a 14th question: Lois as endgame?

[Vordan]

Lois and MJ are pretty much cemented as the love interests for Supes and Spidey. To offer a feasible alternative to Lois at this point, there would need to be something like an Ultimate DC line that put a lot of effort into building up a competing love interest. Lana can’t compete because her appeal is the same as Lois just watered down (she’s an ordinary woman who knows Clark’s secret and loves him for it), Lori is a meme who only exists for reminders about how wacky the Silver Age. Arguably the most consistent alternative to Lois is Wonder Woman, but I don’t like that relationship. Maxima I think could be good but it would have to be a “Talia/Black Cat” romance where it could never feasibly work out in the long run (I’m more interested in the idea of a Clark/Maxima kid at this point than I am in another Clois offspring given how terrible Jon turned out). Livewire would be fun as an early romance but again, never would work out in the long run.

Part of the reason Lois stuck around is all the other competitors were either “Lois Lite”, too weird to feasibly endure, or just flat out not popular. Talia and Selina endure because both challenge Bruce’s morals to different extents, and Talia also had Bruce’s kid which means she’s never going to disappear for good.

Actually, STAS, and the DCAU in general, is one of the few adaptations that doesn't treat Lois as 'the One', even as it treats her as the most important supporting character. At any rate, being a more action-oriented cartoon, it doesn't prioritize the romantic aspect...at least based on what I remember.

Come to think of it, was the older Superman in the Batman Beyond future established as having been married to Lois at some point?

The Superman Beyond comics did establish that they were married I think, but the two never were married on screen (in fact I don’t think Lois ever knew that Clark was Superman on screen).

The interesting part of that to me isn't whether it's Lois or someone else, because there isn't anyone else outside of intentional divergence. But what is the endgame? There's no way that Superman has a remotely human lifespan naturally. Not that it's impossible but... is he going to present as a 36 year old man with abilities thousands of times beyond any other, being joined at the hip day in and day out to a woman who presents as 80? You can say it's not about looks or being physical, but that's just hard. Does he give any of that up, does Lois give up some humanity to be with him, does he go through life seeing her as a pebble in a pond? That stuff is pretty interesting

Yeah they’re never going to have Clark cheat on Lois lol. And there’s plenty of ways to keep Lois looking young even while she ages and he doesn’t. I do like the idea PKJ had for Future State that after Lois dies, Clark hands the job of protecting Earth to Jon and goes traveling across the cosmos, where he does have other love interests. Can’t imagine that’s a problem for Lois considering neither she nor Clark are virgins when they finally get together

[Korath]

In-continuity books or adjacent ? Yes, Lois is the endgame by now that's obvious.

However, in reboots/elseworlds assuming what they are, no she doesn't have to be because it'd simply stiffle the story. And she can be used to be something else than Superman's lover.

[bat39]

Lois and MJ are pretty much cemented as the love interests for Supes and Spidey. To offer a feasible alternative to Lois at this point, there would need to be something like an Ultimate DC line that put a lot of effort into building up a competing love interest. Lana can’t compete because her appeal is the same as Lois just watered down (she’s an ordinary woman who knows Clark’s secret and loves him for it), Lori is a meme who only exists for reminders about how wacky the Silver Age. Arguably the most consistent alternative to Lois is Wonder Woman, but I don’t like that relationship. Maxima I think could be good but it would have to be a “Talia/Black Cat” romance where it could never feasibly work out in the long run (I’m more interested in the idea of a Clark/Maxima kid at this point than I am in another Clois offspring given how terrible Jon turned out). Livewire would be fun as an early romance but again, never would work out in the long run.

Part of the reason Lois stuck around is all the other competitors were either “Lois Lite”, too weird to feasibly endure, or just flat out not popular. Talia and Selina endure because both challenge Bruce’s morals to different extents, and Talia also had Bruce’s kid which means she’s never going to disappear for good.

The Superman Beyond comics did establish that they were married I think, but the two never were married on screen (in fact I don’t think Lois ever knew that Clark was Superman on screen).

Yeah they’re never going to have Clark cheat on Lois lol. And there’s plenty of ways to keep Lois looking young even while she ages and he doesn’t. I do like the idea PKJ had for Future State that after Lois dies, Clark hands the job of protecting Earth to Jon and goes traveling across the cosmos, where he does have other love interests. Can’t imagine that’s a problem for Lois considering neither she nor Clark are virgins when they finally get together

I don't Lois and MJ are comparable though. MJ wasn't there right from the beginning (even if she was also created by Spider-Man's creator) and she wasn't exactly intended to be the 'romantic endgame' for Peter. There was a pretty good chance he'd have ended up with Gwen, and frankly the only reason he didn't was because Gwen was killed off. But yeah, over time, MJ has become the Spider-Man love interest. But the people against the Peter-MJ relationship (which at various points has included TPTB at Marvel ) aren't completely wrong, theoreticaly at least, to explore the serious possibility of Peter having other romantic interests who could end up replacing MJ as 'the One'.

