Editorial and the Public Opinion Court of Spiderman comics?

[Matt14teg]

That would be a narrative reason not to kill her off in a comic book about Spider-Man.

Yeah to say it isn't a ploy marketing wise will always to me feel like a weak argument at best.

[blank]

Marvel's not trying to tank the book.

If they were, you wouldn't have John Romita Jr or Ed McGuinness on art.

I honestly don't think having JRJR as an artist in the last ten years is really a sign of not wanting to tank the book, considering how sloppy and inhuman his art has looked in the Spider-Man and in his other work(I think at one point I dropped Action Comics or Superman, at least in part because he was the artist for it and it looked extremely bad) but again art is subjective, don't really know all that much about Ed McGuinness as an artist but his work does look to be of fairly high quality(also I don't that they were using bad artists for X-Men for years despite tanking their narrative). Art at least to me generally shouldn't be the main draw to a comic, unless you're a collector who just wants the all of the different covers.

[Alex_Of_X]

I honestly don't think having JRJR as an artist in the last ten years is really a sign of not wanting to tank the book, considering how sloppy and inhuman his art has looked in the Spider-Man and in his other work(I think at one point I dropped Action Comics or Superman, at least in part because he was the artist for it and it looked extremely bad) but again art is subjective, don't really know all that much about Ed McGuinness as an artist but his work does look to be of fairly high quality(also I don't that they were using bad artists for X-Men for years despite tanking their narrative). Art at least to me generally shouldn't be the main draw to a comic, unless you're a collector who just wants the all of the different covers.

We don't really hype up art on the threads, but we should!

In gamer parlance, JRJR\McGuiness is an AAA artistic team. Both have launched big, ambitions, successful books: JRJR did ASM with JMS\Avengers with Bendis\Cap with Remender. He drew on AvX and World War Hulk. He's a draw, a fan fave. McGuinness launched Hulk with Loeb and Avengers with Aaron. Behemoth books, all.

An artist is an asset in many ways. A good artist doubly so. I would hazard to guess that the paycheck that JRJR\McGuiness get per issue exceeds that of a relative Big 2 newcomer, like Carlos Gomez. They cost more, so in return the book should sell more to offset the spending.

Simply put, a badly selling book would not keep JRJR\McGuiness. If they were bleeding money, Marvel would move both to different books to 1) have a new, cheaper artist to finish out the story 2) have JRJR\McGuiness do other books to boost their sales.

As of now, not only are JRJR\McGuiness staying put, but the fill-in guys they're getting are out of this world. Nick Dragotta! Terry Dodson! Kaare Andrews! Patrick Gleason?!! Primo guys.

we should worry about ASM sales when we start getting artists whose names we don't recognize

[Mister Mets]

We don't really hype up art on the threads, but we should!

In gamer parlance, JRJR\McGuiness is an AAA artistic team. Both have launched big, ambitions, successful books: JRJR did ASM with JMS\Avengers with Bendis\Cap with Remender. He drew on AvX and World War Hulk. He's a draw, a fan fave. McGuinness launched Hulk with Loeb and Avengers with Aaron. Behemoth books, all.

An artist is an asset in many ways. A good artist doubly so. I would hazard to guess that the paycheck that JRJR\McGuiness get per issue exceeds that of a relative Big 2 newcomer, like Carlos Gomez. They cost more, so in return the book should sell more to offset the spending.

Simply put, a badly selling book would not keep JRJR\McGuiness. If they were bleeding money, Marvel would move both to different books to 1) have a new, cheaper artist to finish out the story 2) have JRJR\McGuiness do other books to boost their sales.

As of now, not only are JRJR\McGuiness staying put, but the fill-in guys they're getting are out of this world. Nick Dragotta! Terry Dodson! Kaare Andrews! Patrick Gleason?!! Primo guys.

we should worry about ASM sales when we start getting artists whose names we don't recognize

Plus the argument wasn't that the book is failing, but that they are intentionally tanking the book because of Sony.

This is objectively false, though. We know what "white guys getting killed" looks like. They typically die in their own title or mini, have a prominent role prior to their death (typically appear for more than 12 pages), die around their loved ones or receive a funeral from them immediately after, are not teased as celebrations of major past fridging in comics, are not done at inappropriate times the way Kamala was killed during AAPI Month, and are not solely done to make other characters sad. None of the other deaths have these characteristics.

Unless you're talking about Wells and Lowe specifically, and what they would have done. In that case, "They would have treated other heroes with the same amount of disrespect" is still not a good defense.



You're missing the point that Kamala's death is uniquely callous even by standard superhero deaths, and that it reinforces the notion that female POC characters are there to just die for white male characters.



Wouldn't be a problem in the first place if Wells didn't callously kill her like that for shock value.



You're showing a lack of empathy for Kamala when you imply things like "she should know better" and "if you don't want to die, don't be a superhero".



It's an argument for why they were irresponsible, which is also a topic important to Spider-Man. Also, we know that it was Wells' decision and Lowe approved it. We know because they confirmed it. Therefore they have to own it if people are pissed and it's in poor taste (which it is).



What's on the page of the comic book is incredibly tone-deaf and in poor taste, for reasons already explained by me and many others when Wells' stunt made mainstream news.

I was talking about Wells and Lowe. There are some claims about their morals in particular.

Anything that marketing decided is not on them.

As for a lack of empathy for Kamala, I just don't get the idea that it's more moral to depict her death in a situation where she's with loved ones. Real people sometimes die alone. For me, I don't get the idea that this should be sanitized.

[Matt14teg]

We don't really hype up art on the threads, but we should!

