Thoughts on The Dark Knight - 15 Years On

[bat39]

Hard to believe that this movie has existed now for nearly half my friggin' life!

Obviously, its a day for celebration for all us Batman and DC fans. And we can celebrate on the other thread. But on this one, we can share our thoughts on the film - its narrative, its performances, its themes, and its allegories and socio-political subtexts (of which there are many!)

15 years on, with my understanding of the superhero genre and of cinema having significantly advanced since I was a teenager with my butt on the theatre seat watching Christian Bale and the legendary Heath Ledger (may his soul forever rest in peace), I think what stands out to me about TDK is simply the fact that it's the quintessential Batman film, in a certain sense. It doesn't have an 'angle'. It doesn't have to be an origin story, or to reinvent the character for a new era. It doesn't have to be an ending to the character's story. It doesn't have to introduce a Robin or a Batgirl. It doesn't have the pressure of making Batman and his world 'dark and grounded' or 'light-hearted and kid-friendly'. It doesn't have to deal with some intricate mystery or complex backstory. It's just a simple story of Batman versus the Joker told across 2.5 hours - and the impact that elemental conflict between Order and Chaos has on an entire city at multiple levels.

There's just something so fundamental about the whole narrative. The Joker is an agent of chaos. He steals, kidnaps, kills and blows up buildings for the heck of it. Batman tries to stop him. The difference between them boils down to the fact that the Joker doesn't give a f#ck about anything. Batman, on the other hand, has constraints - people he cares about, an obligation to safeguard innocent lives, and his 'one rule' against killing. That contrast is really what fuels their conflict throughout the film. And its brought into stark relief in the interrogation scene. The Joker is in custody in a secure room at the GCPD, but he doesn't give a f#ck. He's totally in control while Batman, with all the strength and resources at his command, is totally helpless. All he can do is deliver a beat-down, but not too severe a beat-down because he can't break his 'one rule' Even his allies, Gordon and the cops, can't help him - if anything, they would have to try to stop him from injuring the prisoner too much.

The corruption of Harvey Dent is accomplished by the Joker essentially showing the physically and psychologically scarred DA how much more empowering and liberating it is to not give a f#ck and simply give into your worst impulses. Harvey was the more 'legit' crusader for justice in Gotham, albeit constrained by the law in a way that Batman wasn't. And he becomes Two-Face, a murderous psychopath like the Joker, albeit he's constrained there too by a coin toss. Harvey gets caught between the elemental forces of Order and Chaos, not fitting perfectly into either side, but representing both of them. Fitting for Two Face!

It's a pretty depressing tale seen in that light, but the Batman-Joker conflict does have a bit of a ray-of-hope ending with the two ferries, and the decision of the citizens of Gotham to not kill their fellow man for their own survival. I suppose the message is that while Chaos might have the edge over Order in the elemental battle between the two, maybe the ordinary guy or girl in the street is our last hope at salvation? The world is imperfect, its easier to be an anarchist than an honest cop, DA, or masked vigilante, but fighting the good fight, however futile it may seem and whatever it costs, might be worth it to protect good people like the ones on those ferries. I guess, in a way, that really sums up the ethos of Batman, and the superhero genre in general.

Anyway, I guess I'll just keep rambling on, so better end this. What are your thoughts on TDK, 15 years on?

[JBatmanFan05]

Overall, I'm not nearly as big as on Nolan's cold sterile Kubrickian vision of Batman and his world as some fans are. I think Begins is the best and not overlong (more efficient, well-paced), and most compelling of Nolan's 3 Batflicks. The Dark Knight I remember I walked in to theater curious to see if Ledger's Joker lived up to the hype and it did. Ledger lost himself in The Joker and his Joker will be remembered forever as one of the best Jokers. The problems for me with The Dark Knight are the rest of the film....it's simply too long, and kind all over the place for it, undercuts the themes at work in it. Nolan obviously didn't care much about Harvey's acid origin, the pairing with Rachel I didn't care for or find much true to either character. A lot of little stuff just didn't work for me and the film being overlong, too ambitious amplified all that. The film simply isn't as smart as tries to be, it feels sillier the more I watch it.

I agree a lot with this 2014 review:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...istopher-nolan

[Batman Begins 2005]

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...8)-is-15-today

[Alan2099]

As long as we're posting links, this blogpost sums up my thoughts on Ledger as Joker pretty well.

http://absorbascon.blogspot.com/2019...h-ledgers.html

But if you don't feel like clikcing it, let me just quote this one paragraph.

