13 Quick Thoughts on How to Build the Perfect Batman

[bat39]

I've been spending a lot of time on https://13thdimension.com/ lately. A while back I'd come across an article there titled 13 Question - Tell Us How YOU Would Build the Perfect Superman and created a thread based on it which you can check out there - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...rfect-Superman

This got me curious about whether there was something similar for Batman on the site. Well, there was, but not quiet the same sort of thing. Instead of questions, it was a continuity guide where the author created his own Batman headcanon based on select stories/elements. I'd highly recommend checking out the article.

https://13thdimension.com/its-the-ul...tinuity-guide/

In that spirit I thought I'd thought I'd take a stab at the exercise myself. I've broadly tried to follow the same framework which the author of the article did (Batman origin, Robin origin, Joker debut etc.), though I might tweak a few things here and there.

Well, here goes 13 Quick Thoughts on How to Build the Perfect Batman

1. Batman: Year One is THE Batman origin story, no ifs or buts. That said, there are some elements of Zero Year I wouldn't mind folding into Batman's early career - specifically the Red Hood Gang, and the possibility that Red Hood One might be the man who becomes the Joker. I'd also expand a little on Bruce's early pre-Batman forays into vigilantism, much like Zero Year and the flashbacks in Mask of the Phantasm. I'd also like to imagine that some of the early Kane/Finger Golden Age Batman stories broadly fit into Batman's early career as well.

2. I don't have a specific preference when it comes to the Robin origin story. I'm pretty okay with Detective Comics # 38 serving as the blueprint, with some aspects of the flashbacks in the Robin's Reckoning two-parter from BTAS thrown in. The fundamentals have frankly always been the same, but there are aspects from later retellings I'd love to see incorporated - specifically the idea that Dick initially started hunting for Zucco on his own before he got into trouble and Batman needed to rescue him. It doesn't make sense to me that Bruce agrees to train this kid to be his partner without said kid already demonstrating his initiative and a certain degree of skill. The only way Batman making Dick into Robin is morally tenable IMO is if Dick was already heading down a dangerous path. I also think The Gauntlet is an excellent 'Robin Day One' story. And I'd like to see elements of the recent Robin and Batman miniseries thrown in as well.

3. For Joker's debut, I'd go with The Man Who Laughs, with all due respect to Batman # 1, mainly because I prefer the idea of Batman's first encounter with Joker being during his solo pre-Robin phase. And definitely the "poisoning the dam" aspect is appealing to me (which was first referenced during the iconic end of Year One).

4. For the Joker's backstory...well, it's "multiple choice" after all! I've already mentioned Zero Year as one possible backstory for him, if he was Red Hood One. The flashbacks from The Killing Joke are another possibility. I also kinda like the Mask of the Phantasm idea that he could have been a Mob hitman.

5. Other essential stories for me - The Long Halloween (and by extension, Dark Victory). Prey from LOTDK. A lot of Bronze Age Batman material, including the Englehart/Rogers Strange Apparitions run and the classic Adams/O'Neil Tales of the Demon. BTAS is a great representation of this era as a whole. Hush and Under the Red Hood, and that general era surrounding them. The Morrison run. Scott Snyder's Black Mirror, and his New 52 run, particularly Court of Owls.

6. The original Dynamic Duo of Batman and Dick Grayson's Robin is too iconic to be represented by any specific set of stories. I broadly consider all Golden Age and Silver Age stories with them to be part of my canon. I have a special fondness for the 'New Look' era. And I think the Adam West Batman show (and the animated films and Batman '66 comics based on it) are a pretty solid representation too.

7. When it comes to villain portrayals - I'm pretty sold on the modern idea of Selina as Catwoman being Bruce's true love and almost certainly his romantic 'endgame'. I love the Tom King notion of reconciling her multiple portrayals and backstories ("It was the street". "It was the boat".) She started as a cat-burglar, became a more anti-heroic vigilante, flip-flopped between both sides of the law, and today is kind of a hero, but not quiet. In terms of the other villains, I think they, like Batman, evolve (or flip-flop) over time, with the Adam West show and BTAS both being accurate representations of them at different points in their villanous careers. Mr. Freeze should have the BTAS backstory, no question (I appreciate Snyder's twist on it, but it isn't the 'classic' version for me). I prefer the Matt Hagen as an actor take on Clayface from BTAS (though I suppose Basil Karlo works as well there). With Riddler, I love the Zero Year take on him, but I equally prefer the more subdued and intellectual version. As much as I love Reeves' The Batman, that take on Riddler isn't how I fundamentally see the character. I think Penguin works better as the Mob boss with some aristocratic airs, ensconed in the Icerberg lounge, and using the occasional trick umbrella, than as some kind of mutated monster serial-killer/super-villain.

