X-Men #25 - Review/Spoilers

[cranger]

Was it gratuitous though bc I felt it was warranted here? Krakoa in general has been playing too nice with Orchis with their "Kill No Man" law. Kitty literally just witnessed Jean and Bobby murdered among a bunch of other unnamed mutants and humans. There is just a handful of X-men left out in the world and she was alone on Orchis' turf. I dont think she had a choice but to kill them bc they would have come after her and they had valuable information about her and the gates that could be used against her. The violence was to showcase the trauma that she was going through and she wasnt the fun loving Kitty with the jokes anymore. Things got serious and she had to adjust and play by their rules bc being fair landed them in this position

I can buy some decision to have her kill them 'to keep the secret' and whatever, or at least that someone thinks that makes sense, but Duggan spends 8 pages on Kitty killing people (not counting the lead up or aftermath). It could be said that he was more interested in writing a bunch of 'cool' ways someone with phasing powers could kill a bunch of goons than dealing with trauma.

I'm at a loss as to how Kitty thinks killing all those soldiers will keep the secret that she can use the gates.

I doubt they're going to look at all the bodies mutilated by mass manipulation and say 'Yeah, this has got to be Wolverine'.

The book makes it sounds like she hid them in the roof even though the art with it looks like they are still all around. But even if they know it was her, or someone with powers, all they know is someone was there and not how they got there or left.

[yogaflame]

It was gratuitous. Duggan is not alone in this tactic. Modern storytellers in general love to delight audiences with the shock and awe of violence. Invincible, The Boys, Game of Throne and House of the Dragon are a few examples. A pinch here or there is one thing, but if pages after pages of body horror is what you have to offer, with Plot Induced Stupidity the only thing putting the characters into these scenarios in the first place, then yes, it is gratuitous. You all can enjoy that if you wish, but don't try to intellectualize it, or pull out the mental gymnastics routine to validate it as the only storytelling solution. It's lowest common denominator stuff. Hickman certainly had his flaws, but Duggan is nowhere near as capable a storyteller. It truly is the Fall of X.

[Uncanny X-Man]

I was really impressed with this issue. Once again, Duggan shows great mastery pulling many different strings and quickly changing focus while also driving the story forward and while still delivering excellent moments for Emma, Everett and of course Kate. The pages where she kills the Orchis team one by one are a gut-punch and are perfectly executed also thanks to Stefano Caselli's superb art.

Between the Hellfire Gala, X-Men #25 and Astonishing Iceman #1 I'm really all in on Fall of X, the books haven't felt this exciting and dangerous in a long time and I actually like the idea of having a bunch of minis carrying the event - hopefully there will be a very specific story structure with satisfactory end points carrying real impact as well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What bodies?

The ones she blew up, phased into the ground, etc. I don't think she could hide that many, that quickly

When you have Doctor Stasis telling random soldiers they don't have permission to speak with him, I don't get the sense that this organization is gonna do regular headcounts to make sure their grunts are all accounted for.

I'm sure they'll notice an entire team missing from the day of their strike

[gambit2051]

The ones she blew up, phased into the ground, etc. I don't think she could hide that many, that quickly

And I kind of doubt Kitty spent the time to Clean Up the Aftermath...and those Bodies are going to start to Stink FAST...How Much Room does Duggan believe there is inside a Roof???? lol..it took 1 week for the illusion around Duggan's work to come crashing down around me. lol

[Micabe]

Cause Orchis messed with Krakoa tech. Krakoa yech was holding them in stasis. So whatever they did for the gates seems to have shut down the tech around the vault.

If the technology of the Vault was negated then that would mean Children of the Vault are currently normal humans, right?

[JB]

I was really impressed with this issue. Once again, Duggan shows great mastery pulling many different strings and quickly changing focus while also driving the story forward and while still delivering excellent moments for Emma, Everett and of course Kate. The pages where she kills the Orchis team one by one are a gut-punch and are perfectly executed also thanks to Stefano Caselli's superb art.

Between the Hellfire Gala, X-Men #25 and Astonishing Iceman #1 I'm really all in on Fall of X, the books haven't felt this exciting and dangerous in a long time and I actually like the idea of having a bunch of minis carrying the event - hopefully there will be a very specific story structure with satisfactory end points carrying real impact as well.