In gamer parlance, JRJR\McGuiness is an AAA artistic team. Both have launched big, ambitions, successful books: JRJR did ASM with JMS\Avengers with Bendis\Cap with Remender. He drew on AvX and World War Hulk. He's a draw, a fan fave. McGuinness launched Hulk with Loeb and Avengers with Aaron. Behemoth books, all.

An artist is an asset in many ways. A good artist doubly so. I would hazard to guess that the paycheck that JRJR\McGuiness get per issue exceeds that of a relative Big 2 newcomer, like Carlos Gomez. They cost more, so in return the book should sell more to offset the spending.

Simply put, a badly selling book would not keep JRJR\McGuiness. If they were bleeding money, Marvel would move both to different books to 1) have a new, cheaper artist to finish out the story 2) have JRJR\McGuiness do other books to boost their sales.

As of now, not only are JRJR\McGuiness staying put, but the fill-in guys they're getting are out of this world. Nick Dragotta! Terry Dodson! Kaare Andrews! Patrick Gleason?!! Primo guys.

we should worry about ASM sales when we start getting artists whose names we don't recognize

I mean I love them tbh, but I wouldn't be mad if they got new artists. Allows for some interesting art pieces with different perspectives. That said ed is the goat imo.

[Matt14teg]

Plus the argument wasn't that the book is failing, but that they are intentionally tanking the book because of Sony.

I was talking about Wells and Lowe. There are some claims about their morals in particular.

Anything that marketing decided is not on them.

As for a lack of empathy for Kamala, I just don't get the idea that it's more moral to depict her death in a situation where she's with loved ones. Real people sometimes die alone. For me, I don't get the idea that this should be sanitized.

I'm of very little mind their arms were super twisted especially wells who works on the movie. To me they wanna take the accolades on doing it, then they defienly hold blame in that regard.

[CaptainUniverse]

I mean I love them tbh, but I wouldn't be mad if they got new artists. Allows for some interesting art pieces with different perspectives. That said ed is the goat imo.

I wonder what a Spider-Man cartoon done in the Ed McGuiness style would be like, probably really crazy, off the wall kind of stuff.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I was talking about Wells and Lowe. There are some claims about their morals in particular.

No one is claiming anything about their morals. It's possible for a piece of work to be problematic and in poor taste, and for the people behind it to be "good guys" in real life.

Anything that marketing decided is not on them.

Them and Cebulski were the ones who teased MJ's death and marketed it as an anniversary celebration of Gwen's fridging. That wasn't some entity outside of the Spider-Office.

As for a lack of empathy for Kamala, I just don't get the idea that it's more moral to depict her death in a situation where she's with loved ones. Real people sometimes die alone. For me, I don't get the idea that this should be sanitized.

Not "more moral". Less problematic and callous.

Superhero deaths when done right should be celebratory of who the character is and of their mythos. That's how they usually are for the white dudes that "die" (and later come back). They're not used as plot devices either.

[Alan2099]

I wonder what a Spider-Man cartoon done in the Ed McGuiness style would be like

I don't know what it would look like, but I'd like to find out.

[WebLurker]

They believed that they were doing what's best for the long-term prospects of the series.

And where are we today? With one of the most anti-brand status quos in the medium that's pretty darn irrelevant to the franchi.

One question on whether the death of Ms. Marvel is sexist and racist is whether they wouldn't do the same thing to a white male, especially if there was interest in retconning the character to bring them in line with how they are in the MCU.

Irrelevant; whatever the context, Ms. Marvel was fridged. Even if they bring her back or were planning to overhaul the character, that doesn't change the circumstances of the original story or erase the sexism and/or racism the story unfortunately deals in.

[CaptainUniverse]

I don't know what it would look like, but I'd like to find out.

It would be so cool. I think the way McGuiness excels at wacky, cartoon-y visuals would really make a Spider-Man cartoon (or any cartoon for that matter) really stand out amongst its peers. I don't know if Wells' run is the only time McGuiness has done Spider-Man art like this. I couldn't find anything else.

[DT Winslow]

And where are we today?

At the top of the charts.

15 years isn’t long term. They’re thinking 50 years, 100 years down the line. The idea is that Spider-Man the comic book will still be published long after the 53rd reboot in the movies or in an animated show. Long after we’re all dead.

[Kurus]

One hundred years down the line and Spider-Man’s public domain. Which could majorly change the equation.

[godisawesome]

American comics dying as an industry while their IPs carry on is more likely than their IPs passing into public domain; and that’s where the current run being at the top of a shrinking industry becomes important in some ways and totally negligible in others.

Spider-Man sold well for the market before OMD happened and even well before the first of editorials numerous plots to get rid of the wedding, and Spider-Man has sold well for the market after OMD. Top selling “headliner” books have some elasticity for their quality and content, but are also nearly impervious in the long run in comparison to other market books… but are also helpless before market attrition.

Meanwhile, it seems like Batman and Superman are still going strong even though they’ve both been progressed to early 40’s fatherhood at minimum - and both have added more positively to their personal character legacies because of that (since Superman now has a show featuring him doing that and Batman has an upcoming movie featuring that)

It’s never really been more than personal taste that argues Peter can’t be married or started a family; there’s never been any evidence that married heroes having kids have actually hurt comic sales.

[Tuck]

It’s never really been more than personal taste that argues Peter can’t be married or started a family; there’s never been any evidence that married heroes having kids have actually hurt comic sales.

Back in the 90s, when I remember hearing the first murmurs about writers wanting the marriage gone, the complaint was simply that married Peter was more difficult to write stories for. All these other arguments came later.

That original complaint is probably the real reason beyond all the buttressing.