8. All the Robins are part of history, but that doesn't mean they all need to be part of the present. I'd like Tim Drake to retire the Robin/Red Robin mantle, either to civilian life or helping superheroes without a mask. Jason is around as Red Hood but he's still somewhat the 'black sheep' of the family. Damian is Robin. Dick is Nightwing. Barbara is currently Batgirl, but was out of action for a while and was Oracle during that time. Other Bat-family members from the past are still out there and may occasionally pop up, but these three are the 'core'. Helena Bertnelli's Huntress is an honorary member of the family who occasionally helps out, mainly due to her connection to Barbara through the Birds of Prey. Kate Kane's Batwoman isn't part of the family either, but their paths occasionally cross.

9. The Killing Joke is very much part of my canon. What happened to Barbara cannot, and should not, be ignored. The story of her resilience and recovery is legendary. In general, when it comes to Barbara, I lean towards the original Silver Age origin - The Million Dollar Debut of Batgirl - and would have her show up years after Bruce and Dick are established as the Dynamic Duo, shortly before Dick goes to college. She's Jim Gordon's daughter from his first marriage, and she and James Jr. are half-siblings (as crazy as it may sound, Jim's second wife Barbara has the same name as his daughter...probably because Jim dated Barbara in college before marrying his second wife, and then named his daughter after her, as f#cked up as that sounds!) Barbara lived with her mom in Chicago and moved to Gotham much later, some time after Batman first showed up.

10. Age-wise, Barbara's maybe a couple of years older than Dick, and is romantically involved with him. There's not even a hint of anything between her and Bruce!

11. Knightfall and No Man's Land happened, albeit probably over the span of months rather than a year each. The major events of Zero Year also happened at some point, but not in the first year of Batman's career. In the 20-plus years of Batman's career, its very much possible for Gotham to have experienced, and survived, multiple disasters.

12. Alfred raised Bruce and is his father-figure and closest confidant. There's no getting away from that now. He's also former MI6. Joe Chill was the killer of Bruce's parents, and Bruce's encounter with Chill plays out as it did in Batman # 47. However, the ambiguity forever remains about whether Chill was just a mugger, or part of some larger conspiracy involving Lew Moxon, or the Court of Owls or Carmine Falcone. In a sense, Chill becomes an embodiment of all the conspiracies and darkness of Gotham City collectively, which Bruce combats as Batman.

13. As far as an 'ending' for Batman and his story goes (as if there could ever be such a thing!), my preference is for something resembling the classic Earth 2. Bruce marries Selina, and they have a daughter, Helena Wayne who eventually becomes Huntress. Bruce or Selina may or may not die, but if they do, they go down fighting in costume.

[JBatmanFan05]

Bat39, borrowed portions of your answers (since we agree on a lot!....we agree a good bit less on Superman interestingly enough)

13 Quick Thoughts on How to Build the Perfect Batman:

1. Batman: Year One is THE Batman origin story, no ifs or buts. Along with O'Neil's The Man Who Falls (and perhaps stuff from Untold Legend). Like no elements of Zero Year for me. I'd also expand a little on Bruce's early pre-Batman forays into vigilantism, much like in Mask of the Phantasm. Andrea Beaumont was Bruce's biggest pre-Batman love (just as in MOTP) and Joker did not kill her dad Carl (but the mob/Valestra did) and hence she did become Phantasm (she would later try to kill Joker simply because he was a scourge...a prominent serial mass murderer who had worked with the mob at times as we see in Long Halloween). I definitely imagine that a great many or even perhaps all of the early Kane/Finger Golden Age Batman stories broadly fit into Batman's early career as well (even if they happened a bit differently in some instances).

2. Detective Comics #38 is still perhaps the best version of Robin’s origin. Zucco dies in it or shortly after via the chair (hence, a lot of Batman Year Three is not canon for me). Also, The Gauntlet and Robin Year One in addition. Batman #213 nicely retells Robin’s origin in Tec #38, I consider that. Untold Legend (1980) and Secret Origin #13 (1987) retells Tec #28 sufficiently and faithfully that parts of that are the only things I consider in addition to Tec #38, and Secret Origins #13 is a little better than Untold’s version. For “modern Zucco” I do count some of Dark Victory (but not a lot).

3. For Joker's debut, it's Brubaker's The Man Who Laughs, with all due respect to Batman #1, mainly because I prefer the idea of Batman's first encounter with Joker being during his solo pre-Robin phase. And definitely the "poisoning the dam" aspect is appealing to me (which was first referenced during the iconic end of Year One).

