Anti-Heroes

[Cap808]

I'm sure this has been covered in other threads before, but with the new Kraven movie coming out, I got to thinking about how fast we as viewers, and even more importantly, the heroes in our favorite comics, accept former villains who turn over a new leaf. In real life, would we accept multiple offense murderers such as Magneto, Deadpool, Venom, and to a certain extent, the Punisher? I mean, I'm sure there most of our heroes have gone down this road at one time or another and justified their actions (or the writers have at least), and I'm all for redemption, but is there a point where someone cannot be forgiven?

Do groups like the Avengers and X-Men have to justify their questionable membership to the public?

[Huntsman Spider]

I'm sure this has been covered in other threads before, but with the new Kraven movie coming out, I got to thinking about how fast we as viewers, and even more importantly, the heroes in our favorite comics, accept former villains who turn over a new leaf. In real life, would we accept multiple offense murderers such as Magneto, Deadpool, Venom, and to a certain extent, the Punisher? I mean, I'm sure there most of our heroes have gone down this road at one time or another and justified their actions (or the writers have at least), and I'm all for redemption, but is there a point where someone cannot be forgiven?

Do groups like the Avengers and X-Men have to justify their questionable membership to the public?

Actually, a very valid point. Say what you will about the X-Men and their tendency to accept formerly villainous mutants into their ranks on the basis of mutant solidarity and the raw deal "good" and "bad" mutants alike have gotten from a human society apparently run by increasingly genocidal bigots, but I don't recall anything quite on the level of the Avengers accepting Red Hulk after he participated in an attempted coup on the United States led by the Intelligencia, a bunch of underrated and overlooked mad scientist villains who got together and made their own Hulk and She-Hulk with a combination of gamma and cosmic radiation.

[jackolover]

I'm sure this has been covered in other threads before, but with the new Kraven movie coming out, I got to thinking about how fast we as viewers, and even more importantly, the heroes in our favorite comics, accept former villains who turn over a new leaf. In real life, would we accept multiple offense murderers such as Magneto, Deadpool, Venom, and to a certain extent, the Punisher? I mean, I'm sure there most of our heroes have gone down this road at one time or another and justified their actions (or the writers have at least), and I'm all for redemption, but is there a point where someone cannot be forgiven?

Do groups like the Avengers and X-Men have to justify their questionable membership to the public?

I’d be the wrong person to ask this, as I’ve always sanctioned a supervillain truce. Your stance that supervillains cannot be incorporated into groups like the Avengers or X-Men speaks too much of reality.

In my concept of what the Marvel Universe represents, to me, it’s a madhouse in which non-super powered people exist at their peril. I don’t think you can apply the same ethics in a world ruled by superhumans, and only tolerate normal humans. The superhumans rule the roost, so in my opinion, you try to reduce the risk to normal humans by not trying to incarcerate them for every crime they have done, but make them part of the establishment, to keep them quiet, and feel inclusion. If we ever realistically tried to live in a world with the Hulk, where he gets away with damaging the armed forces everytime they encounter him, they would run out of ammunition, airforce and tanks. Let alone a world full of these threats, including Galactus. So from my point of view, keep the villains busy included, and you reduce the fallout.

[James Cameron]

I appreciate that Roger Stern touched on this in his Avengers run regarding Namor's membership and his status as a villain at the time:



Avengers #270

[Cap808]

I’d be the wrong person to ask this, as I’ve always sanctioned a supervillain truce. Your stance that supervillains cannot be incorporated into groups like the Avengers or X-Men speaks too much of reality.

In my concept of what the Marvel Universe represents, to me, it’s a madhouse in which non-super powered people exist at their peril. I don’t think you can apply the same ethics in a world ruled by superhumans, and only tolerate normal humans. The superhumans rule the roost, so in my opinion, you try to reduce the risk to normal humans by not trying to incarcerate them for every crime they have done, but make them part of the establishment, to keep them quiet, and feel inclusion. If we ever realistically tried to live in a world with the Hulk, where he gets away with damaging the armed forces everytime they encounter him, they would run out of ammunition, airforce and tanks. Let alone a world full of these threats, including Galactus. So from my point of view, keep the villains busy included, and you reduce the fallout.

I can appreciate keeping them on 'our side', but I think this is where it would get touchy, and that we would need someone with Steve Rogers' integrity 'handling' them. Otherwise, this is where we would send these people out to foreign countries to do the government's bidding. Wasn't there a storyline in Supreme Power where the government uses Redstone as their wetworks guy?

Either way, if this was a real world problem, the solutions would be just as bad as the problem.

[Cap808]

I appreciate that Roger Stern touched on this in his Avengers run regarding Namor's membership and his status as a villain at the time:



Avengers #270

Wow...this is exactly what I was envisioning. It would have been cool to hear Cap's reasoning to have Namor on the team.

[James Cameron]

Wow...this is exactly what I was envisioning. It would have been cool to hear Cap's reasoning to have Namor on the team.

Cap is actually the person who invited Namor onto the team, and was his number one advocate.






This is just one aspect of Stern's run that makes up why it is considered the definitive Avengers run. Great acknowledgement of character history and past relationships. of course there are other examples in other titles of what you're describing - Magneto joining the X-Men for one- that being one of the main reasons X-Factor was formed in the first place.

