Why is the Punisher so appealing to the military and the police?

[bat39]

In response to the OP, I get the sense from talking to people I know who are ex armed forces or cops there’s a real feeling of hopelessness just now.

Many people entered these careers to make the world a better and safer place while putting food on their tables and quickly find out that the system fails them. You catch someone, put your life on the line and then that person is often walking freely again once they are processed by the courts. To repeat offend again. Every time I see names of murderers and serious violent crimes in the paper it’s people you knew were always going to escalate to seriously harming another. Just a matter of time.
It’s totally understandable that cops would have fantasies about taking these people off the street permanently, especially now in era where cops are feared and hated more than criminals are; most of them are people trying to thanklessly do a often dangerous job for relatively low pay.

I come from a place where there’s a lot of street violence, domestic violence, abuse and murder and most of it is committed by people who have previous and who barely serve sentences at all, let alone a sentence that fits the crime.

For various reasons there’s a lot of fucked up people out there and there’s a really low deterrent to prevent them from thinking twice about doing nasty **** to others. These are people who know the system well already and have no fear of the consequences of getting caught because the consequences are something they can deal with pretty easily when you are used to a life outside of law abiding societal norms.

Armed forces will be seeing similar on a wider scale, being deployed in dangerous countries with corrupt governments and witnessing some horrible **** that many of us will hopefully be fortunate not to be exposed to.

That and the symbol is just a great design.

This stuff is not hard to figure out though and I wish people would move away from the constant accusations of conservatism and right wing leaning, there’s a lot of fans of that character outside the US who couldn’t give a **** about American politics. And a lot of cops and armed forces who have zero interest in politics either. Twitter really has fucked the world up, probably irreparably with this bullshit.

Absolutely.

Disillusionment with the justice system and the desire for vigilante justice are pretty universal.

Though I do think that a certain form of 'liberalism' that's become prevalent in the US and across democratic countries over the past few decades may have played a role in amplifying these sentiments.

A 'liberal' society is fundamentally supposed to be a society that values individual freedom and liberty, but such a society is only possible for everyone if there is rule of law. Upholding the rule of law, and enforcing the law, thus becomes vital to the survival and functioning of a liberal society (or for any society really).

The problem arises from the belief that upholding/enforcing the law is inherently a right-wing idea or even a 'fascist' one. It arises from the idea that individuals are not responsible for their actions and that 'society' is to blame. When you take it to its extreme, it comes down the idea that 'society' is inherently evil in some way (its either racist, or unequal, or whatever) and that therefore true 'justice' involves completely ignoring the norms of society. In fact, lashing out against society and law-abiding citizens, including law enforcers, becomes something 'virtuous'.

Some of this came from a place of genuine compassion. Placing an emphasis on rehabilitation, rather than just punishment, is a laudable objective of criminal justice reform. Acknowledging the fact that there are societal factors that drive criminal behavior is only logical if one wants to address the root of the problem. On some level, it is understandable for a civilized society to want to break the cycle of violence by treating even the most heinous criminals with a modium of compassion. And of course, ensuring that they have access to all the rights they are entitled too as criminal defendants in a court of law.

But somewhere along the way, the scales have been tipped and we now have, in many parts of the world, a criminal justice system that is more focused on the needs of perpetrators than delivering justice to the victims and their loved ones. We have crimes, including violent crimes, being lightly punished, overlooked or sometimes even justified on the grounds that society is inherently discriminatory against the criminals (or rather the groups that the criminals represent) so those inequities need to be addressed by not punishing their crimes. We've entered a new paradigm where criminals are viewed as sympathetic figures, while law enforcers are viewed as monsters. And there are plenty of influential and powerful politicians, bureaucrats, businessmen and celebrities who, one way or other, endorse some of these ideas.

This in turn leads to a lot of anger at an individual and at a societal level. You see it in acts of vigilantism. You see it in political violence. And sometimes it just simmers under the surface and people consume media that reflects the way they feel about these issues, or serves as an outlet to blow off some steam. Or rally around someone, real or fictitious, who's doing what they wish they could do.

Like Punisher.

[WelcomeBackFrank]

Absolutely.

Disillusionment with the justice system and the desire for vigilante justice are pretty universal.

Though I do think that a certain form of 'liberalism' that's become prevalent in the US and across democratic countries over the past few decades may have played a role in amplifying these sentiments.

A 'liberal' society is fundamentally supposed to be a society that values individual freedom and liberty, but such a society is only possible for everyone if there is rule of law. Upholding the rule of law, and enforcing the law, thus becomes vital to the survival and functioning of a liberal society (or for any society really).

The problem arises from the belief that upholding/enforcing the law is inherently a right-wing idea or even a 'fascist' one. It arises from the idea that individuals are not responsible for their actions and that 'society' is to blame. When you take it to its extreme, it comes down the idea that 'society' is inherently evil in some way (its either racist, or unequal, or whatever) and that therefore true 'justice' involves completely ignoring the norms of society. In fact, lashing out against society and law-abiding citizens, including law enforcers, becomes something 'virtuous'.

Some of this came from a place of genuine compassion. Placing an emphasis on rehabilitation, rather than just punishment, is a laudable objective of criminal justice reform. Acknowledging the fact that there are societal factors that drive criminal behavior is only logical if one wants to address the root of the problem. On some level, it is understandable for a civilized society to want to break the cycle of violence by treating even the most heinous criminals with a modium of compassion. And of course, ensuring that they have access to all the rights they are entitled too as criminal defendants in a court of law.

