Are the "mob" villains still useful?

[JackDaw]

For a big-budget, cinematic release? Absolutely, and unfortunately. They're important for series (TV, comics, etc.), but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of story got pitched for a direct-to-video release and got nixed right away.

This is the understated importance of having a(n animated) Superman TV series. It gives creators license to tell these smaller-scale, more personal stories that will get auto-rejected at the movie level. If we only got big-budget Superman movies (pipe dream, I know), Superman would actually get stale. And to add insult to injury, we don't exactly get a lot of them, either.

I’ve not thought of it that way, but it probably explains why over the years I’ve tended to enjoy the tv shows more than the movies.

[Kuwagaton]

The worst thing about live action to me is the very general idea of "we can't." We can't, we don't have the budget. We can't, our budget is too big. I would not expect to see Superman vs the mob in movie no matter what kind of excellence is possible, they'd feel crazy not blowing $300 million on special effects and destructible playsets. I mean even if you might be able to include those things on a smaller scale anyway.

Marvel turned a corner when they realized that they could translate comic ideas verbatim. Maybe the next big revolution will concern the fact that big and good aren't the same thing.

[JBatmanFan05]

You can’t have ordinary bank robbers for sure. But to look at what Hickman has been doing over in Ultimate Invasion:

This is the kind of tech that Intergang should be using. This is how you make them the kind of threat that gives even Superman pause. Now you can have bank robbers who pose a challenge to even Superman.

Yeah, what's sad is that the answer, for me, is simple, you can and should use more genre criminals/robbers and mobsters, but you can take the classic tropes and then add some sci-fi elements to them here and there if you need them to meet Superman's level more.

[The Overlord]

For a big-budget, cinematic release? Absolutely, and unfortunately. They're important for series (TV, comics, etc.), but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of story got pitched for a direct-to-video release and got nixed right away.

This is the understated importance of having a(n animated) Superman TV series. It gives creators license to tell these smaller-scale, more personal stories that will get auto-rejected at the movie level. If we only got big-budget Superman movies (pipe dream, I know), Superman would actually get stale. And to add insult to injury, we don't exactly get a lot of them, either.

I thought we were talking about stories in the comics. Yeah, for a movie those stakes would be too low, but for a TV episode, those stakes work there.

[marhawkman]

The worst thing about live action to me is the very general idea of "we can't." We can't, we don't have the budget. We can't, our budget is too big. I would not expect to see Superman vs the mob in movie no matter what kind of excellence is possible, they'd feel crazy not blowing $300 million on special effects and destructible playsets. I mean even if you might be able to include those things on a smaller scale anyway.

Marvel turned a corner when they realized that they could translate comic ideas verbatim. Maybe the next big revolution will concern the fact that big and good aren't the same thing.

Hollywood is addicted to the idea of big-budget blockbusters. It's come to be what separates Hollywood from the "lesser" studios. Problem is.... the more a movie costs to make, the more revenue you need to get a profit. 200M box-office gross would be AMAZING... for a movie that cost 50M to make. For a movie that had a filming budget of 250M it's a mega-flop to only get 200M gross. 200M net is bad, but gross 200M is horrible if your production budget is 250M.

Hollywood has a big issue with largess. They have attracted people who wanna spend big when they make movies. But it's become high-risk due to the sheer scale of the costs of the movies.

[Vakanai]

So if mobsters are just threatening a few people or even one person, are those stakes that are too low?

I think you might've purposefully misunderstood me here because I've said it before - filler doesn't mean "low stakes", some of my favorite stories are low stakes, Superman Smashes the Klan and Batman Under the Red Hood are low stakes, and aren't filler. Do you understand? Filler does not mean low stakes! The difference is the writers of those stories loved those stories, they weren't treated like some inferior story they needed to do to pad time. That's the difference - is it a story that the writer cares about? Like beyond the need for a pay check or just maintaining professional quality? That's the difference, that's what I'm talking about. I don't give a **** if it's 1 life or a million because it doesn't fucking matter if the story is treated as unimportant by the writer.

