Jack Kirby claiming Stan Lee never wrote anything …disturbing article from 1990

[KurtW95]

Can we hold on a minute? People are now saying that Stan was lying and wrong if he had ever said that he created all the characters himself. But this whole thread is in relation to Kirby possibly saying he created all the characters himself.

[Alan2099]

Can we hold on a minute? People are now saying that Stan was lying and wrong if he had ever said that he created all the characters himself. But this whole thread is in relation to Kirby possibly saying he created all the characters himself.

Whenever these conversations come up, there's always somebody that keeps insisting Stan was Satan and Kirby never did a single thing that was even questionable.

[Darkshadow]

Can we hold on a minute? People are now saying that Stan was lying and wrong if he had ever said that he created all the characters himself. But this whole thread is in relation to Kirby possibly saying he created all the characters himself.

Yep, you're reading it all right. I don't believe either of them. Most Lee fans (who are also Kirby fans) concede he probably didn't do it all, but that's not enough for the rabid Kirby fans who insist YOU must insist he did all of it.

[JackDaw]

Yep, you're reading it all right. I don't believe either of them. Most Lee fans (who are also Kirby fans) concede he probably didn't do it all, but that's not enough for the rabid Kirby fans who insist YOU must insist he did all of it.

Blimey, that straw man gets a good kicking!

[Darkshadow]

Blimey, that straw man gets a good kicking!

Yet here you are, incessantly responding to every perceived detractor to the Kirby immaculate conception theory.

None of us are getting royalties, but only a couple of you act like you have personal assets to defend. I really don't care, but observing irony is a great passtime of mine. If it starts slowing down, I'll poke it because you'll always feed it.

[JackDaw]

Yet here you are, incessantly responding to every perceived detractor to the Kirby immaculate conception theory.

None of us are getting royalties, but only a couple of you act like you have personal assets to defend. I really don't care, but observing irony is a great passtime of mine. If it starts slowing down, I'll poke it because you'll always feed it.

Where have I put Stan was "Satan"? Or "Kirby did all the Creative effort"? Or said Stan was lying?

Yet apparently these were all things that "rabid Kirby fans" do.

That's why I suggested a straw man was being battled.

[Kirby101]

I also never said Stan was Satan or did nothing, or that Kirby did all the effort. I think I was quite clear several times on how I see the work divided. But apparently saying "most of the workload" is the same as saying Stan did nothing.
I did say Stan lied, as in the video where he retells how he alone came up with Spider-Man when seeing a fly on the wall. Since we have documented evidence of the origins of Spider-Man, including Kirby's non-teenager hero and the earlier Magic Ring/Captain Marvel idea, we know the character did not start with this fabricated "ah-ha" moment. The same way we know Dr. Strange did not come about from Stan's memories of a Magician in the newspaper comics. Or that he came up the FF when his wife told him to create something bold. These all all fabrications that deny the artist, who actually came up with most of the concepts, their due.
Stan is famous for saying his memory is faulty, a convenient tack when his stories don't add up.
But all some have is to disparage those who present the factual evidence.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Ed Piskor and Jim Rugg discuss the latest Stan Lee Documentary on their show Cartoonist Kayfabe. They are artists first all the way but that just might be how the Marvel method works. I will say this, I am reading the Kirby Lee FF and the way the book adds characters, The Black Panther, The Frightful Four, The Inhumans, The Kree, it reads like Kirby’s New Gods where the universe keeps getting bigger. It feels like Kirby’s storytelling. In the FF masterworks book, there is a short FF comic, 100% Kirby anccording to the credits, it reads like a Not Brand Ecch story, Kirby draws the fictional bullpen, and he draws Stan as a co storyteller. I think Stan shared ideas, maybe even character names, but I think a lot of the creative heavy lifting is the artist.

[Iron Maiden]

I also never said Stan was Satan or did nothing, or that Kirby did all the effort. I think I was quite clear several times on how I see the work divided. But apparently saying "most of the workload" is the same as saying Stan did nothing.
I did say Stan lied, as in the video where he retells how he alone came up with Spider-Man when seeing a fly on the wall. Since we have documented evidence of the origins of Spider-Man, including Kirby's non-teenager hero and the earlier Magic Ring/Captain Marvel idea, we know the character did not start with this fabricated "ah-ha" moment. The same way we know Dr. Strange did not come about from Stan's memories of a Magician in the newspaper comics. Or that he came up the FF when his wife told him to create something bold. These all all fabrications that deny the artist, who actually came up with most of the concepts, their due.
Stan is famous for saying his memory is faulty, a convenient tack when his stories don't add up.
But all some have is to disparage those who present the factual evidence.

I think you are forgetting one major fact when talking about Stan's input on Spider-Man. Stan wasn't telling a lie when he said he came up with Spider-Man. All accounts say that Stan did come to Jack Kirby with the idea of a teen-aged hero. Kirby then drew his concept of it but Stan rejected it because that wasn't what he wanted. I posted the comparison earlier. Stan believed that Kirby's version was too heroic so then he went to Steve Ditko with the concept. Stan's idea did not just include the spider concept but the idea of a teen-ager who was not just the sidekick to the hero. Once the series was launched, Ditko did add more of the visual aspects of Spider-Man but he did not come up with the original idea.

