Sometimes I feel it bothers Marvel that they don’t have Superman

[JudicatorPrime]

I think is more for the retrocotinuity exercise than demands his existence. Same as Sentry.

And yet how many books has Sentry been in, including his own limited series? Now do Blue Marvel. It's not quite the same, even though everyone tries to convince us that it is. More writers and fans gravitate towards Sentry, as where Blue Marvel gets the "Do we have another Hyperion that we can use here?" treatment.

And just to be clear, I don't think retconning is the issue. No more than time-displaced characters are an issue, if the story is properly constructed.

[Nomads1]

If you were to 'almagamate' (see what I did there?) Captain America and Thor, you'd get Superman.

I agree.

Peace

[Digifiend]

What's fascinating is that most of the venom is reserved for her 2020 series America Chavez: Made In The USA by Kalinda Vazquez and Carlos Gomez.

That. Series. Was. The. Good. One.

The art was immaculate! The writing was great! Yet for reasons that escape me that is the one that really irks the character's fanbase.

It changed her origin. Sure it didn't have the previous one's stupid dialogue (holy menstruation!) but people hated the Utopian Parallel being revealed to be phoney.

[Anthony W]

Wasn't aware of him. Thanks.



The Heroes of Angor were part of an unofficial crossover between Marvel and DC in the 70's, and they were supposed to be versions of the Avengers (or spoofs, as they call them), while Marvel gave us the Squadron Sinister (and later the Squadron Supreme). Later, Giffen and DeMatties brought them back in JLI, and then, in JLE, gave us the Extremists, who came from the same world and were supposed to be versions of the top Marvel villains (Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sabretooth, Dr. Octopus, Dormumu...)
The Maximums were supposed to be the Avengers in a world created by Mr. Myxyplk (yeah, I know that must be spelled wrong) in Loeb and McGuiness' Batman and Superman.
And the Red Lion was Cristopher Priest's version of the Black Panther in a short run he did in JLA, a few years ago (and that I have to admit that I never read, but I knew of it).

Peace

This thread is so informative. Yeah, the only one I knew was the Red Lion. Red Lion is a fascinating yet fun take on what T'Challa is like if there is no such thing as a mythical Wakanda or Vibranium and heart shaped herbs. He is a dictator but there is just enough there where you can see Priest's Black Panther foundation.

You know what is really funny? Even lacking all the stuff T'Challa has I still think he beats any Wakandan not named T'Challa and takes over Wakanda if Marvel ever crosses over with DC again. Which is why T'Challa better be sitting on the throne if Marvel ever crosses over with DC.

[Thor-Ul]

And yet how many books has Sentry been in, including his own limited series? Now do Blue Marvel. It's not quite the same, even though everyone tries to convince us that it is. More writers and fans gravitate towards Sentry, as where Blue Marvel gets the "Do we have another Hyperion that we can use here?" treatment.

And just to be clear, I don't think retconning is the issue. No more than time-displaced characters are an issue, if the story is properly constructed.

Good argument. But I was thinking than in both cases (Sentry and Blue Marvel) are created by retrocontinuity with an excuse of why a person with the powers of Superman and who has existed since many years ago in the Marvel universe didn't not interfere with the events at all. And the no-intervention politic is the first anti-Superman attitute you gave to your character. At least in the case of the Sentry is more justified than in the case of Blue Marvel, in my opinion. Also the Sentry is like to see a timebomb ready to explote at any minute and there is certain twisted desire to see that happening. Blue Marvel is essentially a Superman who failed and not very writers are willing to explore that angle with him.

[Gaastra]

JLA / Avengers, by, IIRC, Busiek and Perez, was amazing for a crossover between the two companies. Both groups were handled respectfully, I thought, which was a nice juggling act, as well as a few cute snarky comments about the differences between the two worlds. (Superman checking out 616 Earth with his telescopic vision. "This world seems to be smaller than our world. There's not even a Metropolis!" poking fun at how much of Marvel is based around real world cities like New York, while every DC hero seems to have their own special comic-book city like Metropolis, Gotham, Coast City, Central City, Star City, etc.)