[James Cameron]

Some more relevant scans re: Magneto / character reactions:

FF#286



What Sue is referencing:

[Cap808]

Cap is actually the person who invited Namor onto the team, and was his number one advocate.






This is just one aspect of Stern's run that makes up why it is considered the definitive Avengers run. Great acknowledgement of character history and past relationships. of course there are other examples in other titles of what you're describing - Magneto joining the X-Men for one- that being one of the main reasons X-Factor was formed in the first place.

Welp, if I HAD to justify a former villain being on a super team, Cap's endorsement would be good enough for me.

[James Cameron]

Welp, if I HAD to justify a former villain being on a super team, Cap's endorsement would be good enough for me.

Agreed. It definitely gets rocky with Magneto though. I think it's good for these conflicts to be written whenever a villain or anti-hero is going through some sort of redemption or teaming up with the heroes; it's important to highlight how the superhero community wouldn't just universally accept something like that outside of the respective teams and allies associated with that villain/anti-hero.

The heroes take responsibility for their own villains. On occasion the FF have protected Doom and Galactus from other heroes. Spider-Man has defended his own villains. The X-Men are all about it especially right now. And the Avengers of course were at one point mostly comprised of former villains. It all depends on the context of the story, but it isn't right to put a villainous character in with the heroes without at least some of the heroes getting upset or uncomfortable. And the reaction of the general public seems more important, especially today with real life villains in powerful positions.

[Cap808]

Agreed. It definitely gets rocky with Magneto though. I think it's good for these conflicts to be written whenever a villain or anti-hero is going through some sort of redemption or teaming up with the heroes; it's important to highlight how the superhero community wouldn't just universally accept something like that outside of the respective teams and allies associated with that villain/anti-hero.

The heroes take responsibility for their own villains. On occasion the FF have protected Doom and Galactus from other heroes. Spider-Man has defended his own villains. The X-Men are all about it especially right now. And the Avengers of course were at one point mostly comprised of former villains. It all depends on the context of the story, but it isn't right to put a villainous character in with the heroes without at least some of the heroes getting upset or uncomfortable. And the reaction of the general public seems more important, especially today with real life villains in powerful positions.

BINGO! We can go on and on with this, and there will always be new examples, but I think we're in agreement. There needs to be some sort of acknowledgement of wrongdoing and trepidation moving forward by the heroes in order to gain any kind of acceptance from the general public in this kind of scenario.

[jwatson]

Depends on the story. like for instance punisher and whats happening now in the x-line. who wouldn't be all over it if punisher decided to protect the island in madipoor that was all for mutants and he see how far he is willing to go to help these people that are human and mutant being persecuted for existing or base choices they made not because krakoa was a power but because it was the right thing to do. And seeing how far he would go to protect that and what that says about him in the grander scale of his legacy. i don't think anti heros are the problem i think when people don't take into account that self depreciation isn't what makes someone an anti hero and they become the face of that. to me a good anti hero is someone fighting for something or someone everyone thinks is awful, terrible, the worst, but on some level there is a true right in what their doing or a sense of it. it can be hard to capture.

[jackolover]

I can appreciate keeping them on 'our side', but I think this is where it would get touchy, and that we would need someone with Steve Rogers' integrity 'handling' them. Otherwise, this is where we would send these people out to foreign countries to do the government's bidding. Wasn't there a storyline in Supreme Power where the government uses Redstone as their wetworks guy?

Either way, if this was a real world problem, the solutions would be just as bad as the problem.

Certainly putting the Marvel world in the real world would present more problems and that’s why I think the Marvel world handles things a lot differently. You cannot intimidate people like Thor or the Juggernaut who are immortals, or even teams like the FF and the Avengers, and you certainly can’t deal with the X-Men with real world tactics. You have to accomodate them, or you run into Doomsday scenarios. That’s why I think the wise tactic is to institute the supervillains into the system. After all, the Marvel world has instituted the superheroes into the system.

[Cap808]

Certainly putting the Marvel world in the real world would present more problems and that’s why I think the Marvel world handles things a lot differently. You cannot intimidate people like Thor or the Juggernaut who are immortals, or even teams like the FF and the Avengers, and you certainly can’t deal with the X-Men with real world tactics. You have to accomodate them, or you run into Doomsday scenarios. That’s why I think the wise tactic is to institute the supervillains into the system. After all, the Marvel world has instituted the superheroes into the system.

Very well said.

I'm flip-flopping all over the place with this topic.

In the 616 universe I would want my heroes to be altruistic enough, smart enough, and have the right resources to not have to compromise with these villains.

Ultimately, however, the phrase, '...keep your enemies closer', might be the best plan in any universe.

[Agent Z]

Actually, a very valid point. Say what you will about the X-Men and their tendency to accept formerly villainous mutants into their ranks on the basis of mutant solidarity and the raw deal "good" and "bad" mutants alike have gotten from a human society apparently run by increasingly genocidal bigots, but I don't recall anything quite on the level of the Avengers accepting Red Hulk after he participated in an attempted coup on the United States led by the Intelligencia, a bunch of underrated and overlooked mad scientist villains who got together and made their own Hulk and She-Hulk with a combination of gamma and cosmic radiation.

In the Krakoan Era alone, the X-Men have accepted Apocalypse, Exodus, Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike and Mr. Sinister. Deathstrike has worked with anti-mutant racists and Sinister is a Nazi eugenicist.