Obviously, Stan didn't do the art so he was always going to be working in concert with an artist. But as writer/editor of the entire line at the time he did have input on everything. It's not always easy to sort out the percentage of work done between the artist and the writer.

BTW, in an interview on the BBC from 2007 Stan Lee said "If Steve (Ditko) wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves it." He also commented that Ditko's costume design was the key to Spider-Man's success in an interview with Roy Thomas in Alter Ego #108 (April 2012)

[JackDaw]

I think you are forgetting one major fact when talking about Stan's input on Spider-Man. Stan wasn't telling a lie when he said he came up with Spider-Man. All accounts say that Stan did come to Jack Kirby with the idea of a teen-aged hero. Kirby then drew his concept of it but Stan rejected it because that wasn't what he wanted. I posted the comparison earlier. Stan believed that Kirby's version was too heroic so then he went to Steve Ditko with the concept. Stan's idea did not just include the spider concept but the idea of a teen-ager who was not just the sidekick to the hero. Once the series was launched, Ditko did add more of the visual aspects of Spider-Man but he did not come up with the original idea.

Obviously, Stan didn't do the art so he was always going to be working in concert with an artist. But as writer/editor of the entire line at the time he did have input on everything. It's not always easy to sort out the percentage of work done between the artist and the writer.

BTW, in an interview on the BBC from 2007 Stan Lee said "If Steve (Ditko) wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves it." He also commented that Ditko's costume design was the key to Spider-Man's success in an interview with Roy Thomas in Alter Ego #108 (April 2012)

It is a long time since I saw that BBC documentary (I am assuming you are referring to “In search of Steve Ditko”.I actually watched when it came out, and have not watched it since.)

If you have seen it more recently would be interested in your view of that Stan Lee interview. My memory is that Stan did indeed say “ If Steve wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves it” (or words to that effect), but it had to be coaxed out of him, and certainly the thought floated through my head “So why did Ditko have to fight over the years to get that acknowledgment?”

I am obviously aware that several people contributing to this thread think I am “anti-Stan” so it might be worth saying a couple of things at this point. The first is that like the large majority of us I regard Stan as a titan of comics, some one who had a massive positive impact on comics. (The only reason I do not say that more often is that it is kind of obvious!)

The second point is that in the area where I do have misgivings about Stan (basically whether he was fair in the way he dealt with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko) I might well be forgetting just how different the comics scene was back in the 1960s from today.

[JackDaw]

Ed Piskor and Jim Rugg discuss the latest Stan Lee Documentary on their show Cartoonist Kayfabe. They are artists first all the way but that just might be how the Marvel method works. I will say this, I am reading the Kirby Lee FF and the way the book adds characters, The Black Panther, The Frightful Four, The Inhumans, The Kree, it reads like Kirby’s New Gods where the universe keeps getting bigger. It feels like Kirby’s storytelling. In the FF masterworks book, there is a short FF comic, 100% Kirby anccording to the credits, it reads like a Not Brand Ecch story, Kirby draws the fictional bullpen, and he draws Stan as a co storyteller. I think Stan shared ideas, maybe even character names, but I think a lot of the creative heavy lifting is the artist.

Thanks for suggesting the Ed Piskor/Jim Rugg discussion. Not come across them before, but really enjoyed their banter.

[Iron Maiden]

It is a long time since I saw that BBC documentary (I am assuming you are referring to “In search of Steve Ditko”.I actually watched when it came out, and have not watched it since.)

If you have seen it more recently would be interested in your view of that Stan Lee interview. My memory is that Stan did indeed say “ If Steve wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves it” (or words to that effect), but it had to be coaxed out of him, and certainly the thought floated through my head “So why did Ditko have to fight over the years to get that acknowledgment?”

I am obviously aware that several people contributing to this thread think I am “anti-Stan” so it might be worth saying a couple of things at this point. The first is that like the large majority of us I regard Stan as a titan of comics, some one who had a massive positive impact on comics. (The only reason I do not say that more often is that it is kind of obvious!)

The second point is that in the area where I do have misgivings about Stan (basically whether he was fair in the way he dealt with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko) I might well be forgetting just how different the comics scene was back in the 1960s from today.

Here's a section of the documentary where Stan Lee talks about Spider-Man's creation.

[JackDaw]

Here's a section of the documentary where Stan Lee talks about

Thanks for that. I’ve just had a very quick look at it. (Half an eye on Wales v England match at same time will look at it more carefully sometime…but immediate gut reaction: Stan is an incredibly difficult character to “read”.)

[Johnny Thunders!]

Thanks for suggesting the Ed Piskor/Jim Rugg discussion. Not come across them before, but really enjoyed their banter.

It’s a great show and they talk about great comics, they have a couple of long discussions with Brian Bolland all about Judge Dredd and it’s terrific.

[Gamma Irradiated Being]