A great mini series and incredible last issue with every member popping in and out. Only downside is dumb parts that lower its score down like superman stopping thors hammer with his hand smug when it should have hurt his hand with magic, them saying hal and barry are the real flash and gl over wally and klye when they are both replacements, infinity gems don't work in other realities when they worked just fine in the ultraverse, flash speed force don't work in marvel when it worked just fine for flash in quasar, and cap acting like a jerk in half of the series. Avengers gang attacking superman over thor was awful also as thor was beat before in the avengers comics.

The trouble with the "worlds are different page" is they did a two page spread on how bad the marvel world is but no two page on dc. One line of "they have a museum." and the have merch something the avengers have themselves (they have shows and toys so that makes no sense) over looking at the crime ridden batmans city or darkseids world. It felt more dc over marvel. Then the story threw it for a loop when the avengers had the contest won till cap threw the fight with batman! As powerful as the jla was they still would have lost! Story on the other side had great moments like wonder woman thinking Hercules is her version, all the captain marvels in one fight, hawkeye trying to boomerang flash, lesser members like retro and doorman and batman telling cap batman would lose if they fought were great moments.

[ed2962]

Wasn't aware of him. Thanks.



The Heroes of Angor were part of an unofficial crossover between Marvel and DC in the 70's, and they were supposed to be versions of the Avengers (or spoofs, as they call them), while Marvel gave us the Squadron Sinister (and later the Squadron Supreme). Later, Giffen and DeMatties brought them back in JLI, and then, in JLE, gave us the Extremists, who came from the same world and were supposed to be versions of the top Marvel villains (Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sabretooth, Dr. Octopus, Dormumu...)
The Maximums were supposed to be the Avengers in a world created by Mr. Myxyplk (yeah, I know that must be spelled wrong) in Loeb and McGuiness' Batman and Superman.
And the Red Lion was Cristopher Priest's version of the Black Panther in a short run he did in JLA, a few years ago (and that I have to admit that I never read, but I knew of it).

Peace

Not only that, but they were a spoof of The Ulimates/Ultimate Avengers version of the characters hence the more militaristic look.


Oh, and I can't believe I didn't mention The Americans who showed up in Mark Millar's the Authority run. They were basically an evil version of the Avengers ( complete with an evil Jack Kirby!)

[ed2962]

The only character I have heard of on that list is the Red Lion and he is not a hero. Are the others in this list meant to be heroes or are they just villains from the start using familiar powers and origins.

Nomads1 already did a pretty good breakdown, but they were a mix of "heroes" and "villains". I was just bringing them up to show that DC has a history of spoofing Marvel characters that's as long as Marvel's spoof of DC characters.

[dkrook]

Good argument. But I was thinking than in both cases (Sentry and Blue Marvel) are created by retrocontinuity with an excuse of why a person with the powers of Superman and who has existed since many years ago in the Marvel universe didn't not interfere with the events at all. And the no-intervention politic is the first anti-Superman attitute you gave to your character. At least in the case of the Sentry is more justified than in the case of Blue Marvel, in my opinion. Also the Sentry is like to see a timebomb ready to explote at any minute and there is certain twisted desire to see that happening. Blue Marvel is essentially a Superman who failed and not very writers are willing to explore that angle with him.

That's part of the nuances of writing a Blue Marvel. I don't see Adam as a failed Superman so much as a narrative of American society's continued failed to reconcile it's racial issues to the detriment of America's safety. We have a very stable, altruistic man that wants to serve unselfishly for the good of his society. Him being a failure would only be through a contemporary black lense. We would look at him as a simp for letting white power structure stop him from being a hero when he clearly couldn't be stopped by it. Handling those themes along with incorporating traditional hero stuff is why Marvel can't make him work as a Superman. They just don't have skilled enough writers.

[protege]

And yet how many books has Sentry been in, including his own limited series? Now do Blue Marvel. It's not quite the same, even though everyone tries to convince us that it is. More writers and fans gravitate towards Sentry, as where Blue Marvel gets the "Do we have another Hyperion that we can use here?" treatment.

