Are the "mob" villains still useful?

[The Frog Bros]

They also provide an opportunity to showcase investigative reporting. But yeah, a big(ish) mob war style story in Metropolis would be a cool way to make it feel a little more grandiose. A well written modern story of back door shenanigans, backstabbing and intrigue not unlike the Godfather would be cool. Personally, I thought the Invisible Mafia was enjoyable and kind of getting there. One of the things I did like from Bendis.

[JBatmanFan05]

Mob villains are still true to and thus useful for Superman comics. I wish more writers, particularly the big writers, did more such stories. I give so much credit to Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman actually for really showcasing genre appreciation for all the types of Superman stories you can and should do, Golden and Silver. When I was young, I don't think I ever really understood why I loved Lois & Clark so much, now I know why....so much was like the Fleischer shorts I grew up watching before then.

The Fleischer/Famous toons, Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, George Reeves, Morrison's All-Star Superman, Chris Reeve films...stuff I'd especially recommend for all Superman writers to be familiar with to understand the character.

[Vakanai]

I mean, is it filler if it actually serves a purpose, though?

Filler does serve a purpose - treading water in between anything that actually "matters" - here I don't mean matters as in just big events no slice of life stuff, love slice of life, but matters as in the writers are clearly just filling space and don't really care about the issue or whatever because books need to be sold at such and such date.

Sure, those two are big cosmic villains. Intergang, the 100, the Invisible Mafia - what they should be used for is fleshing out Metropolis and the average Metropolitan. In the world of the DCU, what drives people to crimes? How do they commit them with Superman around? What’s it like to be poor in the City of Tomorrow? How does the average stiff get the means to be a threat to Superman? These are all questions worth asking and could easily provide stories. I myself would love to see a “Gang War” storyline in Metropolis, but it requires building up the gangs to be legit threats and doing worldbuilding to establish what the underworld in Metropolis actually looks like.

I agree, they should be used for stories like that and a gang war story could be amazing, but are they being used for such stories? Are they likely to be used that way ever given what most DC writers given Superman want to write? Seems like no writer who has ever worked on Superman or is likely up for consideration to write him in the future are interested in writing stories like that.

"Filler" originally had a really specific meaning - arcs that allow anime based on manga to tread water, while the comic progresses, so that the show doesn't risk overtaking the comic in the main plot. In my opinion, the term "Filler" used beyond that has become pretty painfully vague, like "episodes where no Big Moments happen" for example. I remember Steven Universe got accused of having a lot of filler, and like... no, it's got no filler at all. What it has, is a strong focus on slice-of-life episodes with focus on character progression, and not as much focus on the Big Damn Story Arc.

Disagree - language changes, words evolve, and filler means more than just episodes of anime made to slow down story so the manga can catch up. And I'm clarifying - I'm not talking about slice of life stories where the writer loves slice of life stuff and it's treated well and interesting, but slice of life where the writer for whatever reason can't write the story they really want (usually they don't have the issues or go ahead for that story) and is just making issues to fill in otherwise blank space. There is a difference, and you can't say that never happens can you?

In rejecting that broader sense of what constitutes "Filler", I kind of reject the idea that "Filler" is even possible for Superman.

And I reject your rejection.

So, getting back to the question, "can normal mobsters still have a role in Superman narratives? can they be compelling villains?" I would have to answer with a pretty enthusiastic "Yes, they can"... BUT for that to work, requires a willingness for writers to recognize that smaller-scale Superman stories can be every bit as compelling. Not every adventure can, or should, feel like a blockbuster!

So what you're saying is:
1. They can be compelling, but can never be a "blockbuster" story, not ever,
2. You need a writer willing to write more compelling but not a blockbuster story.

While I do want more smaller scale more personal/intimate Superman stories, I have to disagree that they can't be used in a bigger way if needed/desired, just gotta work on it. As for the second point, do writers who fit #2 even still exist for Superman?

There was a time when Prankster and Toyman where his two main villains y'know?

There was also a time where to be relevant writers didn't ask "How can I make Toyman more disturbing, unhinged, creepy, and dangerous?" Simpler times. Still disgusted by the pedophile child killer of the animated film Superman Doomsday.

They also provide an opportunity to showcase investigative reporting. But yeah, a big(ish) mob war style story in Metropolis would be a cool way to make it feel a little more grandiose. A well written modern story of back door shenanigans, backstabbing and intrigue not unlike the Godfather would be cool. Personally, I thought the Invisible Mafia was enjoyable and kind of getting there. One of the things I did like from Bendis.

This is the sort of thing I want - more Clark as investigative journalist doing stuff he can't/won't as Superman, more pseudo-detective work to give Bruce a run for his unlimited money and helping expose the truth and "save" people in ways that requires more than pummeling the bad guy, all while maybe leading up to the mother and father of all gang wars. But, will that ever happen or are we too locked into the big events and save the world stories and big super fights as too much the default Supes' story that this sort of thing will even be greenlit by the powers that be? Can Superman even be allowed such a story anymore, and are there any writers who'll want to tell it in the first place?


The biggest thing to happen to Bruno in decades was CW's Superman & Lois, not the books. Is that telling?

[Will Evans]

“This looks like a job for…..Gangbuster!!”

[Mistah K88]

I mean yeah... organized crime isn't just something you can punch out. Plus, it gives Lois and the Daily Planet something to do (I mean what the hell are they going to investigate on Zod or Brainiac?) If anything, the thought that Superman should only be dealing with "big bads" is something that will get organized crime to thrive if the cards are played right.

