Which Marvel villains don't make sense as characters?

[williamtheday]

Shocker doesn’t patent his equipment invention. He uses it to rob banks. Then complains when he’s beat up by superheroes or arrested.

"The criminal mind is erratic and illogical"--Batman, 1966 (or was it Mr.Spock STTOS)?

[Babylon23]

These guys are all great. Would love to see them all in a mini. Like Superior Foes. That was a blast.

No argument here. I love all of these guys. Then again, my favourite villain is pre-comedy relief MODOK...

[chamber-music]

This could apply to a lot of the 60's villains - Beetle, Porcupine, Stilt-Man, Blizzard, Plantman, Shocker, Whiplash, Leap-Frog, Living Laser, Melter, etc. There were so many engineers/inventors creating devices that could have been patented and marketed for either domestic or military purposes.

Some of these super scientists or billionaire crime bosses could probably just love the power of being a supervillain. Walter White from Breaking Bad is a prime example. At a certain point the character became drunk on the power of being a master criminal.

Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom or Kingpin don't need to be supervillains because they have become wealthy, powerful and successful. Each of those characters choose to do villainous stuff (a lot of times out of egotism).

[Alan2099]

Shocker doesn’t patent his equipment invention. He uses it to rob banks. Then complains when he’s beat up by superheroes or arrested.

I'm fairly sure they've described Shocker's blasters as a health hazard before. There's a good chance that nobody would want them even if he did patent them.

A lot of these guys probabaly wouldn't even know where to go to get started making money on their gadgets. They'd have to patent them, find a buyer that isn't going to screw them over, make deals, do paperwork, and maybe in a few months they'll see some kind of paycheck ... OR they could shoot a hole in the bank wall and walk out with money this afternoon AND not have to pay taxes!

[The Overlord]

Some of these super scientists or billionaire crime bosses could probably just love the power of being a supervillain. Walter White from Breaking Bad is a prime example. At a certain point the character became drunk on the power of being a master criminal.

Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom or Kingpin don't need to be supervillains because they have become wealthy, powerful and successful. Each of those characters choose to do villainous stuff (a lot of times out of egotism).

Yeah, but Walter White wasn't being a public criminal who was getting arrested all the time, he tried to maintain a civilian life.

Like someone like Wizard would be a million times more dangerous if he kept his public reputation and used his wealth to attack the Fantastic Four in secret, instead of being a lame 3rd rate public supervillain. This guy is supposed a genius and he can't figure that out?

[scribbleMind]

Wizard is a genius, but he's also very clearly out of his mind, or at least he has been in every modern portrayal. Arguing that Wizard isn't rational is like arguing that Deadpool isn't rational.

[Alan2099]

Wizard doesn't want to just win. He wants to win publicly. Attacking the Fantastic Four in secret doesn't get him that. He's mind set is more along the lines of "I will show them! I will show them all!"

Another fault the Wizard has is that he's probabaly somewhere in the top 300 smartest people on the planet. That's nothing to scoff at, but he competes with the two guys that hold the #1 and #2 position. If he was a New Warriors villain or a Daredevil villain, he'd be held to a lot higher esteem.

[The Overlord]

Wizard doesn't want to just win. He wants to win publicly. Attacking the Fantastic Four in secret doesn't get him that. He's mind set is more along the lines of "I will show them! I will show them all!"

Another fault the Wizard has is that he's probabaly somewhere in the top 300 smartest people on the planet. That's nothing to scoff at, but he competes with the two guys that hold the #1 and #2 position. If he was a New Warriors villain or a Daredevil villain, he'd be held to a lot higher esteem.

1. If he is so obsessed with his image, why would he give up being a celebrity who would at least be kinda liked by the public, to become a public supervillain attacking one of the more popular superhero groups around, which would earn nothing but scorn from the public? Seriously Mysterio is obsessed with fame too, but at least he tried to pretend to be a hero in his first appearance and went after a hero disliked by the public.

2. Maybe Wizard should switch rogues galleries then, he doesn't seem like a Fantastic Four level at this point. Part of this is the writers making Reed Richards so overpowered that becomes both ridiculous and starts to limit what can actually be a threat to the FF, but another problem is he has not upped his game since the late 1960s, so it seems like the FF have outgrown him a long time ago. It feels like past the 1960s, the writers used him because he was an original Silver Age rogue, not because they new interesting things to say about this character.