But somewhere along the way, the scales have been tipped and we now have, in many parts of the world, a criminal justice system that is more focused on the needs of perpetrators than delivering justice to the victims and their loved ones. We have crimes, including violent crimes, being lightly punished, overlooked or sometimes even justified on the grounds that society is inherently discriminatory against the criminals (or rather the groups that the criminals represent) so those inequities need to be addressed by not punishing their crimes. We've entered a new paradigm where criminals are viewed as sympathetic figures, while law enforcers are viewed as monsters. And there are plenty of influential and powerful politicians, bureaucrats, businessmen and celebrities who, one way or other, endorse some of these ideas.

This in turn leads to a lot of anger at an individual and at a societal level. You see it in acts of vigilantism. You see it in political violence. And sometimes it just simmers under the surface and people consume media that reflects the way they feel about these issues, or serves as an outlet to blow off some steam. Or rally around someone, real or fictitious, who's doing what they wish they could do.

Like Punisher.

Very good post and I agree most of this comes from a specific group who don’t really live in the real world.

My day to day concerns are about keeping my kids safe and I have an increasing worry about how I’m going to do that if the people who are paid to protects us become increasingly undermined.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think bat39 and WelcomeBackFrank both raise valid points, though I also think there has to be a balance in real life of upholding the law so that justice is fairly and equally served and not letting the law be coopted as yet another tool to "punch down," as it were, on people and groups that have already been severely disenfranchised and marginalized across society. The backlash to "law and order" happened in the mid-20th century and even a few years before now because too many people came to see the law --- somewhat rightfully, but not necessarily the whole story --- as a tool wielded primarily by the powerful and privileged to enforce a societal pecking order that kept themselves on top and everyone else at the bottom. That said, the backlash to that prior backlash happened because some people saw the proverbial pendulum swinging too far in a direction that disempowered and disenfranchised them and reacted understandably poorly to that.

The problem, I think, on both sides, is that passions and anxieties can be all too easily exploited by bad actors to foment distrust and animosity that then leads to further violence, which in turn leads to further discontent and more backlashes. Of course, where I think we can all agree at this point is that the present status quo, where some people or groups are (or feel) hyper-scrutinized by the same law enforcement that (they feel) treats other people or groups with proverbial kid gloves based primarily on their tax bracket or the neighborhood where they live, is increasingly untenable for putting the lie to the idea that we live in a fair and just society where everyone is protected and valued equally. In the end, though, lashing out in violence and anger, even when that anger is or may be warranted and justified, isn't going to help anyone achieve their primary goals of protecting people and their communities from criminal violence while establishing a fairer and more just system where protection under law enforcement doesn't come at the expense of unfairly depriving some people, groups, and/or communities of their own rights to safety and liberty.

As for the Punisher's role at the center of this debate, fictional, though iconic, character he may be, the issue to me isn't so much about him being admired and extolled by members of the military and law enforcement, but again, how bad actors within the military and law enforcement, or with connections to military and law enforcement, have appropriated and even perverted his symbol and iconography as a cover to inflict violence and even death on those they see as deserving, all too often stemming more from petty prejudice and bias than any standard of lawfully or morally acceptable conduct on the part of those tasked "to protect and serve." That is where I think the real crux of the problem lies with how the Punisher as an icon and symbol has been misused, misinterpreted, and even misrepresented, the bad actors who want to exploit his popularity with law enforcement and the military to propagate and perpetuate poisonous ideas about how and to whom "law and order" should be applied, ideas that end up reinforcing unjust and unfair systems and power structures, often by violence that can cause those who have unduly suffered from it to lose faith in the law or even the concept of justice. Of course, when enough people lose faith in the law or the justice system, on either side of the ideological fence, very bad things happen, and those bad things can (and most likely will) be exploited by bad actors who want more bad things to happen for their own gain or advantage. That's the issue, in my view, that there are forces in and across society that would gladly foment all-out violent conflict for their own gain, taking advantage of rightful and understandable grievances and coopting symbols that many of us respect if not revere or hold dear to sway people to embrace and act upon the worst demons of human nature.

[ed2962]

this goes with the idea of "let the punishment fit the crime"... you aren't gonna kill someone for stealing 5$. the proper punishment is forcing the thief to repay.

Oh really?



I know, I know...Frank's been drugged here, but I couldn't resist.

[K7P5V]

^^^Yeah! Bill Mantlo just doesn't get enough love (IMHO):

[InfamousBG]

^^^Yeah! Bill Mantlo just doesn't get enough love (IMHO):

I love this. Need a bigger shot of it and hang it on my basement wall.

[ed2962]

Wait, let's be clear...the whole point of that particular Spiderman story is that Frank had gone insane. It's not the comic you want to give someone if you want to show them why Frank's a cool character. I know I brought it up, but I just thought it was funny cuz someone said Frank doesn't go after minor crimes and here's one where he tried to shot a couple for littering!

Frank's next appearance was the Steve Grant/Mike Zeck mini that explained it away as him being drugged by his enemies while he was in jail. And that comic actually when Frank became a pop culture icon. It's the mid 80's and it tapped into the pop culture action movie craze as well as real life political "tough on crime" rhetoric.

[K7P5V]

^^^Indeed. Here's proof from the 1st issue of Punisher (1986):