Hear, hear!

The ones she blew up, phased into the ground, etc. I don't think she could hide that many, that quickly



I'm sure they'll notice an entire team missing from the day of their strike

I do agree they'll notice the group is missing. But they won't be finding their bodies anytime soon because she phased them into the roof. They may find small pieces of evidence but they won't be able to figure out what exactly happened and who did it.

[gambit2051]

Can I just say....They did the "X Weeks Later" troupe and Established a New Status Quo off-panel where Orchis is now akin to HAMMER and being a Mutant is now Illegal. Period....all bc of an UNSEEN Massacre of Human Guests at the Hellfire Gala where 250k Mutants disappeared or were Forcefully Exported.......................................... ...Ultimate Universe did it better, lolololol. Joking, bc they played a very similar song as this. Like....Hickman basically destroyed D.C. in the Ultimate Universe *cough* Captain Krakoa bombing D.C. *cough*.....we even just recently had Hydra takeover America in the 616.......the main universe was not the place for these "Villains win in excess" Events...these were What If stories, mini-series, or another Universe....Stories like this (and how Vegas was "destroyed" in that event whose name i literally can not remember right now lol and Widow died etc) do not work in the Main Universe bc having such a disturbing STATUS QUO is untenable for a Monthly Comic Universe...i mean......how many times have we seen Heroes, Teens, Mutants, etc... Outlawed and Special Extra Judicial Forces have been allowed to act however they wanted in just the past 15 years in Marvel Comics? We would actually have to stop and take time to Count to be sure. We can not just point to HAMMER, or Outlawed, or Utopia, or ONE, or Hydra, or SHIELD (post-Civil War), or or or or or....things like Arrako were exciting bc they were actually pretty different and new. The Idea of Arrako is still paying off, and Apocalypse has a new name and has actually been allowed to Grow as a Character in an Interesting way. He was stuck for 2+ decades as such a one note character, and now En Sabah Nur has some depth to him...

There are plenty of interesting stories to tell about an Active Mutant Government that encourages living among humans and allows them to apply to join Krakoa....and they were actually trying to do exactly that. It is just people like to claim a Safe Haven for the Oppressed founded by the Oppressed and Defended by the Oppressed is promoting Segregation....rather than Refusing to allow your people to continue to be abused. I will never see eye to eye with people that claimed the Mutants were acting too big, too proud, too loud, or how Krakoa promoted Segregation vs Protection......the people that yell about the Oppressed segregating themselves...so much gd history for them to go through about the Oppressed LITERALLY Fleeing Persecution to Found Nations.....*cough* so MANY AMERICAN Colonies *cough*.........Protection is not Segregation. Work on your perspective...sorry about that, but I really just figured out how to properly explain that one and it has been eating at me for awhile.

well this just happened, such a huge smile on my face right now. This is just for me, if you actually read it, cool...but all my posts are bc I feel like sharing where a thought went....so....just to be clear...the people that claim that Krakoa was Racist or Segregation....i waited years for this to fully form....You are Upset that the Members of an Oppressed Group Offered Protection and Safe Haven to the Other Members of that Oppressed Group (regardless of their past)...but did not Order that all Mutants join them...it was an Offer. You are Upset that the Oppressed Offered Protection to the Oppressed....you may not be one, but that is how an Oppressor and their Propaganda would feel as well....Upset that they are being allowed and actually choosing to Protect Themselves. This bs argument I have seen pop up all over this thread for years has always rubbed me the wrong way and I ignored it bc I did not link the proper concepts together...until today. Flow is awesome. The Oppressed Offering Protection to the Oppressed is NOT Segregation....That is Protection from the Oppressors...

Cyclops being held Captive.....like the X-Men did not have Friends in place as the 1st responders to the Treehouse....oh, and it is weeks later, but Cyclops is still in his Costume and not Stock Garb for the Prison he is in....decisions like that...acting like it is Weeks later....I just can't with ignoring such basic questions and it makes me wonder how much the Artist and Writer were really talking to each other. Bc the Artist appears to have thought the story was taking place later that day or only a few days at the most....and the Writer changes their mind....