4. For the Joker's backstory...well, it's "multiple choice” per Killing Joke. We know N O T H I N G else about Joker’s origin other than he somehow wore that Red Hood. Why?...we don’t know at all. Innocent well-meaning failed comedian perhaps, career criminal perhaps (who robbed payrolls), serial killer, who knows.

5. Other essential stories for me - The Long Halloween (and not much: Dark Victory). Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk. Prey, Gothic, Venom, Shaman, so a lot of LOTDK arcs really. Like all Bronze Age Batman material, including the Englehart/Rogers Strange Apparitions run and the classic Adams/O'Neil Tales of the Demon (Ra's debuted in the middle of Bat's career, no earlier!). Hush. The Morrison run. Scott Snyder's Black Mirror, and the rest of Snyder’s Batman run in various titles. Batman Year Two by Barr joins Snyder's Zero Year as pretty firmly not canon for me.

6. The original Dynamic Duo of Batman and Dick Grayson's Robin is too iconic to be represented by any specific set of stories. I broadly consider all Golden Age and Silver Age and Bronze Age stories with them to be part of my canon. Also, Robin Year One is a good glimpse into that time.

7. Villain portrayals - I'm also pretty sold on the modern idea of Selina as Catwoman by Tom King. I love the Tom King notion of reconciling her multiple portrayals and backstories ("It was the street". "It was the boat".) She started as a cat-burglar, became a more anti-heroic vigilante, flip-flopped between both sides of the law, and today is kind of a hero, but not quite. If Selina is Bruce's love interest endgame, then it (probably) doesn't last forever per Dark Knight Returns.
In terms of the other villains, I think they, like Batman, evolve (or flip-flop) over time at different points in their villanous careers. Mr. Freeze should have the BTAS backstory, no question (it's clear enough to every reader that Nora is firmly dead/unrevivable, but Victor cannot accept that, Victor does crimes out of various motivations, not just to save Nora, but also anger and depression and other selfish or petty or fraternal motivations). I prefer the Basil Karlo and a BTAS-ish Matt Hagen and Payne are the main Clayfaces. Zero Year is not in my Riddler canon, or even canon at all really…pre and post-COIE/pre-FP Riddler was always fine enough. Long Halloween is Two-Face’s origin basically for me…Harvey has periods where he sticks rigidly to the coin, but other periods (per Dixon) where he ignores or twists/cheats the coin’s decisions toward his own desires. Penguin was and is both a THIEF (kinda like Catwoman) and at times a MOB BOSS, I have Penguin's origin as l lot like Burton's actually, he's former Gotham aristocracy, old money that disappeared largely, decayed failed aristocracy. Pre and post-COIE/pre-FP comics is Scarecrow's history.

8. All the Robins are part of history. Dick is Nightwing. Barbara is currently Batgirl, but was out of action for a while and was Oracle during that time. Other Bat-family members from the past are still out there and may occasionally pop up, but these three are the 'core'. Helena Bertnelli's (Rucka) Huntress is an honorary member of the family who occasionally helps out.

A sidenote on Jason Todd: Like all of Jason's pre-COIE stories (including Nocturna, Killer Croc's first app arc, etc) happened (differently some perhaps) to his criminal orphan Post-COIE-origin self. I've very seriously toyed with the idea that maybe the 'Punisher' Jason we have/had is not technically the actual dead Jason, but basically also very much that Jason, just a reality-altered copy version (perversion) of him. If Jason murdered anyone for a time when he "returned," it was because of the multiverse and/or (in a Pet Sematary-ish sorta way) Laz Pits repairing a badly damaged brain. Batman does not at all operate or ally with or much tolerate any murderers (unless there are super extreme extenuating circumstances like the multiverse/Pits repairing severe brain damage).

9. The Killing Joke is very much part of my canon. What happened to Barbara cannot, and should not, be ignored. The story of her resilience and recovery is legendary. She's Jim Gordon's daughter from his first marriage, and she and James Jr. are half-siblings (as crazy as it may sound, Jim's second wife Barbara has the same name as his daughter).

10. Age-wise, Barbara's maybe a couple of years older than Dick, and is romantically involved with him. There's not even a hint of anything between her and Bruce!

11. Knightfall and No Man's Land happened, albeit probably over the span of months rather than a year each. And all the other major events happened in similar fashion (except Zero Year, which I don’t believe I count in any way at all).

12. Alfred raised Bruce and is his father-figure and closest confidant. Former actor, former low-level non-miliary-type very-not-James-Bond-like British intelligence (very briefly). Joe Chill was the killer of Bruce's parents, and I think I have Morrison’s Batman #673 "Joe Chill in Hell" as Chill’s end (which is one the darkest periods in Bruce's life, a time he regrets, this angry "golden age" more ruthless vengeful-ish time in his life).