Sorry about that, but I've explained it before and somehow people keep thinking I'm saying "if it's not high stakes it's filler dur dur dur" when I've never implied that and have explained that's not what I mean or think. Filler to me are stories where high stakes or low the writer's just turning in mediocre work purposely because this isn't the story they're wanting to tell. I mean Yang made a book where Superman dealing with a bunch of KKK knockoffs and tackling racism was one of the best Superman stories ever told. Most writers treat the human villains like Intergang or the Invisible Mafia as unimportant, and I don't mean unimportant as in low stakes but as in narratively they got nothing to say with such characters in a Superman story.

Heck the very post of mine you quoted started with "There's a difference between lower stakes and unimportant though" and yet you still misunderstood and asked if one life in danger stories are too low - it isn't about how low or high the stakes are, but how important the writer makes the story. And though I read a very few Superman stories (limited funds, no LCS) I sift through reviews and this forum and all so the few books I get are ideally ones I'll like - and in my research and observations deciding what books to get this year or wishlist for next or whenever they're collected in trade etc, it feels like from what most people say that most writers only treat the big event high stakes as important and don't bring their A game to stories that aren't world ending or above. I'm not asking for hypotheticals on how low stake stories can be important or how powerless tech villains like these could be used, I'm asking are they still useful - as in do writers still use them in worthwhile ways or are they completely reduced to low effort books no one's going to talk about or remember? Again low effort is not the same as low stakes, but from what I'm getting from people it seems like a lot of low stakes stories are treated as low effort by writers these days.

[Vakanai]

For a big-budget, cinematic release? Absolutely, and unfortunately. They're important for series (TV, comics, etc.), but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of story got pitched for a direct-to-video release and got nixed right away.

This is the understated importance of having a(n animated) Superman TV series. It gives creators license to tell these smaller-scale, more personal stories that will get auto-rejected at the movie level. If we only got big-budget Superman movies (pipe dream, I know), Superman would actually get stale. And to add insult to injury, we don't exactly get a lot of them, either.

Disagree sort of - Batman Under the Red Hood was low stakes when you think about it, but was huge for other reasons and made an amazing movie. Superman Smashes the Klan is one of the most requested stories to get animated (I stopped requesting it and pray it's years if not over a decade before they green light it because I know the current animated movie team will 100% make a horrible adaptation of it; but if there was a competent team instead working on it then yeah Smashes the Klan is the #1 movie I want animated). It's all in execution and the right story with low stakes done well could definitely make it to even the theater release - not DC but look at The Invincibles, the world wasn't exactly under threat.

But agreed sort of as well - if pitched as movies with no huge comic book success behind it then definitely they'd get shot down. Need comics and graphic novels to tell these smaller scale stories first. I think it's inevitable that we'll get a Superman Smashes the Klan adaptation one day (and I pray we have better people working on these adaptations when we do), but that's because of the success of the book. If you pitched it as a movie without having made that book first no way would it ever happen. Metropolis isn't doomed to explode or anything, the stakes are really low compared to most superhero movies. But it's the story around those stakes and how it's presented that makes it so good. Plus it's just satisfying deep in my soul to see those bigots get tossed around and get their comeuppance. I mean the Klan (or a reasonably close stand in) is like the Nazis - villains we can all root for Superman to take down with a smile.

[Vakanai]

Yeah, what's sad is that the answer, for me, is simple, you can and should use more genre criminals/robbers and mobsters, but you can take the classic tropes and then add some sci-fi elements to them here and there if you need them to meet Superman's level more.

For as bad as the villains are treated in MAWS, if you think about it, they're kinda treated this way. They basically are robbers and mobsters given sci-fi elements to meet Superman's level more - problem is we don't like it when named villains who don't get adapted often are basically relegated to robbers and such.

[Frontier]

I think S:TAS had an episode where it was just Supes fighting Intergang (maybe two) and that also introduced Apokolips.

[godisawesome]

I think S:TAS had an episode where it was just Supes fighting Intergang (maybe two) and that also introduced Apokolips.

Yup. But I think, backing up Vakanai’s point a bit, those were more set-up episodes for someone else, rather than the “main attraction” being a crime story.

Again, I think that one of STAS’s greatest episodes was The Late Mr. Kent, with Detective Bowman and his car bomb hijinks being the main attraction of the episode, and arguably creating a better story just by making a solid crime story for Superman. It’s still a series highlight, and arguably a little bit better than the vast bulk of the still-solid villain origin episodes.