I didn't realize it's been so long since Wizard appeared in the comics, time flies, I didn't think Superior Carnage was over ten years ago. I think the writers came to the same conclusion I did, that Wizard sucks as a villain, which is a shame, I do think he could be an interesting villain if the writers tried a bit harder with him. The pissing contest between him and Reed is not interesting, it seems one-sided and a knock-off the Doctor Doo-Reed Richards rivalry, give him something different to do and you might have something. But the writers don't want to try to do something with him, maybe he should be in limbo then, it would be interesting if someone give him a real character-focused story though.

Wizard is a genius, but he's also very clearly out of his mind, or at least he has been in every modern portrayal. Arguing that Wizard isn't rational is like arguing that Deadpool isn't rational.

Okay, but what mental illness does Wizard actually have? Just saying ''he's out of his mind'', is not a motivation. Does he have a chemical imbalance in his brain that could be treated with medicine? Does he have a childhood trauma that affects him as an adult? You need a little more here.

Frankly, comic books are not the best at addressing mental illness, though Wizard having a mental breakdown is the closest thing he had to character development and it went nowhere. Wizard kept on talking about God during his mental breakdown, what was that about? Were his parents religious? Was he religious at one point? Did he have a falling out with his parents over religion?

I'm fairly sure they've described Shocker's blasters as a health hazard before. There's a good chance that nobody would want them even if he did patent them.

A lot of these guys probabaly wouldn't even know where to go to get started making money on their gadgets. They'd have to patent them, find a buyer that isn't going to screw them over, make deals, do paperwork, and maybe in a few months they'll see some kind of paycheck ... OR they could shoot a hole in the bank wall and walk out with money this afternoon AND not have to pay taxes!

1. How much does Jeff Bezos pay in taxes? If these guys marketed their tech and formed their own companies, they could hire some accountants to exploit every legal loophole to ensure they pay almost nothing.

2. Has Shocker ever been injured by his own tech?

3. Show or tell, never just imply. Having some dialogue where some of these villains were screwed out of the rights for their tech by Roxxon or something and they are using it illegally. This doesn't have to be a full backstory, but a little bit of dialogue could make their motives a little more plausible.

4. If you are not going to do the third point, maybe give these villains the opportunity to change and see what happens. There was actually a prose short story from the 90s where Trapster set up a fake identity and sold his paste legitimately and actually tried to improve his life. It fall apart in the end, but he tried. That is what made Batman the animated series so great, not only were the villains given backstories, but they were given opportunities to change, they usually didn't take them, but the opportunities were given. At this point, my problem with guys like Trapster and Shocker is not a lack of backstory, it's a lack of self-reflection. They seem like they would be miserable as supervillains at this point, they hardly have any real friends, they are in and out of prison, they constantly get betrayed by people they trust, and they get beaten up by superheroes all the time. At a certain point these villains would have to ask themselves, is this worth it? And that is where you can get an interesting character-based story with these villains.

[Lukmendes]

Hydro Man would make a great member. Not only is he a good substitute for Sandman, but he manages to match the FF characters far better.

He's water, so he's the opposite of Human Torch.
He's got a blue shape change-y body so he matches Mr. Fantastic.
He's see through, so he matches Invisible Woman.
Thing is the only one he doesn't really match well against, but there's still mileage you can squeeze out of water vs stone.

He can be used to get Thing off his feet and drag him somewhere else at least, or at least try to lol.

I'm fairly sure they've described Shocker's blasters as a health hazard before. There's a good chance that nobody would want them even if he did patent them.

I think it was also said that even if Shocker was willing to try to make money legally with it, his reputation would make people not want work with him.

A lot of these guys probabaly wouldn't even know where to go to get started making money on their gadgets. They'd have to patent them, find a buyer that isn't going to screw them over, make deals, do paperwork, and maybe in a few months they'll see some kind of paycheck ... OR they could shoot a hole in the bank wall and walk out with money this afternoon AND not have to pay taxes!

They failed the first 29 times, but thirtieth time is the charm right? .

