the loss of two kids (three if you count Kamala).

I again look at Wally West. When his kids were lost, I was devastated. As much as I hated what “Heroes in Crisis” did to him, I was devastated by the reveal he was “responsible” for innocent deaths. I hated it, but I CARED. It was, at the VERY least, well-constructed.

Here, I don’t CARE anymore. Peter’s misery, Mary Jane’s behavior, dead kids… I feel nothing but emptiness and apathy alongside my disgust, because at least I could see what Tom King was trying to do in “Heroes in Crisis”. Here, there’s none of that talent or competence.

I completely agree with this.

[Xenon]

Amazing Spider-Man has a decent track record, so I get that it's not insulting to say that a run is below-average for the title. And discussions of the worst ASM runs aren't going to count mediocre satellite books, or filler issues.

On a basic craft level, it's fine. Wells knows how to write action sequences and conversations. John Romita Jr, Patrick Gleason and Ed McGuiness are exceptional artists. Romita Jr has easily drawn over a hundred Amazing Spider-Man issues (in addition to minis and satellite books), so that can be taken for granted.

The story seems to be intentional. There don't seem to be sudden shifts, or editorial overreach. The opposition mainly seems to be having a different vision for the character.

I get that some people aren't going to like the run, but some of the conversation about it seems toxic with people reading stuff into the story that isn't there about MJ's morals or why Paul can be compared to Nazis, and coming up with conspiratorial explanations for sales that somehow only apply to this one book.

I would strongly disagree with two parts of this.

1) Ther definitely feels like there was a sudden shift after teh first story arc. Things like Paul going to see Peter that's never followed up on, for instance, but biggest of all, the opening question "WHAT DID PETER DO?", which was implied to be something so horrible that even Aunt May and MJ didn't want to talk to him anymore. But the only thing he did was sacrifice his friendships to save MJ as soon as possible. MJ should be eternally grateful to him and Aunt May shouldn't have any negative feelings at all. These things have never actually be answered too. They're clear evidence that the plot shifted and shifted pretty dramatically at some point. I'd also point to the kids, again. Barring some explnation later on that they were secretly magically mind controlling MJ somehow, they served literally no purpose in the story and made no sense. It very much feels like initially Paul was just MJ's boyfriend, he had kids, and she was with him because Peter had allegedly done something so bad she dumped him. But for whatever reason that story didn't fly, so instead it just became MJ betrayed Peter and never loved him.
2) There's what's on the page and there's what the things on the page imply. MJ's morals are the latter camp. People see her as disloyal, heartless, and selfish because that's what she is based on what she does on the page. And because that's out of character, people object. She's absolutely the worst part of this run and the thing that drags it to the bottom, but it would be a bad run regardless for previously discussed reasons.

[Vegan]

The idea that there’s nothing wrong with the run from a craft perspective is just bizarre. Numerous posters above have gone through how the run’s hook fell flat on an insane level. The resolution to the plot with the debt collector is really one of the stupidest most nonsensical things I’ve ever read and smacks of a writer trying to bail out of a plot he randomly decided he didn’t want to deal with anymore.
The action scenes are almost uniformly terrible. Spider-Man shows up, does little, gets his ass beat, someone else saves the day. Repeat for 28 issues. (In fairness, the Tombstone and Hobgoblin fights were pretty solid).
The drama is awful because it’s all born out a plot that is completely ridiculous and so far removed from any actual human emotion. Everyone is behaving like an unpleasant asshole for no reason. Characters are killed off and no one feels anything because those characters are either so thin as to be nonexistent or have been so underserved by the story that it’s laughable.
It’s the worst run no doubt, and I don’t care how “suspicious” that makes anyone of me

[Mister Mets]

I would strongly disagree with two parts of this.

1) Ther definitely feels like there was a sudden shift after teh first story arc. Things like Paul going to see Peter that's never followed up on, for instance, but biggest of all, the opening question "WHAT DID PETER DO?", which was implied to be something so horrible that even Aunt May and MJ didn't want to talk to him anymore. But the only thing he did was sacrifice his friendships to save MJ as soon as possible. MJ should be eternally grateful to him and Aunt May shouldn't have any negative feelings at all. These things have never actually be answered too. They're clear evidence that the plot shifted and shifted pretty dramatically at some point. I'd also point to the kids, again. Barring some explnation later on that they were secretly magically mind controlling MJ somehow, they served literally no purpose in the story and made no sense. It very much feels like initially Paul was just MJ's boyfriend, he had kids, and she was with him because Peter had allegedly done something so bad she dumped him. But for whatever reason that story didn't fly, so instead it just became MJ betrayed Peter and never loved him.
2) There's what's on the page and there's what the things on the page imply. MJ's morals are the latter camp. People see her as disloyal, heartless, and selfish because that's what she is based on what she does on the page. And because that's out of character, people object. She's absolutely the worst part of this run and the thing that drags it to the bottom, but it would be a bad run regardless for previously discussed reasons.