As far as feasible alternatives to Lois go, I think Lana actually does work. Not Pre-Crisis Lana who, as you've suggested, was pretty much a Lois Lane clone. But Post-Crisis Lana, who was in on the secret...was in fact the first person Clark revealed his powers too. I think a compelling narrative could be built around Clark leaving behind the woman he's loved all his life to explore the wider world and become Superman, only to one day return and marry his high-school sweetheart. Not advocating for it in 'mainline' continuity for sure, but it's worth a thought.

Come to think of it, maybe the New 52 Superman should have been paired with Lana instead of Wonder Woman. Hell, now I'm kinda sold on the idea...if the New 52 Superman ever returns in any way or form, I want him to be with Lana!

[Korath]

If New 52 Superman ever returns, I want him paired with Wonder Woman because both of them show us a better way for peoples of all origins to fit in without having to giving up entirely on their original culture and that's a very good thing we need right now I think.

[Vordan]

I don't Lois and MJ are comparable though. MJ wasn't there right from the beginning (even if she was also created by Spider-Man's creator) and she wasn't exactly intended to be the 'romantic endgame' for Peter. There was a pretty good chance he'd have ended up with Gwen, and frankly the only reason he didn't was because Gwen was killed off. But yeah, over time, MJ has become the Spider-Man love interest. But the people against the Peter-MJ relationship (which at various points has included TPTB at Marvel ) aren't completely wrong, theoreticaly at least, to explore the serious possibility of Peter having other romantic interests who could end up replacing MJ as 'the One'.

As far as feasible alternatives to Lois go, I think Lana actually does work. Not Pre-Crisis Lana who, as you've suggested, was pretty much a Lois Lane clone. But Post-Crisis Lana, who was in on the secret...was in fact the first person Clark revealed his powers too. I think a compelling narrative could be built around Clark leaving behind the woman he's loved all his life to explore the wider world and become Superman, only to one day return and marry his high-school sweetheart. Not advocating for it in 'mainline' continuity for sure, but it's worth a thought.

Come to think of it, maybe the New 52 Superman should have been paired with Lana instead of Wonder Woman. Hell, now I'm kinda sold on the idea...if the New 52 Superman ever returns in any way or form, I want him to be with Lana!

Sure it sounds sweet but what does it actually offer storytelling wise? How does Lana differ from Lois in terms of personality or interactions? With Maxima or Livewire, their difference in morality from Lois is the appeal to me, Clark potentially trying to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t share his moral scruples could make for fun/interesting stories just like Peter and Bruce get. Lana is usually just as morally upright and supportive of Clark as Lois, so it ends up just being an a hair color palette swap. Only big attraction I could see is if Lana is anti-Superman. Having her as the one who thinks Clark is wasting his time and should give it up would make for an interesting dynamic while they were dating and if they were married, and would be very different from Lois.

[Stanlos]

Lois is important. Lois + Clark, 2 people, 2 gether, 4ever

Even if his attractions were with dudes, it would be Louis & Clark.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah they’re never going to have Clark cheat on Lois lol. And there’s plenty of ways to keep Lois looking young even while she ages and he doesn’t. I do like the idea PKJ had for Future State that after Lois dies, Clark hands the job of protecting Earth to Jon and goes traveling across the cosmos, where he does have other love interests. Can’t imagine that’s a problem for Lois considering neither she nor Clark are virgins when they finally get together

You can call some ideas cheating, but it doesn't have to a decision or action that fits that definition at all. Ultimately it's like, what if you were 29 and fell in love with someone who wouldn't live to even see you hit 30? Even if Clark gets a little old, you sort of expect him to live like Tom Strong if not much longer.

I don't Lois and MJ are comparable though. MJ wasn't there right from the beginning (even if she was also created by Spider-Man's creator) and she wasn't exactly intended to be the 'romantic endgame' for Peter. There was a pretty good chance he'd have ended up with Gwen, and frankly the only reason he didn't was because Gwen was killed off. But yeah, over time, MJ has become the Spider-Man love interest. But the people against the Peter-MJ relationship (which at various points has included TPTB at Marvel ) aren't completely wrong, theoreticaly at least, to explore the serious possibility of Peter having other romantic interests who could end up replacing MJ as 'the One'.

By the time Amazing Spider-Man #42 came out, Superman's Girl Friend, Lois Lane had 70 issues. It's crazy to consider her as underrated but seriously, Lois is the name of the lane.