In some ways, it’s startling how few “mystery” stories they do with Lois and Clark in comics.

[marhawkman]

Yup. But I think, backing up Vakanai’s point a bit, those were more set-up episodes for someone else, rather than the “main attraction” being a crime story.

Again, I think that one of STAS’s greatest episodes was The Late Mr. Kent, with Detective Bowman and his car bomb hijinks being the main attraction of the episode, and arguably creating a better story just by making a solid crime story for Superman. It’s still a series highlight, and arguably a little bit better than the vast bulk of the still-solid villain origin episodes.

In some ways, it’s startling how few “mystery” stories they do with Lois and Clark in comics.

Yeah, a Hollywood big-budget blockbuster-wannabe film isn't gonna go for "ordinary" enemies unless they're a lead up to some big bad.

Serial fiction is different in that it has a lower bar for story telling... or used to anyways.

[Vakanai]

In some ways, it’s startling how few “mystery” stories they do with Lois and Clark in comics.

This! I never noticed it until I started watching some of the old Reeves 1950s Superman where they actually did fight the mob and crooks and gangsters that this was a huge missing ingredient to Superman. He and Lois are investigative reporters, basically the detectives of journalism, this should be their bread and butter. Yet instead most of the journalism part of their DNA has somehow turned into "once Superman saves earth from Zod/Brainiac/Lex Lois writes about it." Their journalism, least in the books cartoons movies live action series etc I've seen in 30 years, no longer leads them into the adventure. It's really an after thought. Look, I'm a Batman fan but I'm kind of sick myself that everyone seems to consider only Bruce capable of being the detective one. Clark and Lois should definitely be solving mysteries and uncovering conspiracies beyond just "and Darkseid is making another invasion attempt...again."

We need more of that B&W 1950s Adventures of Superman gangster stuff injected back into the franchise and modernized for now. It'd work, it'd be awesome, and it'd make the question I posed with this thread obsolete. But right now, DC and the creatives just aren't doing that.

[The Overlord]

I think you might've purposefully misunderstood me here because I've said it before - filler doesn't mean "low stakes", some of my favorite stories are low stakes, Superman Smashes the Klan and Batman Under the Red Hood are low stakes, and aren't filler. Do you understand? Filler does not mean low stakes! The difference is the writers of those stories loved those stories, they weren't treated like some inferior story they needed to do to pad time. That's the difference - is it a story that the writer cares about? Like beyond the need for a pay check or just maintaining professional quality? That's the difference, that's what I'm talking about. I don't give a **** if it's 1 life or a million because it doesn't fucking matter if the story is treated as unimportant by the writer.

Sorry about that, but I've explained it before and somehow people keep thinking I'm saying "if it's not high stakes it's filler dur dur dur" when I've never implied that and have explained that's not what I mean or think. Filler to me are stories where high stakes or low the writer's just turning in mediocre work purposely because this isn't the story they're wanting to tell. I mean Yang made a book where Superman dealing with a bunch of KKK knockoffs and tackling racism was one of the best Superman stories ever told. Most writers treat the human villains like Intergang or the Invisible Mafia as unimportant, and I don't mean unimportant as in low stakes but as in narratively they got nothing to say with such characters in a Superman story.

Heck the very post of mine you quoted started with "There's a difference between lower stakes and unimportant though" and yet you still misunderstood and asked if one life in danger stories are too low - it isn't about how low or high the stakes are, but how important the writer makes the story. And though I read a very few Superman stories (limited funds, no LCS) I sift through reviews and this forum and all so the few books I get are ideally ones I'll like - and in my research and observations deciding what books to get this year or wishlist for next or whenever they're collected in trade etc, it feels like from what most people say that most writers only treat the big event high stakes as important and don't bring their A game to stories that aren't world ending or above. I'm not asking for hypotheticals on how low stake stories can be important or how powerless tech villains like these could be used, I'm asking are they still useful - as in do writers still use them in worthwhile ways or are they completely reduced to low effort books no one's going to talk about or remember? Again low effort is not the same as low stakes, but from what I'm getting from people it seems like a lot of low stakes stories are treated as low effort by writers these days.

