Current Spider-Man Sales

[Alan2099]

Why would what one character does need to represent how different people do things differently? Why can't it just be "that's what that character does"?

It seems you're less interested in treating disabled people as people and more interested in focusing on how they're disabled.

[Alex_Of_X]

Remember, there are two types of people in this world:

1. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete information

circling back to say this is an all-time bit. hooted, hollered

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a wheelchair user created a problematic wheelchair using character? And that a wheelchair using writer wrote a problematic story with that wheelchair using character?



I'd like to know too.

The headline in the image Ulysian_Thracs posted tells us exactly three things about Sun-Spider:

1. The character is a woman
2. The character is a lesbian
3. The character is a wheelchair user

So does Ulysian_Thracs take issue with the character being a woman, the character being a lesbian, the character being a wheelchair user, or the combination of those attributes?

From an artistic standpoint, absolutely none of them. She might be a well-written, three dimensional character in an interesting, coherent and consistently plotted story. In which case, great, have at it! A great writer can tell a great story with any character. (Though, in my experience, she probably won't be any of those things. When they do 'stunt casting' like this, I find they tend to make the character little more than the sum of their demographic, demeaning everyone involved.)

But this thread is about sales; the business of comics. And no matter how amazing this character is, or how well written it is, the vast majority of comic book readers will never know because they're not buying this book with this hero. And that's the point I was making. By all the accounts I've read, sales are probably the worst they've ever been across the board, including ASM. Less people are buying comic books practically by the week. So, which genius decided the best way to turn that around was to FEATURE a character who connects to what...3% of the readership? Maybe?

And it relates to a larger trend in Marvel (and DC, for that matter). They've driven off perhaps a solid 60% of the audience they had a decade or two ago by dedicating most of their attention to All New, All Different characters when the vast majority of people who (used to) read comics just wanted to see the same heroes they grew up with. Or, even worse, they bring in writers to deconstruct and destroy heroes the readers did love, shoving away fans. It's almost like they don't want a solid half of the potential audience to have any reason to spend their money on Marvel comics.

Forget the politics of it. Focus on the business. Honest questions...who exactly is this book marketed towards? How is it expected to be successful and improve sales given the titular hero?

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[DT Winslow]

From an artistic standpoint, absolutely none of them. She might be a well-written, three dimensional character in an interesting, coherent and consistently plotted story. In which case, great, have at it! A great writer can tell a great story with any character. (Though, in my experience, she probably won't be any of those things. When they do 'stunt casting' like this, I find they tend to make the character little more than the sum of their demographic, demeaning everyone involved.)

But this thread is about sales; the business of comics. And no matter how amazing this character is, or how well written it is, the vast majority of comic book readers will never know because they're not buying this book with this hero. And that's the point I was making. By all the accounts I've read, sales are probably the worst they've ever been across the board, including ASM. Less people are buying comic books practically by the week. So, which genius decided the best way to turn that around was to FEATURE a character who connects to what...3% of the readership? Maybe?

And it relates to a larger trend in Marvel (and DC, for that matter). They've driven off perhaps a solid 60% of the audience they had a decade or two ago by dedicating most of their attention to All New, All Different characters when the vast majority of people who (used to) read comics just wanted to see the same heroes they grew up with. Or, even worse, they bring in writers to deconstruct and destroy heroes the readers did love, shoving away fans. It's almost like they don't want a solid half of the potential audience to have any reason to spend their money on Marvel comics.

Forget the politics of it. Focus on the business. Honest questions...who exactly is this book marketed towards? How is it expected to be successful and improve sales given the titular hero?

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I think you have a smidgen of a point there but using one of the Spider-Verse characters doesn’t help get that across. 99% of these Edge of Spider-Verse characters are exactly like this. They’re quick little creations that no one expects to exist past their debut appearance. Every once in a while one of them might catch on in a greater capacity. See: Spider-Gwen.

The ANAD period can definitely be applied to your point. Replacing a great deal of favorite characters all at the same time with a wide variety of demographics could alienate readers.

But, and I mean this as nicely as possible, if anyone is truly put off by Jane Foster as Thor or Sam Wilson as Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel or any other example, comics doesn’t need them.

Direct market sales could be the best they’ve ever been or they could be in the toilet, I don’t give a ****. It’s more important to spread beyond the DM and at least the big three companies are trying. Leaving Diamond was a great start. Comics needs new readers and new avenues, not the leftovers of the 90s. The direct market needs to die for comics to live.

[Celgress]

This data is based on sales and not pre-orders....

By "sales" are these confirmed sales to individual customers or sales to stores? This is the distinction that is the vital part I believe. Are many of the books likely collecting dust on comic book store racks or are they at home with readers?

[DT Winslow]

By "sales" are these confirmed sales to individual customers or sales to stores? This is the distinction that is the vital part I believe. Are many of the books likely collecting dust on comic book store racks or are they at home with readers?

Yes, it’s point of sale data to the end consumer.

[Mister Mets]

Yes, it’s point of sale data to the end consumer.

