Why is the Punisher so appealing to the military and the police?

[marhawkman]

I would throw in the Punisher's literary predecessor and possible inspiration --- Mack Bolan, The Executioner.





Points, though I would add that when Gerry Conway created the Punisher, it was as a villain for Spider-Man, and somewhat truer to how real-world lethal vigilantism would tend to go, he went after (and nearly killed) the wrong person after being convinced that he would be dishing out rightful justice to a scumbag who deserved to die by someone using him as a pawn for his own revenge scheme against Spider-Man. Furthermore, Conway went on record more recently describing the Punisher as initially an indictment of the justice system's failure to live up to its claims of being there to protect people, which made it even more troubling to him, among others, that so many tasked with bringing justice and enforcing the law would embrace him as an aspirational symbol, rather than a cautionary tale, a warning, or even a tragedy.

well, the "Dirty Harry" take....that hits the same check box. Being on the inside lets you see things for being what they are... and often gives even MORe reason to want to change them.

[JT221]

I am curious...has anyone who has responded in this thread been in the military or in law enforcement?

[marhawkman]

I am curious...has anyone who has responded in this thread been in the military or in law enforcement?

I'm disabled, retired US Army.

[clonegeek]

Because the symbol is cool

[KurtW95]

Because they put themselves into harm's way to deal with bad people who seek to hurt others. He doesn't have any powers but goes after the worst of the worst.

Our platoon had its own nickname, one that went beyond Cadillac. We called ourselves the Punishers... We all thought what the Punisher did was cool: He righted wrongs. He killed bad guys. He made wrongdoers fear him. That’s what we were all about. So we adapted his symbol—a skull—and made it our own, with some modifications. -Chris Kyle

It's crazy to me that anyone would have a problem with this at all.

[InfamousBG]

I am curious...has anyone who has responded in this thread been in the military or in law enforcement?

My family is all military and my uncle and friends are cops. None of them would ever use the Punisher skull to represent them.

I have asked multiple cops if the Punisher logo represents them. They get offended each time I ask. "Cops are not killers or mass murderers".

[Midnight_v]

My family is all military and my uncle and friends are cops. None of them would ever use the Punisher skull to represent them.

I have asked multiple cops if the Punisher logo represents them. They get offended each time I ask. "Cops are not killers or mass murderers".

Doubt.
but... its dumfounding that you'd ask them that.
You're asking the wrong question. You're asking someone who suffered through effort to achieve something, and live with it everyday if a fictional character represents them symbol
represents them. Moreover, law enforcement in real life aren't en masse like the depictions you see on tv, they're not stupid, especially with bs set up questions. Thats the type of childish
thing to not even be considered as in "Anything but to avoid this conversation this guys trying to have with me." smh.
It... like asking an engineer "Man! Do you feel like TONY STARK represents you?". It just gives a strong feeling of "Bruh, wtg are you talking about? Comicbooks? Sigh"

But at least you needed to start your investigation, asking a warrior that actually wears one instead of the ones that aren't even thinking what you're thinking about

I am curious...has anyone who has responded in this thread been in the military or in law enforcement?

I am both, but I haven't responded really. "Stale conversation, deserves but a bread knife" after all. I'll say this though
They're not stupid. They're making inches of progress to make the place they live "relatively safer".
You know? Franly, I think the best thing you need to do to wrap you mind around this is to consider that:
"The justice system" Does NOT EQUAL "The Law Enforcement Community" AND The "Legislative/Excutive Branch" DOES NOT EQUAL "The American Fightin' Man".

YOU think you sit and see the system is broken? Because you've watched cops or hurt locker? Or LMAO "The news"? Its a ridiculous thought.
They know the justice system is broken. Marines KNOW the senate and congress work for corporations NOT the good of the people.

IMAGINE THINKING: that the Draftee or volunteer in Vietnam shouldn't wear the "Born to Kill"/"PEACE" sign.

They just know more than you about bad people, no... about people in general, and its all practical application.
Hell some large portion of people somehow don't even believe that people are ever evil and that it can be treated.

Sometimes I think its people being daft, but assuredly you can't think your way around this past the general teen angst fear of authority. But at the end of the day?
The Military/Leo, lifting in the gym in his punisher shirt isn't making some political statement other than "I'm a bad motha- shut yo mouth!". Yet there's this malaise of cowards
on the internet trying desperately to psychoanalyze and honestly (control) that same guy when they can barely control themselves.

Tl;DR? The bulk of them are not. There are over a million us warriors wearing whatever they think looks coolest in the moment.
NOT THINKING ABOUT YOU, or funny books.
The people worried about it are doing the chicken little thing because they experience the world through their pc.