13. As far as an 'ending' for Batman: Dark Knight Returns. Primarily DKR. I think the only other ending material I probably accept is from Batman #700 and Morrison's run (#666 perhaps even). "Twenty-Seven" by Scott Snyder and Sean Murphy I might accept aspects of, villains from.

[Vakanai]

Prepare for heretic and blasphemous takes incoming!!!

1. THE ORIGIN STORY

I am not beholden to Year One simply because it needs an update - it is so tied into the 80s or possibly very extremely early 90s that not updating it makes Bruce defacto well over 50+ now and aging. Certainly parts of it can remain, a lot of it, but it desperately needs a new can of paint over it so it looks like something that occurred this century and doesn't paint him as a grandpa figure in the present. Besides, I will now and forever be that fan going "you and I both know it's far less a Batman origin and far more a Jim Gordon origin" and I challenge anyone who says otherwise fight me!
I would definitely include Year One into the origin, but for me the definitive origin not for Gordon but for actual fucking the Batman I'd have to go with the Red Hood half of Zero Year (but only the Red Hood part of the saga, fuck the Riddler No Man's Land The Dark Knight Rises crap).

Zero Year is the main origin, Year One occurs during Zero Year, and some elements of other stories are used for this time as well. Namely Prey, Batman and the Monster Men (with the two stories kind of combined into a big epic Hugo Strange event), Earth One (especially the 2nd book for a better Riddler story than Zero Year, and the Batsignal phone gag is just too good not to use), and the flashback sequence of The Killing Joke. I have this idea that TKJ flashback takes place during the height of the Red Hood stuff of Zero Year, with the mob trying to cash in as someone disguised as the big Red Hood to pin their crimes on that gang - and the more interesting idea that you're never certain if the Joker we wind up with is the Red Hood from ZY or TKJ, adding to the whole multiple choice origin idea.

I would also include some elements of other media takes into the origin - showing far more of pre-Two Face Harvey Dent as Bruce's friend and showing his darker "side/self" hinting at what is to come, with a lot of inspiration coming from Batman: The Animated Series and CW's Gotham Knights (seriously that show was underrated and I loved the Harvey stuff) would really strengthen the impact of Harv's turn later on in The Long Halloween. I also wouldn't mind making Bruce and Selina friends and close growing up like Fox's Gotham, plus I'd love to add Gordon and Bullock having been partners early on in the GCPD like in that show - just handwave him coming to Gotham in Year One as his return after like a decade's absence having moved to a safer city or something. I'd also add in Gotham's Red Hood episode/s to maybe make it be an inspiration for the Red Hood/s that comes after Bruce puts on the cowl. Little details mostly, but stuff that I think make the Bat-world overall even richer.

2. Joker Stuff

I've already mentioned I'd combine both Zero Year and The Killing Joke Red Hood stuff to muddy up the waters even further on who Joker was before he became Joker (if he even was ever Red Hood), but to make it even more impossible to put a definitive origin on who he is I'd also include 1989's movie Batman a bit by having Jack Napier come up against Batman and fall into a vat too. Which of the three victims of Ace Chemicals possibly survived to become Joker? We may never know...

As for when he's actually the Joker though? This is where even I can't be that crazy heretic going against the grain - The Man Who Laughs is pretty much the definitive story, least that I've seen/read/whatever'd, so can't really go against that. However unlike many fans it's not like I've ever read a different first Joker story either, so it's pretty much just this book and the movies Batman and The Dark Knight for Joker opening salvos for me. Maybe I'll read King's new Batman: The Winning Card and decide to add elements of that to here, I don't know, up for recommendations on first/early Joker stories.

Outside of his nebulous origin and his first fights with the Bat you definitely need classic stories like Laughing Fish and Five Way Revenge (that later one I really need to read some day).

3. The Batmobile and Batsignal

For the car I gotta go with the two big Hugo Strange stories Prey and Monster Men. Especially Monster Men just because I love that moment of humor with Alfred so much.

For the signal, I kind of like the idea is was a phone/walkie-talkie to let Gordon contact him before it was the big light in the sky, and it became the light we know because Gordon felt compromised ethically having the thing on him. Earth One, I think book two again(?) has the best scene introducing the whole Batphone early take on the signal, and ranks with Monster Men's Alfred and the Batmobile as one of the best gags in the franchise ever. Either Monster Men or Mad Monk featured Gordon with a Bat-walkie-talkie and confessing he didn't like having it, hinting to the light in the sky signal we'd eventually get. And Prey introduced the light after Gordon was inspired by seeing Batman's shadow in the light of a lamp but honestly I'd have to go with the movie Batman Begins whole Falcone on a searchlight scene just because it's too cinematic to pass up. So that's sort of my perfect head canon (cannon?) for the signal, just a neat and interesting evolution on the idea of contacting Batman.