Okay, fine, if I misunderstood of your point about lower stakes stories, I apologize.

But then I do not think you are not defining what counts as filler or not. You could have a throw away story where Superman fights Brainiac and it sucks because the writer put no effort into it.

I think everyone here are has given you reason for the gangsters to be in a Superman book, they give Lois and Clark something to investigate as reporters.

They also add to the world of Metropolis, add a dark under belly to the city of tomorrow.

Yeah, if the gangsters are stupid and all they do is rob banks in the middle of the day, they would be dull. But if they are smart, they wouldn't do that.

Intergang could also be a middle man for Lex Luthor, if Lex's factories are producing toxic waste and Lex does not want to pay to properly dispose of them, he can have an junior executive contact Intergang and Bruno Mannheim has some low level goons dump the waste in the river or something. Lex creates a web of corruption that Intergang benefits from.

I read a series of Lois Lane YA novels that dealt gangsters like Moxie Mannheim and shady business men. The gangsters and business men had crazy sci fi tech and were creating clones and human hive minds, but Lois had to investigate their criminal conspiracies to defeat them.

[Vakanai]

Okay, fine, if I misunderstood of your point about lower stakes stories, I apologize.

But then I do not think you are not defining what counts as filler or not. You could have a throw away story where Superman fights Brainiac and it sucks because the writer put no effort into it.

Pretty much - like I said, to me filler, trash stories, call them what you will but they're the stories that don't matter, and I don't mean as in don't matter to some great big story arc or whatever, but as in they just don't matter as stories, they're not trying to do or be anything but forgettable time sinks. Highly disposable effortless trash stories. Which isn't the same as bad stories, like when a writer is actually trying to make a good story and putting in effort and it sucks. Just forgettable fluff I consider filler. Time passers. I don't know how better to describe them. They're not trying to be interesting (which is different from slice of life stories - they might not matter to some great big story arc but there's effort there and they're trying to interest and appeal - slice of life stories are not filler).

I think everyone here are has given you reason for the gangsters to be in a Superman book, they give Lois and Clark something to investigate as reporters.

Except they really haven't. They've described what they would like to see be done with them, and if writers were actually doing that then we'd have a reason for them to be in a Superman book. But instead the argument is "they're not actually of any use right now, and haven't been for years/decades, and nothing hints they'll be of use in the future, but a writer could totally have Clark and Lois invetigate them some day if a writer is interested in that!" That's not a use, that's a hope, a wish. People have given wishes for these villains in Superman. To be honest when I started this thread I had hoped someone would give me more than that, but I haven't seen it. Seems like outside of introducing bigger Kirby villains like Darkseid Intergang hasn't served much other purpose, and other mobsters and gangsters and organized crime has just been...absent.

They also add to the world of Metropolis, add a dark under belly to the city of tomorrow.

Except again most of the time they don't, or people would be naming a bunch of times where they do so. They add to setting up Darkseid or something, that's what writers actually use them for. If writers did use them to add to the world of Metropolis and to add a dark underbelly to the City of Tomorrow that'd be great. But so far no one's naming any time where they add any of that. Again, it's all wishes, ideals, what we keep in our heads as to what these villains could and should be used for but not what actually appears anywhere outside a handful of aging stories. With the passing of time it's like arguing what Nuclear Man from Superman IIII The Quest for Peace adds to Superman stories now - yes the movies and comics are different, the idea here being that Nuclear Man and the mob elements are so removed from the version of Superman's world we see now that they're getting closer to each other in relevancy. Or at least I've heard nothing to make me think different. You can't say they add anything if writers aren't actually using them in that way. That's what you want for them, that's where you place them in your head and canon. But story wise they're not adding to anything but padding out the rare story the writer isn't particularly interested in, otherwise I'd have heard someone mention them in some story.

Yeah, if the gangsters are stupid and all they do is rob banks in the middle of the day, they would be dull. But if they smart, they wouldn't do that.

Do writers write them as smart?

Intergang could also be a middle man for Lex Luthor, if Lex's factories are producing toxic waste and Lex does not want to pay to properly dispose of them, he can have an junior executive contact Intergang and Bruno Mannheim has some low level goons dump the waste in the river or something. Lex creates a web of corruption that Intergang benefits from.