[marhawkman]

Doubt.
but... its dumfounding that you'd ask them that.
You're asking the wrong question. You're asking someone who suffered through effort to achieve something, and live with it everyday if a fictional character represents them symbol
represents them. Moreover, law enforcement in real life aren't en masse like the depictions you see on tv, they're not stupid, especially with bs set up questions. Thats the type of childish
thing to not even be considered as in "Anything but to avoid this conversation this guys trying to have with me." smh.
It... like asking an engineer "Man! Do you feel like TONY STARK represents you?". It just gives a strong feeling of "Bruh, wtg are you talking about? Comicbooks? Sigh"

But at least you needed to start your investigation, asking a warrior that actually wears one instead of the ones that aren't even thinking what you're thinking about


I am both, but I haven't responded really. "Stale conversation, deserves but a bread knife" after all. I'll say this though
They're not stupid. They're making inches of progress to make the place they live "relatively safer".
You know? Franly, I think the best thing you need to do to wrap you mind around this is to consider that:
"The justice system" Does NOT EQUAL "The Law Enforcement Community" AND The "Legislative/Excutive Branch" DOES NOT EQUAL "The American Fightin' Man".

YOU think you sit and see the system is broken? Because you've watched cops or hurt locker? Or LMAO "The news"? Its a ridiculous thought.
They know the justice system is broken. Marines KNOW the senate and congress work for corporations NOT the good of the people.

IMAGINE THINKING: that the Draftee or volunteer in Vietnam shouldn't wear the "Born to Kill"/"PEACE" sign.

They just know more than you about bad people, no... about people in general, and its all practical application.
Hell some large portion of people somehow don't even believe that people are ever evil and that it can be treated.

Sometimes I think its people being daft, but assuredly you can't think your way around this past the general teen angst fear of authority. But at the end of the day?
The Military/Leo, lifting in the gym in his punisher shirt isn't making some political statement other than "I'm a bad motha- shut yo mouth!". Yet there's this malaise of cowards
on the internet trying desperately to psychoanalyze and honestly (control) that same guy when they can barely control themselves.

Tl;DR? The bulk of them are not. There are over a million us warriors wearing whatever they think looks coolest in the moment.
NOT THINKING ABOUT YOU, or funny books.
The people worried about it are doing the chicken little thing because they experience the world through their pc.

Yeah, as an old saying goes "Those wearied of war most are those who actually fight them".

Those who've seen police corruption up close and personal most? are cops.

Military guys know --- about war crimes the general public has never even heard of.

the question often is not "is the system broken?" but HOW/why. But also, what can I do to fix it?

In Punisher's case... he often kills guys the system refuses to stop. is it "right?" enh... well, is anyone in that story in the right?

[bat39]

It's pretty straightforward really. The system is corrupt, the laws (be they national or international) safeguard criminals and terrorists, so you need someone who cuts through the bullsh#t and gets the job done!

And while its easy to label this as a right-wing viewpoint, let's face it...there are plenty of left-wingers who would love it if certain kinds of criminals (or people in general) were eliminated by a Punisher-like figure. It's actually a pretty universal thing - deep down, unless you're a saint or utterly committed to pacifism as a philosophy, we all believe there are some manner of 'evil' people who need to be taken down by force.

The paradox is that the Punisher is the product of an entertainment industry that is largely left-wing (albeit in an 'Establishment' sort of way) and also of a genre that, if not outright right-wing, certainly has right-wing ideas embedded in it. I guess that's where a lot of the ideological tension surrounding the character comes from, be it on the part of fans or creators.

That said, while the Punisher is an attractive fantasy, its best that he remains a fantasy. A civilized society cannot last for long if everyone, or even a sizable chunk of people, acted like the Punisher. Batman's vigilantism, while even more of a fantasy, is a lot more compatible with a civilized society - since he aims to complement the justice system, rather than replace it.

[Doom'nGloom]

I've always wondered how many Punisher fans are also fans of Rorschach from Watchmen and vice versa.

[marhawkman]

That said, while the Punisher is an attractive fantasy, its best that he remains a fantasy. A civilized society cannot last for long if everyone, or even a sizable chunk of people, acted like the Punisher. Batman's vigilantism, while even more of a fantasy, is a lot more compatible with a civilized society - since he aims to complement the justice system, rather than replace it.

This is fully true of the Adam West Batman. He DIRECTLY assists the police.

Other versions though? enh.. the more Bat-god the story gets the worse. Let's not forget that OMAC... was Batman's fault.

[Huntsman Spider]

It's pretty straightforward really. The system is corrupt, the laws (be they national or international) safeguard criminals and terrorists, so you need someone who cuts through the bullsh#t and gets the job done!

And while its easy to label this as a right-wing viewpoint, let's face it...there are plenty of left-wingers who would love it if certain kinds of criminals (or people in general) were eliminated by a Punisher-like figure. It's actually a pretty universal thing - deep down, unless you're a saint or utterly committed to pacifism as a philosophy, we all believe there are some manner of 'evil' people who need to be taken down by force.

The paradox is that the Punisher is the product of an entertainment industry that is largely left-wing (albeit in an 'Establishment' sort of way) and also of a genre that, if not outright right-wing, certainly has right-wing ideas embedded in it. I guess that's where a lot of the ideological tension surrounding the character comes from, be it on the part of fans or creators.