4. Robin the Boy Wonder

I also don't have a specific preference for Robin's Origin, so just got to default to Dark Victory for now. But I plan to read Robin: Year One and the recent miniseries Robin & Batman so I might come back to this and update/adjust this section. Also, as not-good for mainstream takes as it is and as much as I don't want it informing this sort of thing - again, as bad as All Star Batman and Robin is all together that bit where Batman drives young Dick into the epic sprawling neat stuff everywhere Batcave is a pure magic moment of awesome that should be somehow included I feel. Ditch the rest of that book, but that scene is too good to lose.

5. Harvey Dent, Two Face

Like I mentioned before, pre-Two Face I want inspiration drawn from Batman: The Animated Series and the sadly canceled too soon Gotham Knights for the whole good Harv/bad Harv stuff and buildup. And while I want it mostly to just be The Long Halloween (with ZERO input from that butchery of an animated "adaptation" added) I definitely want to add some bits of Harleen to it. Basically like how in my head Year One and TKJ flashback happens during Zero Year, in my head some version of Harleen happens during Long Halloween. That whole scene with Harvey and Harleen talking/arguing before they became villains is great. Seriously it's so good I read it like 3/4 times just that scene alone I feel when I got that issue. Can't remember it well now, def needs a rereading.


I'll come back later probably and add 6-13 points of my own choosing on what makes a "perfect" Batman to me, but this feels like a good start, especially on my favorite "early" years era. Plus it reminded me of books I want to check out like Robin & Batman or Five Way Revenge, and books I'd like to reread like Harleen, so that's great. Plus I got to rock the boat and state that Year One is a subpar origin for Batman himself despite how good it is as just a book and especially Jim Gordan book (because really, it is a great Gordan book, it's just not a good Bruce/Batman book) and how much better at least the first half of Zero Year is as a Batman specifically origin. Year One is the better overall book and better Jim Gordan origin, Zero Year is the better Batman origin, and both actually work pretty good together if you think of them like that. Make Year One a Gordan origin in the midst of the larger Zero Year Batman origin and it's pretty great. Shame the Riddler half is such suck and should be ignored. Doing an early years No Man's Land type story with Riddler as the "mastermind" behind that was dumb. Also felt it was dumb when Bane did it in Rises. I get there's some nostalgia and love for the No Man's era, but just insert new stories during that period or write Alt U stories set in that period, don't go making new No Man's Land stories outside of it, it's just a bad idea that only diminishes the impact of the OG version. Anyways I'm rambling now so toodles!

[bat39]

Bat39, borrowed portions of your answers (since we agree on a lot!....we agree a good bit less on Superman interestingly enough)

I think that's true of the fandom as a whole People tend to agree on Batman a lot more than they do on Superman. It also helps that creators (and fans) have done a better job reconciling multiple interpretations of the Dark Knight than they have with the Man of Steel.

Anyway, it seems our only major disagreement is on the ending. You prefer DKR, while I prefer something akin to Earth 2.

Prepare for heretic and blasphemous takes incoming!!!

1. THE ORIGIN STORY

Zero Year is the main origin, Year One occurs during Zero Year, and some elements of other stories are used for this time as well. Namely Prey, Batman and the Monster Men (with the two stories kind of combined into a big epic Hugo Strange event), Earth One (especially the 2nd book for a better Riddler story than Zero Year, and the Batsignal phone gag is just too good not to use), and the flashback sequence of The Killing Joke. I have this idea that TKJ flashback takes place during the height of the Red Hood stuff of Zero Year, with the mob trying to cash in as someone disguised as the big Red Hood to pin their crimes on that gang - and the more interesting idea that you're never certain if the Joker we wind up with is the Red Hood from ZY or TKJ, adding to the whole multiple choice origin idea.

I would also include some elements of other media takes into the origin - showing far more of pre-Two Face Harvey Dent as Bruce's friend and showing his darker "side/self" hinting at what is to come, with a lot of inspiration coming from Batman: The Animated Series and CW's Gotham Knights (seriously that show was underrated and I loved the Harvey stuff) would really strengthen the impact of Harv's turn later on in The Long Halloween. I also wouldn't mind making Bruce and Selina friends and close growing up like Fox's Gotham, plus I'd love to add Gordon and Bullock having been partners early on in the GCPD like in that show - just handwave him coming to Gotham in Year One as his return after like a decade's absence having moved to a safer city or something. I'd also add in Gotham's Red Hood episode/s to maybe make it be an inspiration for the Red Hood/s that comes after Bruce puts on the cowl. Little details mostly, but stuff that I think make the Bat-world overall even richer.