[Yoda]

I don't Lois and MJ are comparable though. MJ wasn't there right from the beginning (even if she was also created by Spider-Man's creator) and she wasn't exactly intended to be the 'romantic endgame' for Peter. There was a pretty good chance he'd have ended up with Gwen, and frankly the only reason he didn't was because Gwen was killed off. But yeah, over time, MJ has become the Spider-Man love interest. But the people against the Peter-MJ relationship (which at various points has included TPTB at Marvel ) aren't completely wrong, theoreticaly at least, to explore the serious possibility of Peter having other romantic interests who could end up replacing MJ as 'the One'.

As far as feasible alternatives to Lois go, I think Lana actually does work. Not Pre-Crisis Lana who, as you've suggested, was pretty much a Lois Lane clone. But Post-Crisis Lana, who was in on the secret...was in fact the first person Clark revealed his powers too. I think a compelling narrative could be built around Clark leaving behind the woman he's loved all his life to explore the wider world and become Superman, only to one day return and marry his high-school sweetheart. Not advocating for it in 'mainline' continuity for sure, but it's worth a thought.

Come to think of it, maybe the New 52 Superman should have been paired with Lana instead of Wonder Woman. Hell, now I'm kinda sold on the idea...if the New 52 Superman ever returns in any way or form, I want him to be with Lana!

I think MJ is comparable in the sense that the movies have cemented her in a way similar to how Lois has been cemented. You have the Rami movies, the MCU movies, and Spider-Verse placing her in that "endgame" role as the central love interest. Gwen is now the one that dies even if that wasn't intended. Lois has had Superman I & II, Lois & Clark, Smallville, Superman Returns, Man of Steel, Superman & Lois, and now MAWS all placing her in the central love interest role. Legacy will probably continue that trend, given they wouldn't have casted them together if they weren't thinking about their chemistry on screen. That's 50 years of mass media representation that builds off of the first decades of the character. Even the Silver and Bronze ages where she arguably wasn't the central love interest all the time, she was still "Superman's Girlfriend, Lois Lane." I'm kinda stumped thinking of any on screen couple that has had that much over that long of a span. There really isn't a comparison to that except MJ.

[DochaDocha]

I don't Lois and MJ are comparable though. MJ wasn't there right from the beginning (even if she was also created by Spider-Man's creator) and she wasn't exactly intended to be the 'romantic endgame' for Peter. There was a pretty good chance he'd have ended up with Gwen, and frankly the only reason he didn't was because Gwen was killed off. But yeah, over time, MJ has become the Spider-Man love interest. But the people against the Peter-MJ relationship (which at various points has included TPTB at Marvel ) aren't completely wrong, theoreticaly at least, to explore the serious possibility of Peter having other romantic interests who could end up replacing MJ as 'the One'.

As far as feasible alternatives to Lois go, I think Lana actually does work. Not Pre-Crisis Lana who, as you've suggested, was pretty much a Lois Lane clone. But Post-Crisis Lana, who was in on the secret...was in fact the first person Clark revealed his powers too. I think a compelling narrative could be built around Clark leaving behind the woman he's loved all his life to explore the wider world and become Superman, only to one day return and marry his high-school sweetheart. Not advocating for it in 'mainline' continuity for sure, but it's worth a thought.

Come to think of it, maybe the New 52 Superman should have been paired with Lana instead of Wonder Woman. Hell, now I'm kinda sold on the idea...if the New 52 Superman ever returns in any way or form, I want him to be with Lana!

If New 52 Superman ever returns, I want him paired with Wonder Woman because both of them show us a better way for peoples of all origins to fit in without having to giving up entirely on their original culture and that's a very good thing we need right now I think.

To the modern young person, Pete/MJ probably has more cultural relevancy than Supes/Lois. Even if Lois had a big head start on MJ, MJ (or more generally, the Spidey franchise) caught up. They even got married nearly a decade earlier. So even if MJ wasn't intended to be the endgame, for most intents and purposes she is now.

If you brought back New 52 Superman, it'd almost be like a big middle finger to a big chunk of New 52 fans if you didn't bring back his relationship with WW, but I'm sure there are some creators who'd be happy to flip that bird.

[godisawesome]

Lois’s biggest single advantage is that she’s considered a “must have” character for any serious adaptation of Superman, even ones that aren’t very interested in romance, and has thus built up a stone her storytelling function and fanbase than any of her rivals…. And as a result, has also left a much deeper impact in both comics and in multi-media versions that her rivals can’t hope to match.

