a 14th question: Lois as endgame?

[Jon Clark]

I was reading through all the different answers to the 13 questions when it hit me. There is sort of an assumption in the 13th question that Lois is actually a main part of the picture. Having grown up reading Pre-Crisis/Silver Age I experienced Superman's potential love interests as less set in stone. The original Superman-Red/Superman Blue showed Superman (split in two) marrying both Lois and Lana. Another tale showed Superman marrying Lois, Lana and the mermain-Lori only for them all to meet tragic ends. And when JMS did his [I][Earth One Superman/I] he introduced a new love interest for Clark separate from Lois,

So while Lois is always going to be a part of Clark/Superman lore- is she automatically the endgame for your "perfect" Superman? If not is there some other character (Lana, Diana, some alien Superwoman, a Kryptonian, ...) you feel should be Superman's ultimate love interest? Could Lois be made Clark's co-worker and rival but not made a major player outside of the Planet (not the first save, not the one who names his superhero self ...)

[GreatKungLao]

I think some things should remain constant. Without consistency there's no real attachment you can develop because in time everything you cared about will be scratched in favor of another reboot. So if we can't have consistent universe, then essence of characters and relationships should remain constant for the said universe to stay familiar and become likeable again. If you change too much, then I will never care about your take on the character/universe/lore/story/etc.

[Jon Clark]

I think some things should remain constant. Without consistency there's no real attachment you can develop because in time everything you cared about will be scratched in favor of another reboot. So if we can't have consistent universe, then essence of characters and relationships should remain constant for the said universe to stay familiar and become likeable again. If you change too much, then I will never care about your take on the character/universe/lore/story/etc.

Yes, but the question is just what needs to remain constant? And whether it is one thing or set of things.

In the case of Lois if you had everything else you desired in a Superman present (the other 12 questions from the original thread) would you be upset if the story had Clark playing the field romantically? Or one where Superman eventually marries Lana or Cat Grant?

While i didn't really care for the Clark/Lana dynamic on Smallville, I never understood the creators of the show's insistence that Lois was always supposed to be endgame and that Clark/Lana from episode one was always designed to end. I think a show with a teenaged Clark should have the potential to set up Lana as "The One" and never consider Lois at all. Or evwn to introduce Lois as a potential rival for Lana without making her the obvious future Mrs. Superman.

[Kuwagaton]

The interesting part of that to me isn't whether it's Lois or someone else, because there isn't anyone else outside of intentional divergence. But what is the endgame? There's no way that Superman has a remotely human lifespan naturally. Not that it's impossible but... is he going to present as a 36 year old man with abilities thousands of times beyond any other, being joined at the hip day in and day out to a woman who presents as 80? You can say it's not about looks or being physical, but that's just hard. Does he give any of that up, does Lois give up some humanity to be with him, does he go through life seeing her as a pebble in a pond? That stuff is pretty interesting

[bat39]

I think, broadly speaking, the Silver Age/Bronze Age was the only time that Lana was seriously elevated to being on par with Lois as potentially being 'the One' (well, there's also the New 52 with Superman/Wonder Woman, but how long did that last?)

It is one of the fundamentals of the mythos. Lois being Superman's love interest is something that was teased in the earliest stories by Siegal/Shuster (though, to be fair to Jon Clark, there are a lot of early stories that pretty much just relegate her to being at the Planet). She's been in every major adaptation of the mythos. The trunks may not always be there, some powers may not always be there, and a lot of characters (especially those who weren't created by Siegal and Shuster in the early years) are pretty expendable...but Lois is always there.

When it comes to comic-book relationships, if there's a hierarchy of the importance of certain relationships, then Lois and Clark sits right at the top! Barry and Iris would be fairly close behind, followed by maybe Diana and Steve, or Oliver and Dinah, and then still lower than that, Bruce and Selina. That's how I see it. It's possible (but increasingly rare) to have a major Batman adaptation that doesn't position Selina as Bruce's romantic endgame. Arrow can get Oliver married to original character Felicity without anyone but a few hardcore fans batting an eye (for the record, I wanted Oliver to end up with Laurel on the show, but whatever happened happened!) When it comes to the Flash, you can explore the idea of Barry having other relationships but it would be extremely jarring for Iris not to be the 'the one'. But when it comes to Superman, it's nigh-impossible to not think of Lois as 'the one'.