While I would treat Year One as the base (and the story being 'dated' isn't an issue at all - I've always loved the idea of Gotham being this somewhat anachronistic place ala BTAS), I generally love a lot of your ideas here. As you've rightly said, Year One does feel, to a significant extent, more like a Gordon story than a Batman one, and as a result there are some significant gaps on the Batman side of things in that story which can be filled in by elements from other stories.

In particular, I LOVE the part in bold, and it's pretty much what I was hinting at (though you've expressed it a lot more plainly).

As for Gordon, I think him being from Gotham but having spent some time in Chicago before returning right at the start of Batman's career has pretty much been canon since the New 52. I think that, plus him having had two wives (with Sarah Essen then being the third I suppose!) goes a long way towards reconciling a lot of the contradictions with him.

The way I see it, Gordon was a beat cop or had just made Detective when the Wayne murders happened. He left Gotham a few years later and moved to Chicago where he had his first marriage with a woman named Thelma. They had a daughter named Barbara (Jim named her after an old flame of his). Well over a decade later, Gordon and Thelma split, and Gordon got married to his old flame Barbara. Then they move back to Gotham at the start of Year One, and during the course of the year, James Jr. is born. A few years later, Barbara moves to Gotham as well (maybe once Thelma passes away).

[JBatmanFan05]

Anyway, it seems our only major disagreement is on the ending. You prefer DKR, while I prefer something akin to Earth 2.

Yes, and your choice, the old Earth-2 ending, is my second favorite, so I totally appreciate that end (you can tell Tom King likes it as well, since he basically more or less coopted it for his end).
DKR is just a seminal story, such a quality tale, compelling, epic...I just ..have to pick that (I ignore DKSA, etc). It's also a sentimental pick for me in that DKR was like my first Post-COIE Batman comic exposure, it brought me a lot to the Batman comics dance (after growing up watching Adam West reruns).

[bat39]

Yes, and your choice, the old Earth-2 ending, is my second favorite, so I totally appreciate that end (you can tell Tom King likes it as well, since he basically more or less coopted it for his end).
DKR is just a seminal story, such a quality tale, compelling, epic...I just ..have to pick that (I ignore DKSA, etc). It's also a sentimental pick for me in that DKR was like my first Post-COIE Batman comic exposure, it brought me a lot to the Batman comics dance (after growing up watching Adam West reruns).

Yeah, funnily enough, I tend to view DKR as a Pre-COIE Batman story...of sorts. A possible ending for the Silver/Bronze Age Batman.

As great a story as DKR is, I just prefer the idea of Batman having a relatively happier ending...well, up until his death of course.

[JBatmanFan05]

Yeah, funnily enough, I tend to view DKR as a Pre-COIE Batman story...of sorts. A possible ending for the Silver/Bronze Age Batman.

Yeah, I've heard this view before, and it rings somewhat true, feels accurate (at least a bit). And of course makes sense when you consider when Frank would have been writing it and consider Frank's likely life experience with Batman. Reading DKR through that lens can fit a lot.

As great a story as DKR is, I just prefer the idea of Batman having a relatively happier ending...well, up until his death of course.

Relatively happier is the right phrasing, because I don't see DKR as an unhappy ending per se. Batman, the aged gunslinger basically, returns and saves Gotham from a lot. Its ending is open-ended, Bruce is alive and well enough...and that's it, the rest is left to one's imagination. DKR is perhaps a less romantic ending (regarding Bruce's actual romantic life), I think that's very fair to think of DKR.

[bat39]

Yeah, I've heard this view before, and it rings somewhat true, feels accurate (at least a bit). And of course makes sense when you consider when Frank would have been writing it and consider Frank's likely life experience with Batman. Reading DKR through that lens can fit a lot.


Relatively happier is the right phrasing, because I don't see DKR as an unhappy ending per se. Batman, the aged gunslinger basically, returns and saves Gotham from a lot. Its ending is open-ended, Bruce is alive and well enough...and that's it, the rest is left to one's imagination. DKR is perhaps a less romantic ending (regarding Bruce's actual romantic life), I think that's very fair to think of DKR.

I think on some level Frank Miller's Batman is basically the Adam West Batman played completely straight and taken to its logical and realistic conclusion. DKR took away all the BIFF! BAM! ZAP! and replaced it with what was really happening...the sound of criminal's spines cracking and bones breaking due to a violent beatdown. A guy who delivered beatings to criminals as a proxy for the police could be interpreted as a kind of 'fascist', and the new police of a new, more 'liberal' era with greater media scrutiny wouldn't stand for something like that - forcing Batman to be a vigilante again. Joker was treated as a Cesar Romero-esq prankster who's now rehabilitated and invited to a TV show, only to reveal his true serial killer self.

