Are the "mob" villains still useful?

[Kuwagaton]

At least in my experience Intergang are known for having really high-grade tech (sometimes from Apokolips) which can probably at least do some damage to Supes.

I know Greg Pak just recently used Intergang in a Metropolis story in City Boy.

I wonder if there were any major Intergang stories during the Triangle era. I feel like there would've been.

Intergang was mostly reoccurring between 1988-1991, then revived as a central antagonist body from 1996-1999. But the cool part about all that Kirby stuff is how it bled in, so you didn't have the Intergang issue or 6 issues of Intergang before something different. Maybe Dabney, Edge, Jimmy and the Hairies, or even originals from the world of Superman like Toyman playing into the same plot and keeping with the undercurrent.

There was also a time where to be relevant writers didn't ask "How can I make Toyman more disturbing, unhinged, creepy, and dangerous?" Simpler times. Still disgusted by the pedophile child killer of the animated film Superman Doomsday.

Honestly, I regard live action, animated films, and stuff like that as Fanta, while we're talking about products from oranges. They can probably be entertaining but do not hold much weight when talking about the source for me.

The biggest thing to happen to Bruno in decades was CW's Superman & Lois, not the books. Is that telling?

Unused ideas aren't bad ideas at all. Superman no longer time travels, Perry hasn't had a life outside of the DP etc. but that says more about what people prefer to do than what's worth doing.

I do need to check out City Boy though tbh

[magha_regulus]

They have a role, especially now that the secret identity is back. These are things Clark Kent should be exposing and fighting against. I'd love it if they showed more of the way organized crime works in Metropolis. Bendis' Invisible Mafia was such a good idea, one of the best he had actually. I want to see them again.

[The Overlord]

Most people think of Brainiac and Zod and other superpowered villains who can give Superman a big all out brawl of a fight. Lex Luthor seems to be the only non-super people recognize, and even he can don power armor and slug it out with the Man of Steel. So...what point does Metropolis' mob bosses and general organized crime still serve in the Superman story? Sure Intergang's useful as one of Darksied's earthly contacts/feelers if you want to build him up, and they're a good supply for "humans get weapons to hurt Superman" hooks, but what does Bosses Moxie or Bruno still serve? Does the organized crime leaders and elements still make sense in a Superman book, or are they nothing but filler between Zod smackdowns and whatever chaos Lobo's causing on any given day?

The thing is, unless you turn the Superman books into purely cosmic stories, you need to have these lower-stakes stories. You do cosmic stories where Superman fights Zod, Mongul, Brainiac, Darkseid, etc, but its kinda hard to justify Superman's support cast and most of his rogues' gallery if he is just doing cosmic stories. I think if Clark is going to remain a reporter, he should have to deal with mobsters, it's something Clark should deal with rather than Superman.

[DochaDocha]

There is a use for them, but you just have to be smart about it. They make a lot of sense as villains for young New 52 Superman, but if you have a long story arc mapped out their influence would have to decline. I don't think they would make sense for a movie or anything like that, but they can still be pulling strings, driving corruption, working underground, etc. You just can't have bank robbers every other week in Metropolis.

[marhawkman]

There is a use for them, but you just have to be smart about it. They make a lot of sense as villains for young New 52 Superman, but if you have a long story arc mapped out their influence would have to decline. I don't think they would make sense for a movie or anything like that, but they can still be pulling strings, driving corruption, working underground, etc. You just can't have bank robbers every other week in Metropolis.

Wel, as I have said before... being a hero isn't about just... living. Bad guys don't need to be a threat to YOU in order to be a threat. Like your bank robber example.... the success/fail is rooted in if you prevent the robbery. If the robbers escape... you failed.

[DochaDocha]

Wel, as I have said before... being a hero isn't about just... living. Bad guys don't need to be a threat to YOU in order to be a threat. Like your bank robber example.... the success/fail is rooted in if you prevent the robbery. If the robbers escape... you failed.

Agreed. I picked young Superman because 1) he's not going to have it all figured out yet so there will be unintended consequences and 2) as he becomes more effective, the mobsters are going to get more and more discouraged. A theme for Superman movies going forward I would like to see is that even when Superman makes the best possible decision, there are still bound to be negative consequences. He can handle the mob correctly 9 out of 10 times but there's going to be pushback on that one thing that didn't go well with a lot of folks.