Could be. That's the problem, it's all could be, none of it is currently being.

I read a series of Lois Lane YA novels that dealt gangsters like Moxie Mannheim and shady business men. The gangsters and business men had crazy sci fi tech and were creating clones and human hive minds, but Lois had to investigate their criminal conspiracies to defeat them.

This - I read the Lois Lane YA novels too and loved them! And they show what could be if the comic books utilized them like everyone is suggesting here. In Lois Lane these types of mysteries and villains saw use and it was amazing! But what use are they in the comic books? Not what use do you wish they were, but what actual use do they serve as written. Because it doesn't seem like they're being used to add to Metropolis and its dark underbelly like people say/hope/wish/dream. Seems like they're there most often to fill page space and page count. Is that really a use? The YA novels had the right idea, will the comics?

[The Overlord]

Pretty much - like I said, to me filler, trash stories, call them what you will but they're the stories that don't matter, and I don't mean as in don't matter to some great big story arc or whatever, but as in they just don't matter as stories, they're not trying to do or be anything but forgettable time sinks. Highly disposable effortless trash stories. Which isn't the same as bad stories, like when a writer is actually trying to make a good story and putting in effort and it sucks. Just forgettable fluff I consider filler. Time passers. I don't know how better to describe them. They're not trying to be interesting (which is different from slice of life stories - they might not matter to some great big story arc but there's effort there and they're trying to interest and appeal - slice of life stories are not filler).



Except they really haven't. They've described what they would like to see be done with them, and if writers were actually doing that then we'd have a reason for them to be in a Superman book. But instead the argument is "they're not actually of any use right now, and haven't been for years/decades, and nothing hints they'll be of use in the future, but a writer could totally have Clark and Lois invetigate them some day if a writer is interested in that!" That's not a use, that's a hope, a wish. People have given wishes for these villains in Superman. To be honest when I started this thread I had hoped someone would give me more than that, but I haven't seen it. Seems like outside of introducing bigger Kirby villains like Darkseid Intergang hasn't served much other purpose, and other mobsters and gangsters and organized crime has just been...absent.



Except again most of the time they don't, or people would be naming a bunch of times where they do so. They add to setting up Darkseid or something, that's what writers actually use them for. If writers did use them to add to the world of Metropolis and to add a dark underbelly to the City of Tomorrow that'd be great. But so far no one's naming any time where they add any of that. Again, it's all wishes, ideals, what we keep in our heads as to what these villains could and should be used for but not what actually appears anywhere outside a handful of aging stories. With the passing of time it's like arguing what Nuclear Man from Superman IIII The Quest for Peace adds to Superman stories now - yes the movies and comics are different, the idea here being that Nuclear Man and the mob elements are so removed from the version of Superman's world we see now that they're getting closer to each other in relevancy. Or at least I've heard nothing to make me think different. You can't say they add anything if writers aren't actually using them in that way. That's what you want for them, that's where you place them in your head and canon. But story wise they're not adding to anything but padding out the rare story the writer isn't particularly interested in, otherwise I'd have heard someone mention them in some story.



Do writers write them as smart?



Could be. That's the problem, it's all could be, none of it is currently being.



This - I read the Lois Lane YA novels too and loved them! And they show what could be if the comic books utilized them like everyone is suggesting here. In Lois Lane these types of mysteries and villains saw use and it was amazing! But what use are they in the comic books? Not what use do you wish they were, but what actual use do they serve as written. Because it doesn't seem like they're being used to add to Metropolis and its dark underbelly like people say/hope/wish/dream. Seems like they're there most often to fill page space and page count. Is that really a use? The YA novels had the right idea, will the comics?

Since no one here is the writer or editor of a Superman book, we can only talk about wishes or desires for possible uses of gangsters in the comics, you can't ask people here to will better stories with these gangster stories into existence, so talking about the potential of these characters is more fruitful.

Any story could be filler or could be great, a story where Superman fights Brainiac could be filler in the wrong hands.

But Intergang or other gangsters are failures of execution, not concept. Heck the Lois and Clark show from the 90s had Intergang and no Darkseid. I think Intergang had some fun moments in that show.

Do the writers use Intergang and other gangsters in an interesting manner? Not really. Could they be interesting? Yes, easily.