I don't think DKR is an 'unhappy ending' for Batman either, per se. But on a lot of parameters, it does have a darker context to it. DKR Bruce is consumed by his Batman persona...he spent a decade out of the cowl and yet he was still haunted by Batman and looking for a "good way to die". The "good way to live" he finds is essentially continuing Batman's mission from the shadows, even if he literally isn't wearing the cowl anymore (well, until the sequels...which I admittedly haven't read yet). DKR also has Gotham go to the dogs and become a hellscape arguably even worse than it was when Batman started out, so it does seem to suggest that Batman's initial mission was a failure. And of course, there's the fact that he ends up alone, romantically speaking.

DKR is a great ending for Batman no doubt. But it's not the one I prefer to imagine for the my headcanon Batman, and for Batman writ large. I do want Batman to have some kind of a happy ending, or at least for his mission to have some overtly positive impact in the long run...even if we don't get to see that in the 'present'. Earth 2 delivered on that. Bruce finds happiness with Selina, which is also a moral victory of sorts for Batman since he successfully rehabilitated at least one of his villains. He has a daughter who takes his heroic legacy forward in her own way. He became a respected elder statesman of the superhero community. Gotham is safe, or at least a far better place for all his efforts. And yes, tragedy did strike - Selina's death and then eventually his own. But something good comes out of tragedy - which to me really sums up what Batman's story is all about.

[Jim Kelly]

The original Batman is the best Batman. I really don't care for anything that Frank Miller did--although I enjoyed the comics at the time when they came out (I just didn't take them seriously)--none of his changes were for the better. Bill Finger rules.

[bat39]

The original Batman is the best Batman. I really don't care for anything that Frank Miller did--although I enjoyed the comics at the time when they came out (I just didn't take them seriously)--none of his changes were for the better. Bill Finger rules.

Fair enough.

Curious to know how you'd define the 'original' Batman though. Are you talking the first year of stories before Robin came in? The first few years? The entire duration of the Golden Age? The entire period up until COIE?

[Jim Kelly]

Curious to know how you'd define the 'original' Batman though.

I long ago decided that, with any work, what the original creators created is the authentic version. Anything else, as much as I might like it, is simpy an adaptation of that work and is no substitute for the real thing.

All of the Bill Finger/Bob Kane Batman, from 1938 through 1963, fits together as a whole, pretty much. Yes, there were many other writers and artists during this period, but Finger's ideas held sway and the artists were drawing in the "Bob Kane" style.

A few contradictions in continuity crop up, but none that great. The early solo Batman feels more raw, but there were only a handful of those stories (about half of them written by Gardner Fox) before the Boy Wonder. The Caped Crusader's jovial attitude bubbles to the surface in Bill Finger's early scripts. Robin joining Batman solidifies the core concept.

I give any creator a few years to figure out exactly what works and what doesn't work. By 1943, Finger and Kane (and Jerry Robinson as a junior partner) have formulated what their Dynamic Duo should be.

There were shifts in tone and topic, especially after the Comics Code, but it's all the "original" Batman and Robin.

Finger and Kane lose control of the concept when Julie Schwartz takes over as editor. Finger is the first let go (probably at Bob Kane's urging) and then Kane himself is eased out. Still, the period between 1964 and 1969 has much of the same sensibility as the comics before that.

It's at the end of 1969, with Dick Grayson suddenly old enough to graduate, that there's a major shift. By introducing the concept of advancing time, rather than a continual status quo, this will serve to undermine the prevailing sense of an unchanging Gotham. Even though I really love the 1970s, the changes in that decade allow all the other changes to follow.

Nevertheless, in the 1970s, Schwartz (and other editors) brought back many concepts that had fallen by the wayside after the Comics Code and after the "New Look." For example, the Englehart/Rogers/Austin DETECTIVE run celebrates what was great about the 1940s Batman.

Once Schwartz is gone, circa 1979, any attachment to the past is lost. We're now in a transition phase where old ideas are recycled as new. And then with "Year One," everything is erased and rejigged. From there it devolves into a Dark Knight that I care less and less about. The original Finger and Kane Batman has been hollowed out and filled in with all the stuff that appeals to the current market.

[Stanlos]

Batman (and also Catwoman really) are just independent James Bonds. He independently goes round righting wrongs and defending the city at night but he also does hugh level international stuff thwarting corrupt governments like Bialya when the League affiliation requires it.

[bat39]

I long ago decided that, with any work, what the original creators created is the authentic version. Anything else, as much as I might like it, is simpy an adaptation of that work and is no substitute for the real thing.

All of the Bill Finger/Bob Kane Batman, from 1938 through 1963, fits together as a whole, pretty much. Yes, there were many other writers and artists during this period, but Finger's ideas held sway and the artists were drawing in the "Bob Kane" style.

