Are the "mob" villains still useful?

[Vakanai]

Since no one here is the writer or editor of a Superman book, we can only talk about wishes or desires for possible uses of gangsters in the comics, you can't ask people here to will better stories with these gangster stories into existence, so talking about the potential of these characters is more fruitful.

Any story could be filler or could be great, a story where Superman fights Brainiac could be filler in the wrong hands.

But Intergang or other gangsters are failures of execution, not concept. Heck the Lois and Clark show from the 90s had Intergang and no Darkseid. I think Intergang had some fun moments in that show.

Do the writers use Intergang and other gangsters in an interesting manner? Not really. Could they be interesting? Yes, easily.

I'm not asking people to will better stories to exist. I'm asking if the mob villains are still currently useful to Superman stories, and I'm only getting people's desires for what they want to see done. Which is interesting, but the actual answer to the question seems to be - no, not really. They're not useful villains and haven't been so in a long time - writers just aren't interested in them, except Bendis with the Invisible Mafia, and that went nowhere. So I guess you're right, there's nothing more really to do but talk about how we wish these characters would be used.

[The Overlord]

I'm not asking people to will better stories to exist. I'm asking if the mob villains are still currently useful to Superman stories, and I'm only getting people's desires for what they want to see done. Which is interesting, but the actual answer to the question seems to be - no, not really. They're not useful villains and haven't been so in a long time - writers just aren't interested in them, except Bendis with the Invisible Mafia, and that went nowhere. So I guess you're right, there's nothing more really to do but talk about how we wish these characters would be used.

But look what you said in the OP:

Most people think of Brainiac and Zod and other superpowered villains who can give Superman a big all out brawl of a fight. Lex Luthor seems to be the only non-super people recognize, and even he can don power armor and slug it out with the Man of Steel. So...what point does Metropolis' mob bosses and general organized crime still serve in the Superman story? Sure Intergang's useful as one of Darksied's earthly contacts/feelers if you want to build him up, and they're a good supply for "humans get weapons to hurt Superman" hooks, but what does Bosses Moxie or Bruno still serve? Does the organized crime leaders and elements still make sense in a Superman book, or are they nothing but filler between Zod smackdowns and whatever chaos Lobo's causing on any given day?

Asking what purpose these characters serve asks if these characters can be used well, not if they are being used well currently.

You asked whether organized crime makes sense as a element in Superman, that is a question of potentialty. You asked whether these gangsters can serve a purpose and everyone here said yes. Whether the writers realize that purpose is a different matter and not really fun to discuss.

You can't ask broad questions like that and leave out potentialty. In terms of execution, anything can suck from Intergang to Brainiac, but the more intriguing question is, can it potentially work well within a Superman book?

[Vakanai]

But look what you said in the OP:




Asking what purpose these characters serve asks if these characters can be used well, not if they are being used well currently.

I don't think so, or at least that's not how I meant it. I'm asking as Superman, his stories, and his villains including these, are being written by writers now and frankly in a long time, and in how all this is likely to track as far as what most writers' interests are when writing Superman stories, do they still serve a purpose? Not what purpose can they serve or that you would like to see them serve, but in the much more honest are writers really ever going to use these guys in an interesting way any time soon or even the next couple decades or have these characters just been largely relegated to the dust bin of villains writers aren't interested in and don't think readers are interested in and only serve as occasional padding when honestly any no name bank robber with a raygun would do? That's what my intent was to ask. Any character could be useful, but I'm not asking that. I'm asking if they still serve a use as far as writers and DC are concerned, and I'm not getting any real argument on that point.

Basically I was trying to feel out if I was wrong and writers actually do something interesting with these. And it seems sadly I was right and they don't really. I never meant to ask if organized crime makes sense in a Superman story, but if organized crime ever is used or serves any purpose in modern stories modern writers have written.

You asked whether these gangsters can serve a purpose and everyone here said yes.

No I didn't. I asked whether they do serve a purpose, not if they can. And no one has given any evidence that they do, only that they could.

Whether the writers realize that purpose is a different matter and not really fun to discuss.

Except it isn't a different matter, that's basically my interest, have any writers realized a purpose for them?

You can't ask broad questions like that and leave out potentialty.

Yes, I can.

[The Overlord]

I don't think so, or at least that's not how I meant it. I'm asking as Superman, his stories, and his villains including these, are being written by writers now and frankly in a long time, and in how all this is likely to track as far as what most writers' interests are when writing Superman stories, do they still serve a purpose? Not what purpose can they serve or that you would like to see them serve, but in the much more honest are writers really ever going to use these guys in an interesting way any time soon or even the next couple decades or have these characters just been largely relegated to the dust bin of villains writers aren't interested in and don't think readers are interested in and only serve as occasional padding when honestly any no name bank robber with a raygun would do? That's what my intent was to ask. Any character could be useful, but I'm not asking that. I'm asking if they still serve a use as far as writers and DC are concerned, and I'm not getting any real argument on that point.