I am just enjoying watching the Fire at this point...and wondering when Logs will stop being thrown on it lololololol

update..."captain krakoa" only bombed the Senate Intel Committee meeting.......not a session of Congress or Meeting of the Leadership....so....make what you will of that and the U.S. Government allowing a Private Military to Police America........in this version of Earth that Duggan and the X-Editors have decided upon...(Member, Orchis is apparently helping Worldwide...not just Merica) my eyes roll so hard at this that I am starting to have fun with it.

[marhawkman]

That was an awesome Kitty focused issue! Dunno how Kitty fans feel about her in the Krakoa age but I absolutely love her character now. Such a far cry from the insufferable teen under Claremont's pen.

And it goes back to the "Is Kitty a Neo?" thing.

[Hulkout42]

Cause Orchis messed with Krakoa tech. Krakoa yech was holding them in stasis. So whatever they did for the gates seems to have shut down the tech around the vault.

What i should have said is what the plan is for them, they were made to be world enders hence the cage if you will Forge built to stop them, unless the goal is that Darwin makes it so they attack Orchis because outside of that possibility i see no reason to bring them back unless it is to use them against Orchis and then they willingly go back into their cage or something.

[Hulkout42]

When you have Doctor Stasis telling random soldiers they don't have permission to speak with him, I don't get the sense that this organization is gonna do regular headcounts to make sure their grunts are all accounted for.


It is pretty weird though, how Emma has to wear an inhibitor because otherwise it doesn't take Orchis long to detect her, and yet Kitty can just waltz around with her X-gene undetected and use her powers at will. Hopefully they will reveal that she is also an Inhuman hybrid.

I doubt it will be the only plot hole we find over the course of this thing.

[Hulkout42]

Can I just say....They did the "X Weeks Later" troupe and Established a New Status Quo off-panel where Orchis is now akin to HAMMER and being a Mutant is now Illegal. Period....all bc of an UNSEEN Massacre of Human Guests at the Hellfire Gala where 250k Mutants disappeared or were Forcefully Exported.......................................... ...Ultimate Universe did it better, lolololol. Joking, bc they played a very similar song as this. Like....Hickman basically destroyed D.C. in the Ultimate Universe *cough* Captain Krakoa bombing D.C. *cough*.....we even just recently had Hydra takeover America in the 616.......the main universe was not the place for these "Villains win in excess" Events...these were What If stories, mini-series, or another Universe....Stories like this (and how Vegas was "destroyed" in that event whose name i literally can not remember right now lol and Widow died etc) do not work in the Main Universe bc having such a disturbing STATUS QUO is untenable for a Monthly Comic Universe...i mean......how many times have we seen Heroes, Teens, Mutants, etc... Outlawed and Special Extra Judicial Forces have been allowed to act however they wanted in just the past 15 years in Marvel Comics? We would actually have to stop and take time to Count to be sure. We can not just point to HAMMER, or Outlawed, or Utopia, or ONE, or Hydra, or SHIELD (post-Civil War), or or or or or....things like Arrako were exciting bc they were actually pretty different and new. The Idea of Arrako is still paying off, and Apocalypse has a new name and has actually been allowed to Grow as a Character in an Interesting way. He was stuck for 2+ decades as such a one note character, and now En Sabah Nur has some depth to him...

There are plenty of interesting stories to tell about an Active Mutant Government that encourages living among humans and allows them to apply to join Krakoa....and they were actually trying to do exactly that. It is just people like to claim a Safe Haven for the Oppressed founded by the Oppressed and Defended by the Oppressed is promoting Segregation....rather than Refusing to allow your people to continue to be abused. I will never see eye to eye with people that claimed the Mutants were acting too big, too proud, too loud, or how Krakoa promoted Segregation vs Protection......the people that yell about the Oppressed segregating themselves...so much gd history for them to go through about the Oppressed LITERALLY Fleeing Persecution to Found Nations.....*cough* so MANY AMERICAN Colonies *cough*.........Protection is not Segregation. Work on your perspective...sorry about that, but I really just figured out how to properly explain that one and it has been eating at me for awhile.