[Vakanai]

I mean yeah... organized crime isn't just something you can punch out. Plus, it gives Lois and the Daily Planet something to do (I mean what the hell are they going to investigate on Zod or Brainiac?) If anything, the thought that Superman should only be dealing with "big bads" is something that will get organized crime to thrive if the cards are played right.

Technically you said it gives Lois and the DP something to do instead of Superman?

[Frontier]

Filler does serve a purpose - treading water in between anything that actually "matters" - here I don't mean matters as in just big events no slice of life stuff, love slice of life, but matters as in the writers are clearly just filling space and don't really care about the issue or whatever because books need to be sold at such and such date.

I guess it really just depends on how the writer sees it. Is there a point to doing a Parasite or Livewire story before you get to the next "event?" You can't keep perpetually doing Big Bad after Big Bad stories and if they wanted to do something with Intergang I'm going to assume they wanted to do something with Intergang.

The biggest thing to happen to Bruno in decades was CW's Superman & Lois, not the books. Is that telling?

But you kind of see what people are thinking of when they see the value in Bruno's character and what it brings to the mythos in how they used him in S&L.

[Johnny Thunders!]

When Luke Cage was on Netflix, it reminded me of Golden Age Superman. I think there is still room for those stories.

[Vakanai]

I guess it really just depends on how the writer sees it. Is there a point to doing a Parasite or Livewire story before you get to the next "event?" You can't keep perpetually doing Big Bad after Big Bad stories and if they wanted to do something with Intergang I'm going to assume they wanted to do something with Intergang.

But you kind of see what people are thinking of when they see the value in Bruno's character and what it brings to the mythos in how they used him in S&L.

Parasite and Livewire aren't in the same boat. The mobs/gangs, while much more powerful in the firearms department than say anything in Gotham because they're dealing with Superman, are still far more street level than the likes of Parasite and Livewire. In power scales if Zod and Brainiac are As then Parasite and Livewire are Bs, lesser villains then them might be Cs, and the villains we're discussing are Ds. At least seems that way at any rate.


I'm going to let you know - when I started this thread I was hoping people would repudiate my question with some examples from the comics since I haven't read much and I might learn of some decent stories. Two pages in without this happening has spoken more on how poorly these guys must be utilized in the last few decades than anything else.

[marhawkman]

Well, as I said before.... I don't think blockbuster stories are good to have in large numbers. They're bad world-building. It's like having a house made entirely of timbers and foundation blocks. You have a building, but it's.... not very livable.

[Vakanai]

Well, as I said before.... I don't think blockbuster stories are good to have in large numbers. They're bad world-building. It's like having a house made entirely of timbers and foundation blocks. You have a building, but it's.... not very livable.

I agree - but there's a difference between "not every story should be a blockbuster" and "these villains just can't be blockbuster". Although we can quibble over the definition of "blockbuster" - it's mostly street level and the city/world is not in danger, but I'd consider Smashes the Klan a blockbuster.

[marhawkman]

Parasite and Livewire aren't in the same boat. The mobs/gangs, while much more powerful in the firearms department than say anything in Gotham because they're dealing with Superman, are still far more street level than the likes of Parasite and Livewire. In power scales if Zod and Brainiac are As then Parasite and Livewire are Bs, lesser villains then them might be Cs, and the villains we're discussing are Ds. At least seems that way at any rate.


I'm going to let you know - when I started this thread I was hoping people would repudiate my question with some examples from the comics since I haven't read much and I might learn of some decent stories. Two pages in without this happening has spoken more on how poorly these guys must be utilized in the last few decades than anything else.

Parasite is usually a super-mook, and often mafia type stories.

Livewire... often.... is just doing whatever amuses her. She sometimes acts in a super-team, but more often is just an agent of random chaos. but that lends toward slice-of-life stuff since despite her power... she tends to be very petty. Stories with Livewire are small-scall... high power events.

[The Frog Bros]

Parasite and Livewire aren't in the same boat. The mobs/gangs, while much more powerful in the firearms department than say anything in Gotham because they're dealing with Superman, are still far more street level than the likes of Parasite and Livewire. In power scales if Zod and Brainiac are As then Parasite and Livewire are Bs, lesser villains then them might be Cs, and the villains we're discussing are Ds. At least seems that way at any rate.


I'm going to let you know - when I started this thread I was hoping people would repudiate my question with some examples from the comics since I haven't read much and I might learn of some decent stories. Two pages in without this happening has spoken more on how poorly these guys must be utilized in the last few decades than anything else.

Invisible Mafia from the Bendis era was pretty cool. It also had Red Cloud, who was a decent villain (tho art was hit or miss depending on artist, Sook version was far superior to Romita Jr, imo). It also had a cool twist with the original green car from AC #1 (which ultimately never really got explored cause Bendis got axed).

[williamtheday]

By the way, Ugly Manheim got turned into a gold statue in my universe, Earth-Ace.

[Frontier]

Parasite and Livewire aren't in the same boat. The mobs/gangs, while much more powerful in the firearms department than say anything in Gotham because they're dealing with Superman, are still far more street level than the likes of Parasite and Livewire. In power scales if Zod and Brainiac are As then Parasite and Livewire are Bs, lesser villains then them might be Cs, and the villains we're discussing are Ds. At least seems that way at any rate.


I'm going to let you know - when I started this thread I was hoping people would repudiate my question with some examples from the comics since I haven't read much and I might learn of some decent stories. Two pages in without this happening has spoken more on how poorly these guys must be utilized in the last few decades than anything else.

At least in my experience Intergang are known for having really high-grade tech (sometimes from Apokolips) which can probably at least do some damage to Supes.

I know Greg Pak just recently used Intergang in a Metropolis story in City Boy.

I wonder if there were any major Intergang stories during the Triangle era. I feel like there would've been.