1) It seems pretty clear that Wells meant to use Rabin as the explanation for what happened. A glowing man shows up at the end of Beyond and it's a villain from Wells' first arc on Amazing Spider-Man.
I think he knew the gist of the backstory in the most recent Amazing Spider-Man #1. Mary Jane & Peter were sent to a previously established alternate universe, where they meet Paul. Peter is forced out. He alienates his allies in the Marvel Universe to get the supplies needed to get her out. Time moved differently there, and while he was moving as intensely as he could, Mary Jane & Paul spend years together. They were the only people who could take care of two children, and Mary Jane doesn't want to break up the family. Readers won't know about this when they're reading the first few stories of the run, but I don't see any indication that Wells didn't.

I never thought Peter was going to do anything horrifying, especially if Aunt May knew the full context. But in superhero stories, the supporting cast often doesn't know the full context.

2) I'm in the MJ didn't do anything wrong camp. Absurd things happened, but she's not heartless or selfish. People prefer the character they know and who they know to be a decent human being to a new character.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ary-Jane-wrong

[Malachi]

I think you bring up a huge point.

The arc was sold as “What did Peter DO?” And the answer was dragged out for months and it ultimately was… nothing major at all.

This same arc “killed” two kids and I haven’t seen ANYONE upset about it. I’m certainly not. And I feel like I should be. The fact that it’s just a thing that happened that few care about is a testament to how badly the story is told. I felt NOTHING from the loss of two kids (three if you count Kamala).

I again look at Wally West. When his kids were lost, I was devastated. As much as I hated what “Heroes in Crisis” did to him, I was devastated by the reveal he was “responsible” for innocent deaths. I hated it, but I CARED. It was, at the VERY least, well-constructed.

Here, I don’t CARE anymore. Peter’s misery, Mary Jane’s behavior, dead kids… I feel nothing but emptiness and apathy alongside my disgust, because at least I could see what Tom King was trying to do in “Heroes in Crisis”. Here, there’s none of that talent or competence.

It's always worse when the craft behind the comic is good and you just don't agree with the use of characters and their actions. For instance I really disliked the way John's used Kyle Rayner during his Lantern run but it was a well crafted, seeded and paced blockbuster.

Here it's just so bad that you get angry at marvel. To produce something like this it takes more then one person who might have temporary cred with editorial.

That Zeb Wells seems as lost as we are with the plots is probably because he has stated that he is improvising much of it. If that is the way he wants to do this project then fun for him. Not the easiest way though =)

[blank]

1) It seems pretty clear that Wells meant to use Rabin as the explanation for what happened. A glowing man shows up at the end of Beyond and it's a villain from Wells' first arc on Amazing Spider-Man.
I think he knew the gist of the backstory in the most recent Amazing Spider-Man #1. Mary Jane & Peter were sent to a previously established alternate universe, where they meet Paul. Peter is forced out. He alienates his allies in the Marvel Universe to get the supplies needed to get her out. Time moved differently there, and while he was moving as intensely as he could, Mary Jane & Paul spend years together. They were the only people who could take care of two children, and Mary Jane doesn't want to break up the family. Readers won't know about this when they're reading the first few stories of the run, but I don't see any indication that Wells didn't.

I never thought Peter was going to do anything horrifying, especially if Aunt May knew the full context. But in superhero stories, the supporting cast often doesn't know the full context.