Yup.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a wheelchair user created a problematic wheelchair using character? And that a wheelchair using writer wrote a problematic story with that wheelchair using character?



I'd like to know too.

The headline in the image Ulysian_Thracs posted tells us exactly three things about Sun-Spider:

1. The character is a woman
2. The character is a lesbian
3. The character is a wheelchair user

So does Ulysian_Thracs take issue with the character being a woman, the character being a lesbian, the character being a wheelchair user, or the combination of those attributes?

It may seem like the combination sets some kind of weird political messages.

On the other hand, if there are a million American spider-people, half will be women, 12 percent will be black, roughly 4 percent will be LGBTQ+ and about 20 percent will be disabled. So you'd have 480 gay disabled black Spider-women.

This does get me to think that while people would like to see specific aspects of themselves represented in Spider-Men, there should be a gay Peter Parker.

In some Spider-Verse crossover, there's a version of Spider-Man who realizes that most of the others are straight and considers the implications.

In his world, some things went differently. He had a crush on Flash, which made the dynamic weird with Flash's idolation of Spider-Man. He might even have decided to reveal his secret identity to Flash, who handled it maturely all things considered.

Maybe he never met the Osborns because he didn't go to Hollywood in Amazing Spider-Man #14 and the Green Goblin is one of the Hulk's enemies.

And he has a very different relationship with Iceman.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

I think you have a smidgen of a point there but using one of the Spider-Verse characters doesn’t help get that across. 99% of these Edge of Spider-Verse characters are exactly like this. They’re quick little creations that no one expects to exist past their debut appearance. Every once in a while one of them might catch on in a greater capacity. See: Spider-Gwen.

The ANAD period can definitely be applied to your point. Replacing a great deal of favorite characters all at the same time with a wide variety of demographics could alienate readers.

But, and I mean this as nicely as possible, if anyone is truly put off by Jane Foster as Thor or Sam Wilson as Captain America or a Muslim Ms. Marvel or any other example, comics doesn’t need them.

Direct market sales could be the best they’ve ever been or they could be in the toilet, I don’t give a ****. It’s more important to spread beyond the DM and at least the big three companies are trying. Leaving Diamond was a great start. Comics needs new readers and new avenues, not the leftovers of the 90s. The direct market needs to die for comics to live.

Put off is probably too strong. But uninterested? Certainly. Not willing to spend my money on the replacements of the characters I love? Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I prefer my Thor to be the original, and my Cap will always be Steve Rogers. Most of that is probably nostalgia from growing up with them. But there is also certainly a connection I have with characters I see myself in better than ones I see myself less in. That's not passing judgement on people who prefer Jane Foster or Sam Wilson, and I certainly understand if someone of a different demographic wants to see more of themselves in a character. It's only natural, regardless of the demographic in question. We all look for ourselves in characters, and we all find it in other places. I will never be offended that someone spends their money where they see fit.

And I respectfully disagree that 'comics doesn't need' people who prefer the originals. Comics sales are in the toilet because of the writers and the editors thought this. The MCU is tanking because the producers thought this. Hell, Disney as a whole is sinking because their executives think this. The cardinal rule of business is know your customer. Some companies can survive purposefully alienating half their audience. Nike is fine 'going woke'. Most conservatives don't wear Nikes unless they were on sale at the Payless, as opposed to the sneakerheads paying thousands for a specific ballplayer's signature shoe. Bud Light...well, we all saw that one coming, didn't we.

Again, it's not really political to me. It's business. When you are selling a product as expensive to make as Marvel/Disney content, it simply doesn't make sense to purposefully alienate half your audience from the get-go. Or to create main characters that simply don't have good appeal. It seems almost self-defeating.

Yup.

It may seem like the combination sets some kind of weird political messages.

On the other hand, if there are a million American spider-people, half will be women, 12 percent will be black, roughly 4 percent will be LGBTQ+ and about 20 percent will be disabled. So you'd have 480 gay disabled black Spider-women.

This does get me to think that while people would like to see specific aspects of themselves represented in Spider-Men, there should be a gay Peter Parker.

In some Spider-Verse crossover, there's a version of Spider-Man who realizes that most of the others are straight and considers the implications.

In his world, some things went differently. He had a crush on Flash, which made the dynamic weird with Flash's idolation of Spider-Man. He might even have decided to reveal his secret identity to Flash, who handled it maturely all things considered.

Maybe he never met the Osborns because he didn't go to Hollywood in Amazing Spider-Man #14 and the Green Goblin is one of the Hulk's enemies.

And he has a very different relationship with Iceman.

I'm thinking something like Miraculous Ladybug, which my kids love. Marionette (Ladybug) has a crush on Adrien (who she doesn't know is really Cat Noir), while Adrien has a crush on Ladybug (who he doesn't know is Marinette).

[Celgress]

Yes, it’s point of sale data to the end consumer.

Thanks, I wanted to be sure.

Still, it is sad comic book issues once routinely sold in the millions per month and now that milestone is extremely rare. Also, when you take into account that the population was smaller then their market penetration was much greater akin to what Manga is doing today, especially with younger readers.

