X-Men #25 - Review/Spoilers

[lefthanded]

Let's say we just agree that it made sense for her to react that way, Duggan chose to put her in that scenario. We have murderKitty because he wanted it and not for any other reason.

Kitty 'breaking bad' is a great storytelling idea, but any impact of her sudden acts of violence is undercut by .... solicits and other comics.

Her channeling rage over Jean and Bobby's murder is undercut by the knowledge that they will be alive shortly. So the reader already feels that this superhero resorting to murder, is not entirely justified. Imagine if the Punisher's origin story was undercut by solicits months beforehand that the Punisher's family will be starring in a new solo series.

Furthermore, you have an Iceman issue debuting the same week as this reveal. If you thought the killing of Ms. Marvel but announcing her new status quo in a few weeks was bad, here we don't even have time to reflect on Kitty becoming the Punisher over Bobby's death before we are already off on an adventure with a joking, flirty Iceman.

[Agent Grayson]

Written by someone who understands the character? She would incapacitate the enemies, hide them and arrange for Emma to wipe their memories of her passing through the gate.

But now she's a dubious moral character. Very interesting, but not.

To me, that’s kind of the point of this storyline. She’s been driven to act out of character but in a way that’s tied to some of her roots - her training with Ogun. She’ll no doubt eventually find her way back but right now, she’s a broken version of herself. She still feels like the same character to me though, which I can’t say about her run in Marauders.

I’m wondering if Ogun’s influence over Kitty has something to do with her issues with the gates. I’m sure Claremont’s X-Treme X-Men mini was originally touted as having an impact in the present day and that would be the most logical link.

[cranger]

They could have had the bad guys a bit more competent I mean the base should have just been on mercury surrounded by a bunch of Sentinels with a bunch of tech that is futuristic and blocks most powers

Well they could not chuck it in because it is using the most futuristic future tech that no one here knows about in Dyson Engines which are basically star powered engines but that obviously goes over everyones head because Hickman does not realize that sometimes how much he is the smartest person in the room. A base on Mercury with specific anti-mutant tech, nanites and suppressor fields would have been easier to believe if rather unimaginative.

[Agent Grayson]

Kitty 'breaking bad' is a great storytelling idea, but any impact of her sudden acts of violence is undercut by .... solicits and other comics.

Her channeling rage over Jean and Bobby's murder is undercut by the knowledge that they will be alive shortly. So the reader already feels that this superhero resorting to murder, is not entirely justified. Imagine if the Punisher's origin story was undercut by solicits months beforehand that the Punisher's family will be starring in a new solo series.

Furthermore, you have an Iceman issue debuting the same week as this reveal. We don't even have time to reflect on Kitty becoming the Punisher over Bobby's death before we are already off on an adventure with a joking, flirty Iceman.

The reader often knows more than the character. It doesn’t have to undermine the story. Would you dislike rereading the Dark Phoenix Saga now because you know Jean comes back?

[ARkadelphia]

When you have Doctor Stasis telling random soldiers they don't have permission to speak with him, I don't get the sense that this organization is gonna do regular headcounts to make sure their grunts are all accounted for.


It is pretty weird though, how Emma has to wear an inhibitor because otherwise it doesn't take Orchis long to detect her, and yet Kitty can just waltz around with her X-gene undetected and use her powers at will. Hopefully they will reveal that she is also an Inhuman hybrid.

Yaaassss!!! Red Inhuman Queen!!!!

[Devaishwarya]

The reader often knows more than the character. It doesn’t have to undermine the story. Would you dislike rereading the Dark Phoenix Saga now because you know Jean comes back?

And it wasn't just Jean's and Bobby's murder. It was Dazzler's and Jubilee's and Prodigy's and Multiple Man's and Frenzy's...It was everything that Orchis did that night. Her response and considering her option of letting them go knowing there was one mutant still using the gates was off the table, was fully understandable and justifiable.

[ExodusCloak]

Well they could not chuck it in because it is using the most futuristic future tech that no one here knows about in Dyson Engines which are basically star powered engines but that obviously goes over everyones head because Hickman does not realize that sometimes how much he is the smartest person in the room. A base on Mercury with specific anti-mutant tech, nanites and suppressor fields would have been easier to believe if rather unimaginative.