Like… her biggest rivals as just a supporting character are the often-neglected Jimmy Olsen, who’s a distant second behind her, and Lex Luthor when he’s given a supporting role, and he’s still defined by being an antagonist. Lana’s not even really competition; Lana’s been in multiple live action shows, movies, and cartoons… and we all know that she’s still seen as strictly an optional character, while Lois simply isn’t. Even the Superboy show that did Lana and not Lois has sunk into obscurity compared to Lois and Clark and Smallville.

And even happenstance has sort of leaned into beefing up Lois’s place as a romantic interest and supporting character; Erica Durrance’s Lois wound up becoming the “superior” female lead to Kristen Kruek’s Lana Lang even though Smallville’s producers clearly loved Kruek’s Lang more than expected.

It also hasn’t helped that a lot fo writers seem to immediately become more lazy and shallow whenever they try a different love interest - DC wanted to market the crap out of their Superman and Wonder Woman gimmick, and let’s face it, it remains a “ship” where the fans have done more head-canon storytelling than the writers at their best.

I mean, at this point, if you just want supporting characters for an-action focused, non-romantic Superman story, Lois is still going to be needed to do the investigating that Superman needs to find the problem. And if you *do* want a romance, than Lois has the precedent, recognition, previous stories for inspiration, and most interesting chemistry with him.

[bat39]

Sure it sounds sweet but what does it actually offer storytelling wise? How does Lana differ from Lois in terms of personality or interactions? With Maxima or Livewire, their difference in morality from Lois is the appeal to me, Clark potentially trying to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t share his moral scruples could make for fun/interesting stories just like Peter and Bruce get. Lana is usually just as morally upright and supportive of Clark as Lois, so it ends up just being an a hair color palette swap. Only big attraction I could see is if Lana is anti-Superman. Having her as the one who thinks Clark is wasting his time and should give it up would make for an interesting dynamic while they were dating and if they were married, and would be very different from Lois.

It doesn't offer a lot that's new. I'm just saying it is a feasible alternative to Lois. Not saying it's a feasible alternative that I definitely want.

Though Lana has a very different (and much longer) history with Lois...again, going by the Post-Crisis versions who knew his secret. We talk a lot about who is the 'real' Clark on these forums. I think an argument could be made that Lana got to know the 'real' Clark in a way that it took a while for Lois to get to know.

[Vordan]

To the modern young person, Pete/MJ probably has more cultural relevancy than Supes/Lois. Even if Lois had a big head start on MJ, MJ (or more generally, the Spidey franchise) caught up. They even got married nearly a decade earlier. So even if MJ wasn't intended to be the endgame, for most intents and purposes she is now.

MJ was the default LI for Spider-Man in:
-Raimi movies
-MCU with Zendaya retconned to be playing “MJ”
-Most Spider-Man video games including the recent Insomniac ones
-Most cartoons including Spider-Man: TAS, Spider-Verse, Ultimate Spider-Man, and was planned as endgame for Spectacular Spider-Man

Outside of the Garfield movies (and even there the plan was to introduce MJ after Gwen died), the overwhelming majority of Spidey content features Peter/MJ. Clark and Peter will sometimes have brief romantic relationships with other women (Diana usually for Clark, Black Cat usually for Peter), but Lois and MJ usually endure as the endgame LI.

If you brought back New 52 Superman, it'd almost be like a big middle finger to a big chunk of New 52 fans if you didn't bring back his relationship with WW, but I'm sure there are some creators who'd be happy to flip that bird.

Yeah it was not something I loved myself but that romance was part of the appeal for fans of that era, so if you were to ever do a story set on “Earth 52” or whatever, it makes sense to have it.

[Stanlos]

I would say bringing back a Superman WW romance it would be a big middle finger to a chunk of WW fans, as were most of editorials choices for the character during that era.

[Frontier]

To the modern young person, Pete/MJ probably has more cultural relevancy than Supes/Lois. Even if Lois had a big head start on MJ, MJ (or more generally, the Spidey franchise) caught up. They even got married nearly a decade earlier. So even if MJ wasn't intended to be the endgame, for most intents and purposes she is now.

If you brought back New 52 Superman, it'd almost be like a big middle finger to a big chunk of New 52 fans if you didn't bring back his relationship with WW, but I'm sure there are some creators who'd be happy to flip that bird.

Although I feel like, looking back at the New 52, they really had no idea what to do with Lois when she wasn't the main love interest or most relevant female character in the Superman comics.

The New 52 was not a good era for Lois.

[bat39]

Although I feel like, looking back at the New 52, they really had no idea what to do with Lois when she wasn't the main love interest or most relevant female character in the Superman comics.

The New 52 was not a good era for Lois.

Wasn't Lois briefly a producer at Galaxy Broadcasting Systems or something during the New 52?

But yeah, functionally, Lois is the love interest, or deuteragonist of the Superman mythos. If not either, she's just...there.