[marhawkman]

Agreed. I picked young Superman because 1) he's not going to have it all figured out yet so there will be unintended consequences and 2) as he becomes more effective, the mobsters are going to get more and more discouraged. A theme for Superman movies going forward I would like to see is that even when Superman makes the best possible decision, there are still bound to be negative consequences. He can handle the mob correctly 9 out of 10 times but there's going to be pushback on that one thing that didn't go well with a lot of folks.

A good old fashioned "win by losing" story goes a long way there. Maybe the REAL goal of the art theft was actually to make the venue look bad?

[The Overlord]

Wel, as I have said before... being a hero isn't about just... living. Bad guys don't need to be a threat to YOU in order to be a threat. Like your bank robber example.... the success/fail is rooted in if you prevent the robbery. If the robbers escape... you failed.

At this point, the money is insured and the banks are just foreclosing on people. Superman should be about protecting people, not defending some bank's insurance rate. Really corruption presented by Lex Luthor and mobsters like Intergang presents a greater threat than some costumed fool robbing banks.

Agreed. I picked young Superman because 1) he's not going to have it all figured out yet so there will be unintended consequences and 2) as he becomes more effective, the mobsters are going to get more and more discouraged. A theme for Superman movies going forward I would like to see is that even when Superman makes the best possible decision, there are still bound to be negative consequences. He can handle the mob correctly 9 out of 10 times but there's going to be pushback on that one thing that didn't go well with a lot of folks.

Even Superman cannot be everywhere all at once and solving more systemic issues is harder than a more direct threat from bank robbers or alien invasions. Superman cannot stop every drug deal, gun-running scheme, murder-for-hire plot, numbers-running scheme, etc. I do think Superman would cut into their profits, but I think Clark should be a bigger thorn in the gangsters' side than Superman because he can use his investigative and reporting skills against them.

[Vordan]

There is a use for them, but you just have to be smart about it. They make a lot of sense as villains for young New 52 Superman, but if you have a long story arc mapped out their influence would have to decline. I don't think they would make sense for a movie or anything like that, but they can still be pulling strings, driving corruption, working underground, etc. You just can't have bank robbers every other week in Metropolis.

You can’t have ordinary bank robbers for sure. But to look at what Hickman has been doing over in Ultimate Invasion:




This is the kind of tech that Intergang should be using. This is how you make them the kind of threat that gives even Superman pause. Now you can have bank robbers who pose a challenge to even Superman.

[DochaDocha]

s. Superman cannot stop every drug deal, gun-running scheme, murder-for-hire plot, numbers-running scheme, etc. I do think Superman would cut into their profits, but I think Clark should be a bigger thorn in the gangsters' side than Superman because he can use his investigative and reporting skills against them.

I thought about that. I think an interesting story could be that if Clark wrote too much about corruption then there'd be reprisals against the DP. That could be an interesting story while once again demonstrating that doing the right thing doesn't simply make problems go away.

You can’t have ordinary bank robbers for sure. But to look at what Hickman has been doing over in Ultimate Invasion:


This is the kind of tech that Intergang should be using. This is how you make them the kind of threat that gives even Superman pause. Now you can have bank robbers who pose a challenge to even Superman.

Certainly. I could've/should've mentioned specific stuff like Intergang, though to some degree they're so far displaced from mobsters in a traditional sense.

[Vakanai]

The thing is, unless you turn the Superman books into purely cosmic stories, you need to have these lower-stakes stories. You do cosmic stories where Superman fights Zod, Mongul, Brainiac, Darkseid, etc, but its kinda hard to justify Superman's support cast and most of his rogues' gallery if he is just doing cosmic stories. I think if Clark is going to remain a reporter, he should have to deal with mobsters, it's something Clark should deal with rather than Superman.