There were plenty of other ways to chuck that thing into the sun between the Xorn brothers, Magneto and Exodus or teleporters
Regardless I think the same logic Claremont applied to the ANDX and Magneto needs to apply to Orchis. The villains need to be a proportional threat to the heroes. Magneto powers were increased to match the current mutants at that time. The same for Orchis. Messiah Complex and second coming were basically a better written Orchis.

A nation of 250,000 mutants is a significantly bigger threat then 198 mutants on Utopia

[gambit2051]

What Kate is or isn't, and just what can detect Kamala's (unpowered) X-Gene I will leave to be explained later or not at all, but it seems like Orchis is relying on patrolling Sentinels to scan for mutants not some globe sweeping scanning method like Cerebro or something. Even if they have something long range it might only ping a general area and require eyes on the sight to confirm. As long as people avoid the patrols they can get around. Emma needs to be in public spaces so she has to be able to conceal herself. Kate can get around 'in the shadows' and even Rasputin can take indirect routes if needed to be on the surface.

There are still other people like the Unity Squad who must be publicly known but avoiding capture somehow but that will likely be explained.

That said, I doubt they do not know there are mutants running around otherwise, Astonishing Iceman suggests they know they are hiding and are trying to lure them out.

Not criticism, did you read Astonishing Iceman? because they are using tech that is able to scan and target people that used drugs that gave them temp Mutant Powers years ago...the X-Editors Office sounds like a mess based on how much it appears they are talking to each other.

Let's say we just agree that it made sense for her to react that way, Duggan chose to put her in that scenario. We have murderKitty because he wanted it and not for any other reason.

EXACTLY. Characters in a story are 100% controlled by the Writer and Editors. We literally need to Ignore ALL previous history of a Character once a Writer chooses to make that Character Act against type. This is not a conversation based on the Characters History...but the Writers.

Not picking on this comment because at this point it is hard to argue against it, but this is basically the reply to every question about why the mutants don't do whatever someone can wonder about.

See my Above response heh

Legit did not realize all 3 responses are to the same person until the 3rd one...and noticed it was the same person as 2....and then i noticed it was the same as 1 lol

[lefthanded]

The reader often knows more than the character. It doesn’t have to undermine the story. Would you dislike rereading the Dark Phoenix Saga now because you know Jean comes back?

That is not quite the same.

How Jean's choices/plot lands on the reader, are not affected by 'spoilers'.
How Kitty's choices/plot lands on the reader, are affected by 'spoilers.

Jean "broke bad" because cosmic mumbo jumbo + Mastermind manipulation. She chooses to die in the end rather than succumb to powers outside her control.

The reader's knowledge of her return, doesn't affect anything aside from how the ending lands. But even then, it still works, because the point is "her choice" of death rather than the point being "death drives the plot."


That is the nuance.

[Havok83]

Kitty 'breaking bad' is a great storytelling idea, but any impact of her sudden acts of violence is undercut by .... solicits and other comics.

Her channeling rage over Jean and Bobby's murder is undercut by the knowledge that they will be alive shortly. So the reader already feels that this superhero resorting to murder, is not entirely justified. Imagine if the Punisher's origin story was undercut by solicits months beforehand that the Punisher's family will be starring in a new solo series.

Furthermore, you have an Iceman issue debuting the same week as this reveal. If you thought the killing of Ms. Marvel but announcing her new status quo in a few weeks was bad, here we don't even have time to reflect on Kitty becoming the Punisher over Bobby's death before we are already off on an adventure with a joking, flirty Iceman.

maybe not to you but Kitty's actions are 100% justified. I dont see why Jean and Bobby's eventual return even matters. Aside from them she just saw the bulk of the entire new X-men team slaughtered, not to mention unnamed mutants and humans and this all happened within minutes. She was caught alone on Orchis turf and i dont think she had a choice but to kill everyone bc they most certainly would have killed her had she let them. Plus they had valuable information (she could use the gates) that they would use against her had she let that get out. There was alot of trauma here that was justified and I think Duggan did a good job of making the reader understand the mindset that Kitty was in to prompt this change. It was earned.