well this just happened, such a huge smile on my face right now. This is just for me, if you actually read it, cool...but all my posts are bc I feel like sharing where a thought went....so....just to be clear...the people that claim that Krakoa was Racist or Segregation....i waited years for this to fully form....You are Upset that the Members of an Oppressed Group Offered Protection and Safe Haven to the Other Members of that Oppressed Group (regardless of their past)...but did not Order that all Mutants join them...it was an Offer. You are Upset that the Oppressed Offered Protection to the Oppressed....you may not be one, but that is how an Oppressor and their Propaganda would feel as well....Upset that they are being allowed and actually choosing to Protect Themselves. This bs argument I have seen pop up all over this thread for years has always rubbed me the wrong way and I ignored it bc I did not link the proper concepts together...until today. Flow is awesome. The Oppressed Offering Protection to the Oppressed is NOT Segregation....That is Protection from the Oppressors...

Cyclops being held Captive.....like the X-Men did not have Friends in place as the 1st responders to the Treehouse....oh, and it is weeks later, but Cyclops is still in his Costume and not Stock Garb for the Prison he is in....decisions like that...acting like it is Weeks later....I just can't with ignoring such basic questions and it makes me wonder how much the Artist and Writer were really talking to each other. Bc the Artist appears to have thought the story was taking place later that day or only a few days at the most....and the Writer changes their mind....

I am just enjoying watching the Fire at this point...and wondering when Logs will stop being thrown on it lololololol

update..."captain krakoa" only bombed the Senate Intel Committee meeting.......not a session of Congress or Meeting of the Leadership....so....make what you will of that and the U.S. Government allowing a Private Military to Police America........in this version of Earth that Duggan and the X-Editors have decided upon...(Member, Orchis is apparently helping Worldwide...not just Merica) my eyes roll so hard at this that I am starting to have fun with it.

...Sounds like you are having the time of your life, eh?

[Digifiend]

Overall, I enjoyed this issue. Best one of the whole run IMO. I think it is going to be interesting seeing the X-Men cut off from or unable to rely on their greatest leaders(Xavier, Cyclops, Storm, and Jean). Kate was amazing this issue and I much prefer this ninja identity crisis over her pirate one, ha ha. I'm looking forward to her interactions with Ms. Marvel during Fall of X. I liked Synch stepping up too. I hope Shadowkat and Synch end up linking with the Dark X-Men later on(especially Gambit of course )

Only thing I didn't like was the scene with Ms. Marvel and Frost. Frost removing her parents' memories was messed up and not sweet at all to me. That is the exact kind of thing the fans and people in-universe give Xavier hell over, but I guess it is okay with everyone here because it was Frost doing it(sorry I just find it annoying and hypocritical when every telepath but Xavier is given a pass for this kind of stuff). This was not even self defense or for the greater good. This was just taking away part of their life and their memories without permission just because she could and because it made Kamala's situation more convenient. I thought it was messed up and wrong the first time this happened to her parents, but at least Kamala didn't know it was going to happen and didn't ask for it. Here she just let it happen and even seemed to endorse it.

Kamala was scared, figuring her death had outed her secret identity (correctly it seems, as Emma wouldn't have needed to mindwipe them otherwise). In Fallen Friend though, they only thought she was missing. Did they realise the truth when Peter told them "Kamala was my hero?" Why would he speak in past tense if she's alive, and why would he call her a hero? Because of course he knows she is (she died saving Mary Jane Watson's life). His words might have put a light bulb on her parents heads' - "Oh Allah, she's missing because she was Ms. Marvel!"

[numberthirty]

One other thing that I found myself wondering about...

(Recent "Quiet Council" Spoilers...)

spoilers:

So, Krakoa stashed Doug for safe keeping. Was that actually the island? If it was, is Doug still actually safe?

end of spoilers

[Will Evans]

One other thing that I found myself wondering about...

(Recent "Quiet Council" Spoilers...)

spoilers:

So, Krakoa stashed Doug for safe keeping. Was that actually the island? If it was, is Doug still actually safe?

end of spoilers

Not for long. Xavier is there too but it seems Orchis will start sending their Wolverine-Sentinels there.