A few contradictions in continuity crop up, but none that great. The early solo Batman feels more raw, but there were only a handful of those stories (about half of them written by Gardner Fox) before the Boy Wonder. The Caped Crusader's jovial attitude bubbles to the surface in Bill Finger's early scripts. Robin joining Batman solidifies the core concept.

I give any creator a few years to figure out exactly what works and what doesn't work. By 1943, Finger and Kane (and Jerry Robinson as a junior partner) have formulated what their Dynamic Duo should be.

There were shifts in tone and topic, especially after the Comics Code, but it's all the "original" Batman and Robin.

Finger and Kane lose control of the concept when Julie Schwartz takes over as editor. Finger is the first let go (probably at Bob Kane's urging) and then Kane himself is eased out. Still, the period between 1964 and 1969 has much of the same sensibility as the comics before that.

It's at the end of 1969, with Dick Grayson suddenly old enough to graduate, that there's a major shift. By introducing the concept of advancing time, rather than a continual status quo, this will serve to undermine the prevailing sense of an unchanging Gotham. Even though I really love the 1970s, the changes in that decade allow all the other changes to follow.

Nevertheless, in the 1970s, Schwartz (and other editors) brought back many concepts that had fallen by the wayside after the Comics Code and after the "New Look." For example, the Englehart/Rogers/Austin DETECTIVE run celebrates what was great about the 1940s Batman.

Once Schwartz is gone, circa 1979, any attachment to the past is lost. We're now in a transition phase where old ideas are recycled as new. And then with "Year One," everything is erased and rejigged. From there it devolves into a Dark Knight that I care less and less about. The original Finger and Kane Batman has been hollowed out and filled in with all the stuff that appeals to the current market.

Thanks for the very detailed explanation

So if I were to sum it up - you believe that the original Batman lasted between 1939 and 1969, from 1969 to 1979 there was some drift some the original concept, and from 1979 onwards the original character was gone?

[Jim Kelly]

Thanks for the very detailed explanation

So if I were to sum it up - you believe that the original Batman lasted between 1939 and 1969, from 1969 to 1979 there was some drift some the original concept, and from 1979 onwards the original character was gone?

Yes. Although I would say that from 1969 through 1986, it's a gradual drift away from the original concept. Like Theseus's Boat, parts of Batman are replaced until nothing of the orginal is left.

Miller's Return of the Dark Knight in 1986 doesn't actually change anything, because it's just an imaginary story about a possible future and there had already been many of those.

The hollowing out truly begins in 1987, when Denny O'Neil as editor allows writers to change so much of the continuity. In BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT and other books, it's established that Batman met virtually all of his Rogues Gallery before he ever teamed up with Robin, the Boy Wonder.

This never bothers me when I watch movies, even though they make just as many changes to the content. Because I know it's an adaptation. I guess, for my own peace of mind, it's best to regard all the modern comic books as adaptations, as well. It's like there's the Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes and then there's everything else based on that.

[bat39]

Yes. Although I would say that from 1969 through 1986, it's a gradual drift away from the original concept. Like Theseus's Boat, parts of Batman are replaced until nothing of the orginal is left.

Miller's Return of the Dark Knight in 1986 doesn't actually change anything, because it's just an imaginary story about a possible future and there had already been many of those.

The hollowing out truly begins in 1987, when Denny O'Neil as editor allows writers to change so much of the continuity. In BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT and other books, it's established that Batman met virtually all of his Rogues Gallery before he ever teamed up with Robin, the Boy Wonder.

This never bothers me when I watch movies, even though they make just as many changes to the content. Because I know it's an adaptation. I guess, for my own peace of mind, it's best to regard all the modern comic books as adaptations, as well. It's like there's the Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes and then there's everything else based on that.

That's an interesting point. We don't usually think of it that way when it comes to superhero comics because 'canon' is a much more nebulous concept that goes beyond the original creators. 'Canon', in the world of superhero comics, isn't what was written by the original creators, but rather, what the copyright owners declare at any given point to be part of the 'official' continuity.

When it comes to Sherlock Holmes, its clear that the 60 stories written by Arthur Conan Doyle are the 'canon'. If someone writes a new Holmes book set in 2023, then even if that someone is 'authorized' by the Doyle estate (not that it is needed, since the character has long been in the public domain), said project won't be considered 'canon'.

And yet when it comes to, say, Batman, the latest Batman issue by Chip Zdarsky is very much 'canon' because DC Comics decrees that it is. In fact, paradoxically, Chip Zdarsky's latest issue is canon, while the original 1939-40 Batman stories by Bob Kane and Bill Finger are most likely not officially 'canon' in mainline DC continuity!