Bobby being alive now is irrelevant as thats not info that Kitty had at the time. Even if she learns that, so what? The bulk of the mutants are missing and/or presumed dead, Orchis is in control and they are living in one of the most oppressive eras. Playing fair and that "kill no man" law really put them at a disadvantage and I think Kitty realizes that in order to beat Orchis, she has to play by their rules and thats to be ruthless

[JB]

maybe not to you but Kitty's actions are 100% justified. I dont see why Jean and Bobby's eventual return even matters. Aside from them she just saw the bulk of the entire new X-men team slaughtered, not to mention unnamed mutants and humans and this all happened within minutes. She was caught alone on Orchis turf and i dont think she had a choice but to kill everyone bc they most certainly would have killed her had she let them. Plus they had valuable information (she could use the gates) that they would use against her had she let that get out. There was alot of trauma here that was justified and I think Duggan did a good job of making the reader understand the mindset that Kitty was in to prompt this change. It was earned.

Bobby being alive now is irrelevant as thats not info that Kitty had at the time. Even if she learns that, so what? The bulk of the mutants are missing and/or presumed dead, Orchis is in control and they are leaving in one of the most oppressive eras. Playing fair and that "kill no man" law really put them at a disadvantage and I think Kitty realizes that in order to beat Orchis, she has to play by their rules and thats to be ruthless

Perfectly said.

[Rift]

Plus, they tried to be nice and it failed. Charles tried to be peaceful and it backfired spectacularly. Anything short of killing is irresponsible and should not be an option, and anything more is self-defense.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Perfectly said.

Plus, they tried to be nice and it failed. Charles tried to be peaceful and it backfired spectacularly. Anything short of killing is irresponsible and should not be an option, and anything more is self-defense.

Hard disagree! Killing a surrendering soldier with his hands up is pretty much the definition of a war crime. There's no exception for 'he saw me be able to use the gates'. There isn't even an exception for the Nazi m*****f***ers who drove millions of Jews into the gas chambers. Every single one of them that surrendered was entitled to Due Process under the laws of war. Full stop!

I honestly find it so interesting how relative morality becomes based on how a person identifies with the perpetrator vs. the victim. Not just in comics, of course. In real life, too.

But for me, I want my heroes to be heroic. I want my Batman to never kill, no matter how evil the villain is or what he's done. I want Charles' dream of peaceful coexistence and X-Rules against killing no matter how hard or unlikely it is. Because that's where these characters show their nobility and how they are better and more human than the bigots who unreasonably hate them. Because if everything is relative and they're all the same killers, than the bigots are right to fear them and their powers. When Orchis calls Kitty a terrorist and a murderer after this, they are factually correct.

[lefthanded]

maybe not to you but Kitty's actions are 100% justified. I dont see why Jean and Bobby's eventual return even matters. Aside from them she just saw the bulk of the entire new X-men team slaughtered, not to mention unnamed mutants and humans and this all happened within minutes. She was caught alone on Orchis turf and i dont think she had a choice but to kill everyone bc they most certainly would have killed her had she let them. Plus they had valuable information (she could use the gates) that they would use against her had she let that get out. There was alot of trauma here that was justified and I think Duggan did a good job of making the reader understand the mindset that Kitty was in to prompt this change. It was earned.

Bobby being alive now is irrelevant as thats not info that Kitty had at the time. Even if she learns that, so what? The bulk of the mutants are missing and/or presumed dead, Orchis is in control and they are living in one of the most oppressive eras. Playing fair and that "kill no man" law really put them at a disadvantage and I think Kitty realizes that in order to beat Orchis, she has to play by their rules and thats to be ruthless

I am not disputing that Kitty's actions aren't justified based on what she experienced. It goes from A to B to C, so readers can certainly connect each and every development to each other.

What I am disputing is that to the reader, the impact itself is diminished.
Watching the Sixth Sense with solicits spoiling the twist is less impactful than watching the Sixth Sense without any knowledge of the twist.
The movie itself still works, and everything that happens to Bruce Willis' character still works. But the impact is diminished.

Of course, I agree that everyone is different, so to some people it doesn't matter, but to others it does.

[Pantherflash]

Hard disagree! Killing a surrendering soldier with his hands up is pretty much the definition of a war crime.

That's a terrorist.