[Crimz]

Was literally about to say the Wizard lol

[scribbleMind]

I very much disagree. Wizard's a mad scientist, following a long tradition of mad scientists. It's not necessary to diagnose him. No one is going through every piece of media trying to diagnose every mad scientist because they don't work otherwise. Most of them aren't diagnosed. In fact, most character in general who are mad are never diagnosed. To mention Deadpool again, we know he's sick, but no one specifically went out of their way to say he was schizophrenic when he had voices in his head even though that's what that was until the Madcap retcon. I can speculate, throw out a number of likely illnesses, but I don't see the point. These characters are old, and open discussion and exploration of mental health is relatively new. As far as I'm concerned it is far more difficult to argue for his sanity, and that's good enough for me.

[Crimz]

I very much disagree. Wizard's a mad scientist, following a long tradition of mad scientists. It's not necessary to diagnose him. No one is going through every piece of media trying to diagnose every mad scientist because they don't work otherwise. Most of them aren't diagnosed. In fact, most character in general who are mad are never diagnosed. To mention Deadpool again, we know he's sick, but no one specifically went out of their way to say he was schizophrenic when he had voices in his head even though that's what that was until the Madcap retcon. I can speculate, throw out a number of likely illnesses, but I don't see the point. These characters are old, and open discussion and exploration of mental health is relatively new. As far as I'm concerned it is far more difficult to argue for his sanity, and that's good enough for me.

For me, he commits the greatest sin a character could do. He's boring. Nothing he does is interesting or special, his motivation is done infinitely better by Doom. There areno great Wizard stories and he is not threatening at all.

So what's the point of him?

Everything about him is done better by another villain and he has no interesting qualities. His reason to target the FF doesnt work or make sense. He's just around because Stan and Jack created him. Out of all the characters they've created, I think he's one of the very few duds (every character can't be a winner) and there's no reason to keep him around.

[The Overlord]

I very much disagree. Wizard's a mad scientist, following a long tradition of mad scientists. It's not necessary to diagnose him. No one is going through every piece of media trying to diagnose every mad scientist because they don't work otherwise. Most of them aren't diagnosed. In fact, most character in general who are mad are never diagnosed. To mention Deadpool again, we know he's sick, but no one specifically went out of their way to say he was schizophrenic when he had voices in his head even though that's what that was until the Madcap retcon. I can speculate, throw out a number of likely illnesses, but I don't see the point. These characters are old, and open discussion and exploration of mental health is relatively new. As far as I'm concerned it is far more difficult to argue for his sanity, and that's good enough for me.

But mad scientist is an archetype, not a character, it can be done well or done poorly, and with Wizard it's done poorly. Just saying ''he's mad'' is lazy writing. Do you mean he is an eccentric psychopath or someone who is criminally insane and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong?

There are just better mad scientists out there, ones like Dr. Doom and Dr. Octopus are more complex than the Wizard, and ones like Arnim Zola and Mr. Sinister are more menacing than Wizard. Maybe going into Wizard's psychology, maybe giving him a backstory or something, really give him something new.

For me, he commits the greatest sin a character could do. He's boring. Nothing he does is interesting or special, his motivation is done infinitely better by Doom. There areno great Wizard stories and he is not threatening at all.

So what's the point of him?

Everything about him is done better by another villain and he has no interesting qualities. His reason to target the FF doesnt work or make sense. He's just around because Stan and Jack created him. Out of all the characters they've created, I think he's one of the very few duds (every character can't be a winner) and there's no reason to keep him around.

Exactly, a mad scientist is an archetype, not a character.

There are tons of Marvel mad scientists I like for various reasons: Dr. Doom, Dr. Octopus, Arnim Zola, Mr. Sinister at times, etc. I kinda like someone like Mad Thinker, who I think has a lot of potential, but is hard to write correctly and is usually underwritten.

Wizard is an uninteresting mad scientist, there are mad scientists in the Marvel that are either more complex (like Doom or Doc Ock) or just more menacing (Zola, Sinister).

[scribbleMind]

I was never arguing that Wizard was good, interesting, complex, or well written. Only that we know he's not all there, you can compare him to Bentley 23 and figure that out, so it isn't crazy that he isn't taking the most logical path with his intelligence. That's all.

[The Overlord]

I was never arguing that Wizard was good, interesting, complex, or well written. Only that we know he's not all there, you can compare him to Bentley 23 and figure that out, so it isn't crazy that he isn't taking the most logical path with his intelligence. That's all.

I think if the writers explored Wizard's madness, his motives would make more sense and he could become a more compelling character in the process.