[clonegeek]

Thanks, I wanted to be sure.

Still, it is sad comic book issues once routinely sold in the millions per month and now that milestone is extremely rare. Also, when you take into account that the population was smaller then their market penetration was much greater akin to what Manga is doing today, especially with younger readers.

It doesn't help that they are really bad at keeping things in print.

I am curious though, what the actual number of comic shops are. In this case defined as selling new comics every week.

[Kurus]

Thanks, I wanted to be sure.

Still, it is sad comic book issues once routinely sold in the millions per month and now that milestone is extremely rare. Also, when you take into account that the population was smaller then their market penetration was much greater akin to what Manga is doing today, especially with younger readers.

The speculator bubble screwed this industry so hard. I don’t think it’s ever really recovered.

[clonegeek]

The speculator bubble screwed this industry so hard. I don’t think it’s ever really recovered.

The greatest damage that the 90s did to comics was making them something to collect rather then to read.

[Lee]

From an artistic standpoint, absolutely none of them. She might be a well-written, three dimensional character in an interesting, coherent and consistently plotted story. In which case, great, have at it! A great writer can tell a great story with any character. (Though, in my experience, she probably won't be any of those things. When they do 'stunt casting' like this, I find they tend to make the character little more than the sum of their demographic, demeaning everyone involved.)

But this thread is about sales; the business of comics. And no matter how amazing this character is, or how well written it is, the vast majority of comic book readers will never know because they're not buying this book with this hero. And that's the point I was making. By all the accounts I've read, sales are probably the worst they've ever been across the board, including ASM. Less people are buying comic books practically by the week. So, which genius decided the best way to turn that around was to FEATURE a character who connects to what...3% of the readership? Maybe?

And it relates to a larger trend in Marvel (and DC, for that matter). They've driven off perhaps a solid 60% of the audience they had a decade or two ago by dedicating most of their attention to All New, All Different characters when the vast majority of people who (used to) read comics just wanted to see the same heroes they grew up with. Or, even worse, they bring in writers to deconstruct and destroy heroes the readers did love, shoving away fans. It's almost like they don't want a solid half of the potential audience to have any reason to spend their money on Marvel comics.

Forget the politics of it. Focus on the business. Honest questions...who exactly is this book marketed towards? How is it expected to be successful and improve sales given the titular hero?

This is some absolute bullshit.

Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) #4 was one of Marvel's best selling comics that month: https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...september-2022

The Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) mini-series sold so well that Marvel went ahead with a follow-up series for 2023: https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1659903550145589250

None of the Edge of Spider-Verse characters were designed to replace other characters, or expected to launch into ongoing series (but if any did take off, like Spider-Gwen, that would be a big bonus). Sun-Spider's story was just one of four stories in Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) #4.

The Spider-Verse animated movie team team saw enough value in the character, from her very brief 2020 comic appearance, to give her a small speaking role in Across the Spider-Verse. Marvel would have known about this when deciding which characters should be featured in the Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) mini-series. Sun-Spider was also part of the hero team in the End of Spider-Verse story that Edge of Spider-Verse led into.

You can talk about the struggles the comic industry is currently facing all you want, but getting up in arms about a disabled lesbian super-hero starring in a 6 page story in an anthology mini-series (that sold well) is a you problem.

[Celgress]

.....Again, it's not really political to me. It's business. When you are selling a product as expensive to make as Marvel/Disney content, it simply doesn't make sense to purposefully alienate half your audience from the get-go. Or to create main characters that simply don't have good appeal. It seems almost self-defeating.



I'm thinking something like Miraculous Ladybug, which my kids love. Marionette (Ladybug) has a crush on Adrien (who she doesn't know is really Cat Noir), while Adrien has a crush on Ladybug (who he doesn't know is Marinette).

Miraculous is a fun little show. I used to watch it regularly back in 2015 when it first came out but I guess I outgrow it as I aged. Still, it is a nice throwback to early superhero comic books in terms of characters and tone.

[Dan Slott]

This is some absolute bullshit.

Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) #4 was one of Marvel's best selling comics that month: https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...september-2022

The Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) mini-series sold so well that Marvel went ahead with a follow-up series for 2023: https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1659903550145589250

None of the Edge of Spider-Verse characters were designed to replace other characters, or expected to launch into ongoing series (but if any did take off, like Spider-Gwen, that would be a big bonus). Sun-Spider's story was just one of four stories in Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) #4.

The Spider-Verse animated movie team team saw enough value in the character, from her very brief 2020 comic appearance, to give her a small speaking role in Across the Spider-Verse. Marvel would have known about this when deciding which characters should be featured in the Edge of Spider-Verse (2022) mini-series. Sun-Spider was also part of the hero team in the End of Spider-Verse story that Edge of Spider-Verse led into.

You can talk about the struggles the comic industry is currently facing all you want, but getting up in arms about a disabled lesbian super-hero starring in a 6 page story in an anthology mini-series (that sold well) is a you problem.

If this were social media I'd attach a gif of an audience applauding here.