Sometimes I feel it bothers Marvel that they don’t have Superman

[Thor-Ul]

That was confusing.

Marvel loves having legacy heroes.... but they don't name her Miss America? They dress her in some jeans and a jacket and give her an origin story that is growing to Donna Troy (look it up) levels of confusion.

Her first suit had a visual reference to the original Marvel's Miss America... than it was erased later.
But at least she has some style.
But what really damaged the character was her first own solo series. I can overcome visual styles I dislike if the story is good enoguh, but the writing, oh, the writing... Oh god. No character deserves that.

[Digifiend]

I always felt that Marvel split Superman into two characters - Thor and Captain America.

I can see that. Thor has the power and Cap has the boy scout attitude.

Oddly enough, I thought at one point way back, Marvel was creating it's own junior Justice League trinity with the New Warriors. Hear me out as I dodge your tomatoes:

Superman = Nova
Wonder Woman = Nita
Batman = Night Thrasher

Nova is Green Lantern - Rich and Hal literally have identical origin stories (alien predecessor dies, passes on their powers) - and during the recent Heroes Reborn event, the other Nova was even cast as the sidekick to the Green Lantern analogue Doctor Spectrum. Namorita has the same powers as her cousin Namor, who Aquaman is an expy of. That makes Nita the New Warriors version of Aquagirl (her direct counterpart would be Tula, the pre-Crisis Aquagirl). Night Thrasher definitely is a Batman knock-off though.

Nice. I thought they were a Marvel spin on the New Teen Titans.

True, in that Marvel was trying to capitalise on New Titans' success. It had been running for nine years (and dropped the Teen) by the time NW launched. It worked: New Titans was axed before New Warriors was.

[JudicatorPrime]

But he is more like a Green lantern? I mean there always a person chosen to be a different Captain Universe.

Same goes for the Protector of the Universe mantle, although things kind of fell off after Quasar had it as far as I know.

I wonder if Marvel ever considered doing something like that with Hyperion, Sentry, etc.? Might as well borrow the entire Shazam thing and have a roaming Elder of the Universe (the Grandmaster, maybe) identify a new person to bestow the powers of Hyperion. The catch would be sometimes they give it to a good person and sometimes they give it to a villain as befits the needs of the cosmos at that particular moment in time.

[protege]

Same goes for the Protector of the Universe mantle, although things kind of fell off after Quasar had it as far as I know.

I wonder if Marvel ever considered doing something like that with Hyperion, Sentry, etc.? Might as well borrow the entire Shazam thing and have a roaming Elder of the Universe (the Grandmaster, maybe) identify a new person to bestow the powers of Hyperion. The catch would be sometimes they give it to a good person and sometimes they give it to a villain as befits the needs of the cosmos at that particular moment in time.

hopefully not the current version of captain what’s his name. but marvel has captain universe for that.

[Anthony W]

Her first suit had a visual reference to the original Marvel's Miss America... than it was erased later.
But at least she has some style.
But what really damaged the character was her first own solo series. I can overcome visual styles I dislike if the story is good enoguh, but the writing, oh, the writing... Oh god. No character deserves that.

What's fascinating is that most of the venom is reserved for her 2020 series America Chavez: Made In The USA by Kalinda Vazquez and Carlos Gomez.

That. Series. Was. The. Good. One.

The art was immaculate! The writing was great! Yet for reasons that escape me that is the one that really irks the character's fanbase.

[Agent Z]

And I agree, Marvel is struggling to have their Wonder Woman. They have put a lot of effort to stablish Carol Danvers as its Wonder Woman, mainly because MCU sinergy, but I don't know if that had worked that well. I mean, the new movie seems more like a team movie and her name isn't even in the title.
Curiously and returning to the openig post, it seems like Carol Danvers, with all the retcons made to her origin, has been transformed in the Superman of Marvel, more than their Wonder Woman.

Struggling with comic sales and having a hit debut movie is definitely something she has in common with Wonder Woman.

Frankly, I think people are blowing the sequel's title way out of proportion.

[Nomads1]

I always thought Thor was Marvel's equivalent of Superman.

Peace

[Anthony W]

Struggling with comic sales and having a hit debut movie is definitely something she has in common with Wonder Woman.

Frankly, I think people are blowing the sequel's title way out of proportion.

Maybe, but Wonder Woman is recognized by more people the world over by far and that will remain the same decades after people forget about her movie. Captain Marvel can't say that.

[Thor-Ul]

What's fascinating is that most of the venom is reserved for her 2020 series America Chavez: Made In The USA by Kalinda Vazquez and Carlos Gomez.

That. Series. Was. The. Good. One.

The art was immaculate! The writing was great! Yet for reasons that escape me that is the one that really irks the character's fanbase.