2) I'm in the MJ didn't do anything wrong camp. Absurd things happened, but she's not heartless or selfish. People prefer the character they know and who they know to be a decent human being to a new character.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ary-Jane-wrong

But another part of the argument is how she is treating Peter, which is unarguably heartless or selfish, considering she intentionally threw responsibility in his face when she didn't really feel any responsibility towards their relationship or even apologetic to what she was effectively doing to Peter(revealing she effective "cheated" and then was revealed that she knew Paul helped Rabin kill a world and then Paul killed his Rabin), its almost as if she never loved Peter at all(there no guilt for moving on or giving up on him or even empathy considering for him it was merely months, its almost as if her love for Peter was completely erased from her mind). What was selfish or heartless was also not telling him about Paul is the son of the villain/party to global genocide. I'm honestly hoping its revealed that it wasn't a romantic relationship with Paul because its vaguely sickening the whole trapped with one adult honestly removes the idea of choice(making it seem both creepy and a little on the side of manipulative).

[Daibhidh]

But killing off Ms. Marvel doesn't seem like evidence of poor craft. It's not the only event that happened in the story, and the main arguments are about the concept rather than that it was out of character for Ms. Marvel to die trying to save someone.

Let's assume that you are a new comic fan or you're not much interested in comics beyond Spider-man or so on. You may be vaguely aware that Ms Marvel is a character and you've looked her up on the internet. Why do you care that this particular character has died trying to save someone? Even if the writer assumes that the readers do care about Kamala already, they should still reinforce that. They should give Kamala some character moments in the run, show her making dramatic decisions, and so on. They should show her interacting with her friends and family. The reader may already care about Kamala, but it's just good writing to remind them why they care. And it's lazy and cynical writing to just take it for granted that they do care.

(One of the best comic deaths ever is the first death of Jean Grey. That may actually work as well as it does just because the death was forced on the script at the last second by Shooter. Claremont had been writing it on the assumption that Scott and Jean would retire together, which meant he was setting that up as the happy ending. Claremont works to show that he's as apparently invested in the characters as he wants the readers to be.)

The whole bait-and-switch with Mary Jane is also poorly judged. This is a Spider-man comic and Mary Jane is probably the most popular female character in this comic. No matter how popular Kamala is with fandom as a whole, it's reasonable to suppose that in the Amazing Spider-man Mary Jane is the more popular character. So if you do a bait-and-switch as they did, at some level the readers are going to be relieved that it wasn't MJ, and that runs counter to the emotional weight of Kamala's death.

If you wanted it to look like a cynical and lazy stunt for the shock value, rather than like a carefully crafted story trying to evoke pathos or tragedy, you'd write it like they did.

[Knightsilver]

I went with "one of the worst". But with another year to go...I'm sure it will continue fighting for the top spot.

[FFJamie94]

Idk about this this feels kind of like the give up approach; coming back into comics after Ultimates seeing the state now caught up I believe there's definitely room for change. Call me a shit optimist, but why cant I not believe in change. At the end of the day maybe I'm just too young, but I'm hopeful that we are gonna get Spiderman Runs that make people excited for the character not fuming with vitriol.

Change will certainly come, but not for the next few years, maybe even decades.
I got into comics through the Ultimate Universe and over the last 20 years, I've seen a lot of changes over those years. Heck, even in the last 10 years we've seen a radical shift. The problem mostly comes down to that Spider-man has had the same lingering issues since One More Day, a comic which has sadly become the most important Spider-Man event in the history of the comic.
Marvel have never really been able to get around it, even through for many years they managed to move past it.

I think there needs to be a change in control in the Spider offices. At least with ASM, every other comic under the Spider Offices has been pretty great. The Miles comic, Venom/Symbiote line, it's all been good.

Change is coming, it may not happen for a while through.

M'dude, you get it.

comic's good

I mean, just looking having a brief look at the Spider-Man boards, half of the threads are essentially about the same topic.
It's tiring.

[clonegeek]

Change will certainly come, but not for the next few years, maybe even decades.
I got into comics through the Ultimate Universe and over the last 20 years, I've seen a lot of changes over those years. Heck, even in the last 10 years we've seen a radical shift. The problem mostly comes down to that Spider-man has had the same lingering issues since One More Day, a comic which has sadly become the most important Spider-Man event in the history of the comic.
Marvel have never really been able to get around it, even through for many years they managed to move past it.

I think there needs to be a change in control in the Spider offices. At least with ASM, every other comic under the Spider Offices has been pretty great. The Miles comic, Venom/Symbiote line, it's all been good.

Change is coming, it may not happen for a while through.



I mean, just looking having a brief look at the Spider-Man boards, half of the threads are essentially about the same topic.
It's tiring.

I do think that Disney is going to be laying some of the Marvel Comics stuff off soon.