Rambling on GL placement in pre-post-Flashpoint continuity

[RonG]

I was re-reading Johns' seminal run on GL (Rebirth onwards) and also revisiting various discussions on the current DC Universe
(is the New 52 onwards a separate universe from pre-flashpoint? Did Rebirth restore the universe or just add to the New 52/post-flashpoint one?, etc).

Looking at the last leg of the Johns run (New 52 series in 2011 till the end of the run in 2013), it seems alsmost impossible to resolve the Johns run, with its dependance on previous DC continuity, and the other New 52 era GL stories (specifically in Justice League, but also later in Venditti's run where Hal met Parallax).

So, I came up with two 'headcanon' explanations:

1. The Johns run is not a part of the New 52 and takes place in the pre-flashpoint timeline - other than hal's slightly teaked costume, I don't remember anything changing *due to flashpoint*. Also the 'futures' presented at the very end of GL#20 could be the futures of the pre-flashpoint GLs, and starting from the Venditti run (as well as the other Lantern titles), we are in the New 52 timeline where the Johns run happened, but with the flashpoint differences (shorter span, events happening but not.. fully), etc.
   
   
2. The Johns run happens (for the readers, of course) after the changes made in Rebirth, so with the added past continuity returned - this is a little tricky, as the New 52/Rebirth/modern timeline is not the same as pre-flashpoint (but running parallel to it, if I understand the current multiverse/omniverse situation) - so the run basically happened in both timelines, but the reader experiences it according to the 'timeline du jour'

What do you guys think? Does this make sense?

Did anyone give this issue much thought? if so - how did you resolve this to yourself (if you did)?

Appreciate your thoughts

[HsssH]

In my head it exists in its own universe. Kinda how Moore's Swamp Thing started before Crisis and ended after it without any obvious changes to the story.

[j9ac9k]

What issues are you having trouble resolving? And what about Hal meeting Parallax in Venditti's run? Are you assuming we all know what continuity problems you're talking about because I want to answer, but your post is kinda vague.

[RonG]

What issues are you having trouble resolving? And what about Hal meeting Parallax in Venditti's run? Are you assuming we all know what continuity problems you're talking about because I want to answer, but your post is kinda vague.

It's not specific issues in Johns' run, rather than adjusting it with the overall New 52:

1. In New 52 it is said that "now" is 5 years after heroes first appeared in the DC universe (which is equal to the first arc of Johns' and Lee's Justice league)

2. The post-flshpoint portion of Johns' run is contuining the pre-flashpoint portion basically uninterrupted, which means that all GL history 'happened', including Emerald Twilight, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Sinestro War, Blackest Night etc.
Keep in mind that the Anti Monitor first appears in New 52 near thee end of Johns' Justice League run (Darkseid war?), which contradicts his appearances in Infinite Crisis, Sinestro War, Blackest Night...

3. And specifically - in GL#50, post-flashpoint Hal meets Zero Hour era Parallax, indicating that these are 2 distinct universes (Post-COIE/Zero Hour/Infinite Crisis vs New 52/Rebirth/Infinite Frontier) rather than points on the same (though revised) timeline

[HsssH]

Parallax was from Convergence if I'm not mistaken.

[j9ac9k]

Yeah, short answer is: it was all a huge mess.(like Batman having gone through all his Robins in that same 5 year period) Best not to think about it.

[RonG]

Parallax was from Convergence if I'm not mistaken.

Convergence had characters from various points in the timeline(s).. Parallax was from Zero Hour
(and for some reason displayed the 'fear monster' face, which he would get only years later, in GL Rebirth..)

[RonG]

Yeah, short answer is: it was all a huge mess.(like Batman having gone through all his Robins in that same 5 year period) Best not to think about it.

And if you do try to establish a solution?

If we're talking about Batman, I have the same theory for Morrison's run (being part of pre-flashpoint), though that would be even harder to resolve, due to the 'sequal run' in Tomasi's Batman & Robin (ending with Damian's return) having ties both to Morrison's run and to Snyder's very central New 52 run.

I didn't recall such ties from Johns' GL (post flashpoint) run - that's why it was easier for me to differntiate it from the then-current New 52 status quo/universe.

[j9ac9k]

Convergence had characters from various points in the timeline(s).. Parallax was from Zero Hour
(and for some reason displayed the 'fear monster' face, which he would get only years later, in GL Rebirth..)

Specifically, the post Zero-Hour storyline "Parallax View" (GL #64) which is when he was on earth to be trapped in the Metropolis bubble.

[RonG]

What issues are you having trouble resolving? And what about Hal meeting Parallax in Venditti's run? Are you assuming we all know what continuity problems you're talking about because I want to answer, but your post is kinda vague.

Yeah, short answer is: it was all a huge mess.(like Batman having gone through all his Robins in that same 5 year period) Best not to think about it.

Specifically, the post Zero-Hour storyline "Parallax View" (GL #64) which is when he was on earth to be trapped in the Metropolis bubble.

So, now that you know what problems I was trying to resolve, your view is that it's a mess (and can't be resolved)?

[D.Z]

All NU52 was the same universe but altered then later several reality alterations happened later. Rebirth and more that I don't wanna list anymore.

Also history was compressed in those 5 years during NU52. Not the case anymore.

For NU52 era GL, you have to omit visually in your mind the characters that weren't and couldn't be around.