[Jim Kelly]

It seems to be a recency bias where, because Lois and Clark are a couple now, then that is given greater weight than the long period of time when they weren't. Lois was a possible love interest before, but she was also an antagonist (nearly a villain) at times. And in imaginary stories where Lois might have married Superman and/or Clark, things did not always work out so well for her or Superman--with one or the other dying, or Lois just turning out to be very unhappy. This is quite different from Barry and Iris or Ralph and Sue or Adam and Alanna, where we are left in no doubt that the two belong together.

Moreover, I think this shift of Lois Lane, from being an unpredictable factor in the life of Clark Kent to an entirely predictable factor, robs her of possibility. She always has to fall in line and serve the purpose of the romantic interest, rather than stepping outside that predictable construct and becoming something else.

I don't mind stories about a possible future where Lois and Superman are married, but I don't like this being presented as a fait accompli almost as soon as the story begins. That's what I don't like about the marriage; it skips too many of the steps in between where most of the adventures used to happen.

[Lucas 35]

I have the impression that some people are underestimating Lois and her role in the Superman mythos! She is Endgame, she is much more important than many other elements, she is the second most important character in the Superman comics, they are the most important and famous couple in comics, one of the most famous couples in fiction, different from other heroes , there is no way to remove Lois from the story without disappearing such an important and fundamental element of the myths

[Yoda]

She was created along with Superman as part of the Romantic hero aspect. She is a fundamental part of the mythos. Her role as the endgame and love interest was cemented in 1978 with Superman The Movie. That really was the point of no return and is not really “recent” in any real sense as we are closing in on 50 years. Lois Lane and Superman are up there with Romeo and Juliet as pop culture couples now. They don’t have to be married or even together but the romantic tension is permanent to the point where attempts to have other love interests are destined to fail because they will constantly be in her shadow.

The Silver and Bronze Age are kind of the exceptions to the rule at this point and of all the elements that they do incorporate into modernizations, Lois’ role isn’t one of them

[Morgoth]

Lois is the endgame, at this point there are just no other options, nobody else simply won't be accepted, and their romance is simply too iconic. I mean, one of reasons why New 52 Superman was killed was to bring them back, lol.

[bat39]

It seems to be a recency bias where, because Lois and Clark are a couple now, then that is given greater weight than the long period of time when they weren't. Lois was a possible love interest before, but she was also an antagonist (nearly a villain) at times. And in imaginary stories where Lois might have married Superman and/or Clark, things did not always work out so well for her or Superman--with one or the other dying, or Lois just turning out to be very unhappy. This is quite different from Barry and Iris or Ralph and Sue or Adam and Alanna, where we are left in no doubt that the two belong together.

Moreover, I think this shift of Lois Lane, from being an unpredictable factor in the life of Clark Kent to an entirely predictable factor, robs her of possibility. She always has to fall in line and serve the purpose of the romantic interest, rather than stepping outside that predictable construct and becoming something else.

I don't mind stories about a possible future where Lois and Superman are married, but I don't like this being presented as a fait accompli almost as soon as the story begins. That's what I don't like about the marriage; it skips too many of the steps in between where most of the adventures used to happen.

How is it a 'fait accompli' almost as soon as the story begins?

It was almost half-a-century into the existence of the characters before they were married in 'mainline' continuity. Hell, it was about a decade into the Post-Crisis continuity before they were married. So it's not like it was a 'rushed' relationship by any means. If we're talking adaptations, then frankly the only one where I feel their relationship was possibly rushed was the DCEU - specifically BvS/JL. But given how differently their relationship unfolded in that continuity (Lois knowing the truth right from the start and there being no "triangle for two") it kinda makes sense in context.

Anyway, what was the 'other' thing Lois became when she was not married to Superman? I'm talking about Pre-Crisis and the New 52. And whatver it is she could become in addition to Superman's love interest/wife, why can't she still be that?

She was created along with Superman as part of the Romantic hero aspect. She is a fundamental part of the mythos. Her role as the endgame and love interest was cemented in 1978 with Superman The Movie. That really was the point of no return and is not really “recent” in any real sense as we are closing in on 50 years. Lois Lane and Superman are up there with Romeo and Juliet as pop culture couples now. They don’t have to be married or even together but the romantic tension is permanent to the point where attempts to have other love interests are destined to fail because they will constantly be in her shadow.

The Silver and Bronze Age are kind of the exceptions to the rule at this point and of all the elements that they do incorporate into modernizations, Lois’ role isn’t one of them

Lois is the endgame, at this point there are just no other options, nobody else simply won't be accepted, and their romance is simply too iconic. I mean, one of reasons why New 52 Superman was killed was to bring them back, lol.