That said, while the Punisher is an attractive fantasy, its best that he remains a fantasy. A civilized society cannot last for long if everyone, or even a sizable chunk of people, acted like the Punisher. Batman's vigilantism, while even more of a fantasy, is a lot more compatible with a civilized society - since he aims to complement the justice system, rather than replace it.

Valid points there.

I've always wondered how many Punisher fans are also fans of Rorschach from Watchmen and vice versa.

Funny enough, Watchmen's Rorschach was also intended by his writer, Alan Moore, as a condemnation of the fascistic subtext he saw in costumed vigilante superheroes and the logic that built up and justified them in-universe. Hell, he's more recently come out on record saying that the superhero genre's truest antecedent was the Ku Klux Klan, members of which similarly concealed their identities with hoods and masks to mete out what they saw as due and righteous justice against perceived lawlessness, only their idea of "justice against lawlessness" was terrorizing and even murdering formerly enslaved black Americans simply trying to exercise basic civil, constitutional, and human rights.

While an extremely harsh take on certain of those more problematic elements in the superhero fantasy, he does raise a point that in the context of the real world and its complexities, as opposed to what he nowadays writes off as basically a childish fantasy of how the world ought to work, vigilantes would be far more of a danger to themselves and those around them than a boon to society and/or an aid to law enforcement. In a nutshell, while an extremely cathartic fantasy of revenge against violent criminal elements and/or taking (back) control in a chaotically complicated world, the drawback of characters like the Punisher and Rorschach lies mainly in people who think that's something to emulate in real life, never mind that real people aren't nearly as discerning of who exactly "deserves to die" as the Punisher is and can be led horrifically and tragically astray by their own biases.

[marhawkman]

Funny enough, Watchmen's Rorschach was also intended by his writer, Alan Moore, as a condemnation of the fascistic subtext he saw in costumed vigilante superheroes and the logic that built up and justified them in-universe. Hell, he's more recently come out on record saying that the superhero genre's truest antecedent was the Ku Klux Klan, members of which similarly concealed their identities with hoods and masks to mete out what they saw as due and righteous justice against perceived lawlessness, only their idea of "justice against lawlessness" was terrorizing and even murdering formerly enslaved black Americans simply trying to exercise basic civil, constitutional, and human rights.

While an extremely harsh take on certain of those more problematic elements in the superhero fantasy, he does raise a point that in the context of the real world and its complexities, as opposed to what he nowadays writes off as basically a childish fantasy of how the world ought to work, vigilantes would be far more of a danger to themselves and those around them than a boon to society and/or an aid to law enforcement. In a nutshell, while an extremely cathartic fantasy of revenge against violent criminal elements and/or taking (back) control in a chaotically complicated world, the drawback of characters like the Punisher and Rorschach lies mainly in people who think that's something to emulate in real life, never mind that real people aren't nearly as discerning of who exactly "deserves to die" as the Punisher is and can be led horrifically and tragically astray by their own biases.

DCAU and the Amanda Waller/CADMUS plot NAILED this.

It's really hard for the public to TRUST "law enforcement" people who use fake names in public and have no legal jurisdiction. More so for the ACTUAL law enforcement and govt.

Adam West Batman worked because he DID actually work with the cops, and didn't oppose them. But as Waller rightfully pointed out.... there's a lot of trust that the world needs to put in the JL for the world to be cool with the JL having an orbital weapon platform capable of annihilating cities.

[InfamousBG]

Doubt.
but... its dumfounding that you'd ask them that.
You're asking the wrong question. You're asking someone who suffered through effort to achieve something, and live with it everyday if a fictional character represents them symbol
represents them. Moreover, law enforcement in real life aren't en masse like the depictions you see on tv, they're not stupid, especially with bs set up questions. Thats the type of childish
thing to not even be considered as in "Anything but to avoid this conversation this guys trying to have with me." smh.
It... like asking an engineer "Man! Do you feel like TONY STARK represents you?". It just gives a strong feeling of "Bruh, wtg are you talking about? Comicbooks? Sigh"

But at least you needed to start your investigation, asking a warrior that actually wears one instead of the ones that aren't even thinking what you're thinking about .

Bruh? Oh i better cut it out dont want to upset this one over here.

My entire family is military...bruh. Sorry I got type 1 diabetes at the age of 7. First thing I learned was militry does not allow me in. Then when I got older the cops did not like me either because I am a liability(which they are right). So instead I have worked in an emergency room for the last 25 years wearing a Punisher shirt every shift (I own 54 of them). Guess what everyone talks about with me? Yup your right bruhhhhhhhhhhhh. If that went over your head I will understand.

[Mister Mets]

He's competent.

He doesn't make mistakes.

He doesn't compromise.

They don't realize that his competence and lack of consequences are more of an artistic invention.