But Ledger's Joker, while admittedly intense, was also clearly ... not genuine. There was little sense that this was an actual crazy person or an evil genius with a wicked sense of humor. Ledger's Joker was an act, a put-on, a disillusioned man putting on a crazy act to convince others, and himself, that he didn't care about anything. But he did care; he was a nihilistic ideologue DESPERATE to prove his point to others, and painfully needy. He didn't leave chaos in his wake; everything he did was painstakingly choreographed. He seemed like a sad clown, eager for approval by the audience; a tough guy, eager to show much he didn't care; a tragically realistic man, eager to come off as a lunatic. Ledger's Joker was... just a terrorist. Because I guess that's what scares current-day audiences.

[Vakanai]

When this film came out I thought it had changed superhero movies forever. I was expecting it to leave its mark for all the films to come for the next decade plus. I thought "this, this is what all superhero movies will be compared to going forward!" But it was not, sadly to my disappointment. The only one who tried to capture this sort of movie going forward was Snyder, who's much too shallow and an edgelord I feel to understand why TDK worked and only gets the cool dark visuals and nothing else. It was Iron Man leading the way to the Avengers leading the way to the cookie cutter MCU that left the mark, and the MCU that would be what all films going forward would be compared against. The MCU who's best film to me 15 years later is still the first Iron Man.

The Dark Knight was at the start of the "Golden Age" of comic book films, and it's success helped validate comic book movies more, but it wasn't the start of anything like it deserved to be. It's main legacy outside itself was setting up Snyder to control the early DCEU because Nolan recommended him to WB. Which is not the film legacy anyone I think wanted. No one I feel has ever tried to tackle The Dark Knight head on, outside maybe The Batman and even then it's not an apt comparison I feel.

The Dark Knight is still my favorite movie in the genre, a genre that doesn't even seem tempted to understand how or why that movie worked so brilliantly.

[JBatmanFan05]

As long as we're posting links, this blogpost sums up my thoughts on Ledger as Joker pretty well:
But Ledger's Joker, while admittedly intense, was also clearly ... not genuine. There was little sense that this was an actual crazy person or an evil genius with a wicked sense of humor. Ledger's Joker was an act, a put-on, a disillusioned man putting on a crazy act to convince others, and himself, that he didn't care about anything. But he did care; he was a nihilistic ideologue DESPERATE to prove his point to others, and painfully needy. He didn't leave chaos in his wake; everything he did was painstakingly choreographed. He seemed like a sad clown, eager for approval by the audience; a tough guy, eager to show much he didn't care; a tragically realistic man, eager to come off as a lunatic. Ledger's Joker was... just a terrorist. Because I guess that's what scares current-day audiences.

I think there's a lot of truth in this quote, but: there's big differences between legal insanity ("crazy") and mental illnesses/personality disorders like psychopathy/sociopathy ("crazy"), so I would caution anyone on rushing to firm or imprecise conclusions on Ledger's Joker that might not comport with some science. Ledger's Joker is not legally insane, he knows well enough, it seems, that what he is doing is wrong and has the capacity and all regarding appreciating all that. But just because he's not legally insane doesn't mean he doesn't have a serious mental disorder. Maybe Ledger's Joker is "crazy" depending on one's personal umbrella for what that term means to them.

For me, I don't know, I struggle because in one sense he clearly enough isn't crazy, but in another sense, he could very well be, it might even be very likely. A old once-best friend I grew up with became a career criminal at a fairly young age (after we had ended our childhood friendship), and he's the only (known) psychopath/sociopath/APD I think I have ever met. And I've encountered him a few times since childhood, since his incarcerations, and he's not legally insane at all, but he felt "crazy" to me, he's very off and you very much can tell and feel it when conversing with him, given time he becomes far too open and forthcoming about disturbing thoughts and ideas. If anyone has ever seen the film The Good Son with M.Culkin, this old friend was somewhat very similar to that (though no murder as far as I or law enforcement know). So ya, I'm kinda saying that meeting a real serious criminal/career criminal might change one's perspective on this subject of what is "crazy." You might reconsider whether some mere nihilistic ideologue (like you might find on the internet, who like never breaks any significant laws, lives in the basement) and what all we see from Ledger's Joker are much the same thing (and I'm not necessarily suggesting that Ledger's Joker couldn't be a nihilistic ideologue, it'd just be that he'd probably be so much more than just that given his observed/implied crimes/behavior).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ker-psychopath

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiso...ality_disorder