There's a difference between lower stakes and unimportant though. Think about Under the Red Hood for Batman - that was technically low stakes, not cosmic or Batman's equivalent and yet it wasn't some filler/slice of life episode the writer only did because you can't have Gotham be under threat every story arc. It was low stakes, but it was important and still an event. The argument here seems to be that the Metropolis mobs are only there for the unimportant stories people won't remember because not every story can be Metropolis/Earth/Universe ending. I don't know if "we need filler arcs" is a worthwhile argument for what good these villains are to Superman's story. You're arguing that they're supposed to be forgettable to just pass time. That's kinda sad.

[Vakanai]

Even Superman cannot be everywhere all at once and solving more systemic issues is harder than a more direct threat from bank robbers or alien invasions. Superman cannot stop every drug deal, gun-running scheme, murder-for-hire plot, numbers-running scheme, etc. I do think Superman would cut into their profits, but I think Clark should be a bigger thorn in the gangsters' side than Superman because he can use his investigative and reporting skills against them.

You can’t have ordinary bank robbers for sure. But to look at what Hickman has been doing over in Ultimate Invasion:

[snip]

This is the kind of tech that Intergang should be using. This is how you make them the kind of threat that gives even Superman pause. Now you can have bank robbers who pose a challenge to even Superman.

I thought about that. I think an interesting story could be that if Clark wrote too much about corruption then there'd be reprisals against the DP. That could be an interesting story while once again demonstrating that doing the right thing doesn't simply make problems go away.

See, these are more interesting ideas.

[Frontier]

There's a difference between lower stakes and unimportant though. Think about Under the Red Hood for Batman - that was technically low stakes, not cosmic or Batman's equivalent and yet it wasn't some filler/slice of life episode the writer only did because you can't have Gotham be under threat every story arc. It was low stakes, but it was important and still an event. The argument here seems to be that the Metropolis mobs are only there for the unimportant stories people won't remember because not every story can be Metropolis/Earth/Universe ending. I don't know if "we need filler arcs" is a worthwhile argument for what good these villains are to Superman's story. You're arguing that they're supposed to be forgettable to just pass time. That's kinda sad.

I don't think anyone's saying they're stories are unimportant/filler though? It's all in the execution and intent of the story.

[The Overlord]

There's a difference between lower stakes and unimportant though. Think about Under the Red Hood for Batman - that was technically low stakes, not cosmic or Batman's equivalent and yet it wasn't some filler/slice of life episode the writer only did because you can't have Gotham be under threat every story arc. It was low stakes, but it was important and still an event. The argument here seems to be that the Metropolis mobs are only there for the unimportant stories people won't remember because not every story can be Metropolis/Earth/Universe ending. I don't know if "we need filler arcs" is a worthwhile argument for what good these villains are to Superman's story. You're arguing that they're supposed to be forgettable to just pass time. That's kinda sad.

So if mobsters are just threatening a few people or even one person, are those stakes that are too low? Are a few lives or one life unworthy of Superman's time? Is systemic corruption in Metropolis something beneath Superman's notice? Also, what should Clark Kent be doing as a reporter, covering the local flower show? Doesn't investigating gangsters give Clark and Lois something to do as reporters?

I feel like if Superman only fights god-like beings like Brainiac, he loses some of his humanity in the process. Superman should not be a purely cosmic character like Green Lantern or Silver Surfer. Also, any story can be meaningful and not forgettable, if the writer puts in the right effort.

[DochaDocha]

So if mobsters are just threatening a few people or even one person, are those stakes that are too low? Are a few lives or one life unworthy of Superman's time? Is systemic corruption in Metropolis something beneath Superman's notice? Also, what should Clark Kent be doing as a reporter, covering the local flower show? Doesn't investigating gangsters give Clark and Lois something to do as reporters?

I feel like if Superman only fights god-like beings like Brainiac, he loses some of his humanity in the process. Superman should not be a purely cosmic character like Green Lantern or Silver Surfer. Also, any story can be meaningful and not forgettable, if the writer puts in the right effort.

For a big-budget, cinematic release? Absolutely, and unfortunately. They're important for series (TV, comics, etc.), but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of story got pitched for a direct-to-video release and got nixed right away.

This is the understated importance of having a(n animated) Superman TV series. It gives creators license to tell these smaller-scale, more personal stories that will get auto-rejected at the movie level. If we only got big-budget Superman movies (pipe dream, I know), Superman would actually get stale. And to add insult to injury, we don't exactly get a lot of them, either.