I have the impression that some people are underestimating Lois and her role in the Superman mythos! She is Endgame, she is much more important than many other elements, she is the second most important character in the Superman comics, they are the most important and famous couple in comics, one of the most famous couples in fiction, different from other heroes , there is no way to remove Lois from the story without disappearing such an important and fundamental element of the myths

All this.

[DochaDocha]

While i didn't really care for the Clark/Lana dynamic on Smallville, I never understood the creators of the show's insistence that Lois was always supposed to be endgame and that Clark/Lana from episode one was always designed to end. I think a show with a teenaged Clark should have the potential to set up Lana as "The One" and never consider Lois at all. Or evwn to introduce Lois as a potential rival for Lana without making her the obvious future Mrs. Superman.

They brought Lois in to boost ratings, and I think as the show progressed they sort of wrote in "The One" concept to make their relationship seem comparatively more interesting once Lana was being phased out.

I consider Lois the endgame, but there are probably right and wrong ways to portray what the endgame is. I think the one idea of Grant Morrison that sticks out to me that I really didn't like was how Superman Prime from DC One Million went on to live for many millennia and resurrected Lois to be his companion again. That's not romantic IMO hahaha. I also think of shows like STAS that probably hit various wrong notes. They treat Lois as "The One" but didn't really do much of interest in that regard, and in fact, made Lois' most interesting romantic partner to be Bruce Wayne*. But then when they introduced Lana and Maxima, Superman had no real interest in them because Lois was "The One" and they weren't going to detract from that concept.

*Funny to think that Zack Snyder was about to do this, too. And Amy Adams probably would've had more on-screen chemistry with Ben Affleck.

[CosmeticSkull]

Yes, Lois is and always should be his endgame. They're a classic couple on par with Romeo and Juliet. Anything else just feels wrong. They literally had to kill New 52 Superman because he wasn't with Lois.

Besides, Lana is with John Henry Irons now.

[CosmeticSkull]

The interesting part of that to me isn't whether it's Lois or someone else, because there isn't anyone else outside of intentional divergence. But what is the endgame? There's no way that Superman has a remotely human lifespan naturally. Not that it's impossible but... is he going to present as a 36 year old man with abilities thousands of times beyond any other, being joined at the hip day in and day out to a woman who presents as 80? You can say it's not about looks or being physical, but that's just hard. Does he give any of that up, does Lois give up some humanity to be with him, does he go through life seeing her as a pebble in a pond? That stuff is pretty interesting

There's still the possibility of a DC One Million type of ending.

[bat39]

They brought Lois in to boost ratings, and I think as the show progressed they sort of wrote in "The One" concept to make their relationship seem comparatively more interesting once Lana was being phased out.

I consider Lois the endgame, but there are probably right and wrong ways to portray what the endgame is. I think the one idea of Grant Morrison that sticks out to me that I really didn't like was how Superman Prime from DC One Million went on to live for many millennia and resurrected Lois to be his companion again. That's not romantic IMO hahaha. I also think of shows like STAS that probably hit various wrong notes. They treat Lois as "The One" but didn't really do much of interest in that regard, and in fact, made Lois' most interesting romantic partner to be Bruce Wayne*. But then when they introduced Lana and Maxima, Superman had no real interest in them because Lois was "The One" and they weren't going to detract from that concept.

*Funny to think that Zack Snyder was about to do this, too. And Amy Adams probably would've had more on-screen chemistry with Ben Affleck.

Actually, STAS, and the DCAU in general, is one of the few adaptations that doesn't treat Lois as 'the One', even as it treats her as the most important supporting character. At any rate, being a more action-oriented cartoon, it doesn't prioritize the romantic aspect...at least based on what I remember.

Come to think of it, was the older Superman in the Batman Beyond future established as having been married to Lois at some point?

[DochaDocha]

Actually, STAS, and the DCAU in general, is one of the few adaptations that doesn't treat Lois as 'the One', even as it treats her as the most important supporting character. At any rate, being a more action-oriented cartoon, it doesn't prioritize the romantic aspect...at least based on what I remember.

Come to think of it, was the older Superman in the Batman Beyond future established as having been married to Lois at some point?

I don't think they referenced his marriage to Lois at all. At the end of the first Lana episode, they give a cute wink to the inevitability of Lois. There's also the "Brave New Metropolis" episode, one of the early instances of if-Lois-Dies-Superman-becomes-evil that I can recall. To the show's credit, they let Lois be herself independent of Clark, but Clark's lovelife in that show just seemed to be written to be as bland as possible, especially in the presence of the Batman crossover and BTAS in general.