I agree. It is far a better book, in text and pencils, but commit two big crimes for certain sectors:

1. Depowers America: her translation powers are not that effective now, suppously and

2. Retcons her origin: even if make her relationships with a human family more down to earth, she is not from other universe but she is from 616, but subject to experiments to cure a disase. And most important, here we know the family who care for here, which was something than was pending.

Also, certain sector of the fans didn't like to see her powers not being from some uber alternate reality magic destiny origin, but in the end beign something like Miracleman, where all her origin is revealed to be a fiction. And worse, explained than the origin she was always bragging around was nothing more than an infantile dellusion. The point is her relationship with her mothers (that don't change) is still the same: her mothers still sacrifice themselves to save her, even if now they are genious scientist and no uber scientists of the "utopic parallel".

Honestly, it was a better done series, but the retcons are something than several readers don't like. But the can't deny than it was important to know if she had a family beyond being great just... because. And if this series retcons out the horrible 2017 series, the better.

EDIT: Also, it has been than the retcon had an staying power, as in the last appearances of America, Defenders: Beyond, Ewing kept the retcon (America confirmed the whole Utopia as a lie) and as Ewing is a more respected voice in Marvel,well, many people is still irked.

[JudicatorPrime]

I always thought Thor was Marvel's equivalent of Superman.

Peace

I never got that same impression. Strength aside -- which in the early years of Thor wasn't anywhere near Superman's level -- the only things they had in common was a cape and the color palette of their costumes.

Oh sure, later we would find out that the Asgardians were possibly an advanced alien race like the Kryptonians and not the real gods from the myths, but subsequent writers have not consistently adhered to that premise. Some have written them like they are, indeed, divine beings, including one of the writers who decided that Sentry would die, and his spirit would naturally find itself in Asgard, even though he's not Asgardian. So much for science with all that divine and/or supernatural filling your sails.

That said, maybe Stan did envision Thor as a character loosely based on Superman? Happy to hear more backstory on that...because I don't see it.

[jackolover]

I don’t know. Stan Lee wrote an African American Superman once, and that didn’t fit my idea of a Marvel Superman. The best Superman African American was Hancock. I thought that was great. But he’d always be under the stigma that hampered Blue Marvel when he first appeared. He was hounded out of the super business, by bigotry.

I’d like to see a Captain Marvel rendered Superman at Marvel. Or even a Nova Prime type Superman policeman of the Universe. I always liked the idea of a Nova Prime coming to Earth and telling it like it is, like he did to Iron Man in Civil War. That was supreme in the middle of Civil War. It just showed how insignificant the conflict between superheroes was compared to the bigger picture going on in the universe.

[Agent Z]

Maybe, but Wonder Woman is recognized by more people the world over by far and that will remain the same decades after people forget about her movie. Captain Marvel can't say that.

Wonder Woman is more recognized because she's been consistently published since her debut and has had more appearances in adaptations. Iron Man got a movie that launched the Marvel Cinematic Universe with less going for him than Wonder Woman and about as much as Carol.

[Agent Z]

What's fascinating is that most of the venom is reserved for her 2020 series America Chavez: Made In The USA by Kalinda Vazquez and Carlos Gomez.

That. Series. Was. The. Good. One.

The art was immaculate! The writing was great! Yet for reasons that escape me that is the one that really irks the character's fanbase.

That series is the on that started the Donna Troy confusion regarding her origins. There's a reason it's ignored in adaptations.

[Anthony W]

IÂ’d like to see a Captain Marvel rendered Superman at Marvel. Or even a Nova Prime type Superman policeman of the Universe. I always liked the idea of a Nova Prime coming to Earth and telling it like it is, like he did to Iron Man in Civil War. That was supreme in the middle of Civil War. It just showed how insignificant the conflict between superheroes was compared to the bigger picture going on in the universe.

Nova laying into Iron Man about Civil War was second only to Thor slapping around Iron Man because of Civil War. As for a Captain Marvel take at Marvel Prime was a great character but the resides in the Ultraverse.

That is the difference between Marvel and DC. When DC attempts a Marvel character they do it with sincerity they really do try to make it work. The Age Of Heroes books were all very sincere takes and Sideways was a very fun take on Spider-Man. When Marvel attempts a DC character they do it with the intention of proving that Marvel is better and that the DC character is silly or at least that is what it feels like.

[Nomads1]

That is the difference between Marvel and DC. When DC attempts a Marvel character they do it with sincerity they really do try to make it work. The Age Of Heroes books were all very sincere takes and Sideways was a very fun take on Spider-Man. When Marvel attempts a DC character they do it with the intention of proving that Marvel is better and that the DC character is silly or at least that is what it feels like.

Not that I disagree, but General Glory says Hi! As does Ernie!

Peace