And just to be clear, I don't think retconning is the issue. No more than time-displaced characters are an issue, if the story is properly constructed.

this is the problem that i have with the squadron supreme in general; being justice league analogs, very seldom do we get to see them as individuals. hyperion was the muscle bound superman type, and the latest nighthawk was starting to interest me once he became an avenger for 30 seconds. the whizzer isn’t needed with quicksilver around, and i’m really hoping someone fleshes out doctor spectrum someday.

[Will Evans]

And yet how many books has Sentry been in, including his own limited series? Now do Blue Marvel. It's not quite the same, even though everyone tries to convince us that it is. More writers and fans gravitate towards Sentry, as where Blue Marvel gets the "Do we have another Hyperion that we can use here?" treatment.

And just to be clear, I don't think retconning is the issue. No more than time-displaced characters are an issue, if the story is properly constructed.

That’s because Sentry can be used as a crazed adversary or a MacGuffin, like his dead body was in the Kingpin’s NYC Thunderbolts title, or as a Dark Avenger who’s manipulated.
Those things don’t apply to Blue Marvel.

[JudicatorPrime]

Blue Marvel is essentially a Superman who failed and not very writers are willing to explore that angle with him.

You expertly point out the dilemma with Adam's appeal. It's not that Blue Marvel failed, but rather everyone perceives that he failed, which ultimately means that the writing failed him.

Al Ewing did show that Blue Marvel remained active, as he and his son (Kevin) were combatting the evil Dr. Skorpion (Yay, a Z list villain!) at the same time that Galactus made his first appearance on Earth. An ill-conceived and weak effort, in my honest opinion. If you're going to establish that Adam defied the Executive Order, yet not have him participate in any of Earth's major events, then you're just setting said character up to fail in the eyes of readers.

Given everything else that Adam has to overcome as a character, showing him as inconsequential is a kiss of death. Some might argue that Adam's Void analog, the Anti-Man, proved more significant under Ewing than Adam did. A shame, really. Lots of great potential dying on a vine. That was Adam's story in 1963, but it shouldn't be his story now. Yet here we are. And I doubt Marvel will do anything to change the fans' perceptions.

[JudicatorPrime]

That’s because Sentry can be used as a crazed adversary or a MacGuffin, like his dead body was in the Kingpin’s NYC Thunderbolts title, or as a Dark Avenger who’s manipulated.
Those things don’t apply to Blue Marvel.

Blue Marvel could easily be written as all of the above. He is a stable matter-antimatter meld, which makes him a walking MacGuffin, even in this fictional universe built on quasi-science. He could be the answer to the Sentry and Knull all at once. He could have crossed Thanos and Doom, or shouldered Thor against the Beyonders. It always comes back to how he's written. Writers seem to have vision aplenty for everyone else, except Adam. That's the real problem.

But enough talk of Adam. Let's get back to discussing the other Superman pastiches.

[jackolover]

I admittedly liked Hancock as a Superman clone. Far more than I like Blue Marvel, Sunshine Superman, Icon, etc., if we're talking purely about characterization and backstory. Wish Marvel owned the rights. That's not to say that Hancock wasn't problematic, including the fact that his natural mate -- in the form of a White woman no less -- was his Kryptonite. (But it's the gorgeous Charlize Theron and, really, what cisgender heterosexual male wouldn't happily be weak to her element, if the Fates deemed him so lucky???)

Blue Marvel's problem is that no one will ever be curious or nostalgic about his beginnings the way that people are curious and nostalgic about Kal-El's origins. Fewer still will see the tragedy in it, even though in the real world we're still faced with overcoming those same challenges.

Yes to both your points

[jackolover]

Nova laying into Iron Man about Civil War was second only to Thor slapping around Iron Man because of Civil War. As for a Captain Marvel take at Marvel Prime was a great character but the resides in the Ultraverse.

That is the difference between Marvel and DC. When DC attempts a Marvel character they do it with sincerity they really do try to make it work. The Age Of Heroes books were all very sincere takes and Sideways was a very fun take on Spider-Man. When Marvel attempts a DC character they do it with the intention of proving that Marvel is better and that the DC character is silly or at least that is what it feels like.

I was more thinking Captain Mar-Vell of the Kree Empire.