Should separate reality from timelines. But it all doesn't matter anymore, the current DC timeline is modified pre flashpoint but bunch of other stuff added in or altered.

Still Earth 0. But now you have to visualize mentally how different those old NU 52 stories would be in 2023 thanks to all ther other changes to the timeline.

Honestly its best to move on.

[RonG]

All NU52 was the same universe but altered then later several reality alterations happened later. Rebirth and more that I don't wanna list anymore.

Also history was compressed in those 5 years during NU52. Not the case anymore.

For NU52 era GL, you have to omit visually in your mind the characters that weren't and couldn't be around.

Should separate reality from timelines. But it all doesn't matter anymore, the current DC timeline is modified pre flashpoint but bunch of other stuff added in or altered.

Still Earth 0. But now you have to visualize mentally how different those old NU 52 stories would be in 2023 thanks to all ther other changes to the timeline.

Honestly its best to move on.

I get what you're saying, of course - it can be just an intellectual excercise

Also, as for which universe the current one is, I was under the impression that the current universe is the one starting with New 52, but with 'additional history' (returned after Doomsday Clock) mixed in.
So, not identical to pre-flashpoint but very similar and revitalized.

The pre-flashpoint universe should still exist in the Omniverse (with its own multiverse?), and most events happened in both, but they're not one and the same.

Do you think \ understand otherwise?

[D.Z]

I get what you're saying, of course - it can be just an intellectual excercise

Also, as for which universe the current one is, I was under the impression that the current universe is the one starting with New 52, but with 'additional history' (returned after Doomsday Clock) mixed in.
So, not identical to pre-flashpoint but very similar and revitalized.

The pre-flashpoint universe should still exist in the Omniverse (with its own multiverse?), and most events happened in both, but they're not one and the same.

Do you think \ understand otherwise?

Earth 0 was the same Earth until Pandora and Dr. Manhattan changed the timeline.

Lot of pre flashpoint history was eventually restored but not exactly the same. Even changed again.

No, there are only two Multiverses, one normal and one dark. No Pre Flashpoint Earth exists.

Stories that don't and no longer fit in anywhere go into hypertime.

Reality and time are two seperate things.

[Stanlos]

I was re-reading Johns' seminal run on GL (Rebirth onwards) and also revisiting various discussions on the current DC Universe
(is the New 52 onwards a separate universe from pre-flashpoint? Did Rebirth restore the universe or just add to the New 52/post-flashpoint one?, etc).

Looking at the last leg of the Johns run (New 52 series in 2011 till the end of the run in 2013), it seems alsmost impossible to resolve the Johns run, with its dependance on previous DC continuity, and the other New 52 era GL stories (specifically in Justice League, but also later in Venditti's run where Hal met Parallax).

So, I came up with two 'headcanon' explanations:

1. The Johns run is not a part of the New 52 and takes place in the pre-flashpoint timeline - other than hal's slightly teaked costume, I don't remember anything changing *due to flashpoint*. Also the 'futures' presented at the very end of GL#20 could be the futures of the pre-flashpoint GLs, and starting from the Venditti run (as well as the other Lantern titles), we are in the New 52 timeline where the Johns run happened, but with the flashpoint differences (shorter span, events happening but not.. fully), etc.
   
   
2. The Johns run happens (for the readers, of course) after the changes made in Rebirth, so with the added past continuity returned - this is a little tricky, as the New 52/Rebirth/modern timeline is not the same as pre-flashpoint (but running parallel to it, if I understand the current multiverse/omniverse situation) - so the run basically happened in both timelines, but the reader experiences it according to the 'timeline du jour'

What do you guys think? Does this make sense?

Did anyone give this issue much thought? if so - how did you resolve this to yourself (if you did)?

Appreciate your thoughts

Just chuck it.

[bat39]

Never gave much thought to this, mainly because I admittedly haven't read much of Johns' GL run, either Pre or Post Flashpoint. But I understand the issue - its the same one the Batman franchise faced after the New 52 with the Robins. 4 GL's in 5 years!

In GL's case I suppose it works a little better than it does with the Robins because they aren't kid sidekicks but members of an intergalactic police force who could be recruited fairly rapidly one after the other.

Hal could have been recruited 6 years ago (around the same time Superman and Batman started out). Guy and John could have been recruited 5 years ago. And Kyle around 2 years ago. It's far from ideal, but makes a hell of a lot more sense that Damien being 11 while Bruce became Batman only 6 years ago

As far as the nuances of continuity went, I dunno. Did the New 52 run refer to stuff like Emerald Twilight? When Hal met Zero Hour era Parallax did he recall being Parallax himself?

The destruction of Coast City is something that could still theoretically have happened in the New 52 I suppose.

In terms of the larger mechanics of these reboots, I think the Doomsday Clock explanation works best. Everytime there's some kind of reboot or reset, the history of Earth 0 changes but a 'backup' of the previous iteration is created somewhere out there in the Multiverse (or rather the Omniverse I suppose). That's pretty much in line with Convergence too...its where the Zero Hour era Parallax came from. And how Pre Flashpoint Superman and Lois (and Jon) first ended up on Earth 0 before they were folded in during Superman Reborn, restoring a great deal of Pre Flashpoint history in the process. In this case, the 'backup' was reinserted into/merged with the altered version, creating a new continuity that was a composite of the old and new versions.