Basically I was trying to feel out if I was wrong and writers actually do something interesting with these. And it seems sadly I was right and they don't really. I never meant to ask if organized crime makes sense in a Superman story, but if organized crime ever is used or serves any purpose in modern stories modern writers have written.



No I didn't. I asked whether they do serve a purpose, not if they can. And no one has given any evidence that they do, only that they could.



Except it isn't a different matter, that's basically my interest, have any writers realized a purpose for them?



Yes, I can.

Okay, but I think if we don't discuss potential of these gangster characters or how they have been used better in other mediums, we are severely limiting the range of discussion on this topic.

[godisawesome]

Yeah… I think if anything, the discussion has shown that the mob villains are useful - they just aren’t used. They are neither redundant nor obsolete, their simply not a particular favorite of any creator.

[K. Jones]

Inter-Gang works best because they're international, have Golden Age callbacks and are pawns of higher, darker powers, spreading a poisonous gospel to the very people Superman is trying to help, arms dealers in the coming Super-War. And even some of the classic back alley "Goons" were used by your Luthors and Ultra-Humanites.

But there's always room for mobsters. Particularly high end ones, the kind that have more corporate links - there's plenty of crossover between criminal greed and corrupt politicians and corporations, trying to hire increasingly cleverer or more suped up hitmen to try to take out Lois Lane before she blows the lid off their operations. I generally found Bendis's run to be incredibly drawn out - peak decompression - and I didn't like that much because at the end of the day it's like Four Storylines and thus four clever ideas, four neat story concepts, four new big threats. But I thought the Invisible Mafia was probably the neatest concept. People are smart and will find ways to get away with things. Even with Superman around.

[NathanS]

So.... you want us to gaze into the future and tell you for 100% sure what future writers will do in order to prove if something can be useful.

Yeah sorry I left my time-space visualizer in my other TARDIS.

[Nero]

Mob villains should always be useful in some form or another.

Superman can't just punch organized crime away regardless of whatever powers he has at his disposal. Mobsters like Bruno Mannheim, Tobias Whale and Marisol Leone should all be just as untouchable as Lex Luthor because of the systematic power they each have at their disposal. They don't rob banks, they own the banks to funnel their money. The key advantage mobsters usually have over the costumed, outlandish villains is that they can easily blend into the canvas. Imagine the mayor of Metropolis working on behalf of Intergang or the commissioner of Metropolis Special Crimes Unit working on behalf of the Invisible Mafia. Point is, you can have mobsters set up shop with important figures that regularly effect the landscape of Metropolis thus making Superman to use his investigative skills as Clark Kent to get to the bottom of what's really happening behind the scenes.

You can even use the mob element to give supporting characters a story better than you could with a major super villain. A hit is placed on Jimmy Olsen for taking the wrong picture or a hit is placed on Perry for running the wrong article. Hell, Maggie Sawyer is set up for a crime she didn't do because she's too good at her job. Of course a gang war featuring Intergang, the 100 and the Invisible Mafia with the people of Metropolis being caught in the middle would always be welcomed. There's always ground to cover with the mob, you just have to follow through with it.

[Vakanai]

So.... you want us to gaze into the future and tell you for 100% sure what future writers will do in order to prove if something can be useful.

Yeah sorry I left my time-space visualizer in my other TARDIS.

No, I wanted an educated guess, not some 100% impossible prediction - if no one has used mob villains in years, no perspective writer has mentioned them, then the safe bet is kinda obvious ain't it? They're not going to see much of any use.

(seriously, you don't have to be snarky about it, I had to hold back my instinct to respond like an ass after reading that)

[Vakanai]

Mob villains should always be useful in some form or another.

Superman can't just punch organized crime away regardless of whatever powers he has at his disposal. Mobsters like Bruno Mannheim, Tobias Whale and Marisol Leone should all be just as untouchable as Lex Luthor because of the systematic power they each have at their disposal. They don't rob banks, they own the banks to funnel their money. The key advantage mobsters usually have over the costumed, outlandish villains is that they can easily blend into the canvas. Imagine the mayor of Metropolis working on behalf of Intergang or the commissioner of Metropolis Special Crimes Unit working on behalf of the Invisible Mafia. Point is, you can have mobsters set up shop with important figures that regularly effect the landscape of Metropolis thus making Superman to use his investigative skills as Clark Kent to get to the bottom of what's really happening behind the scenes.

You can even use the mob element to give supporting characters a story better than you could with a major super villain. A hit is placed on Jimmy Olsen for taking the wrong picture or a hit is placed on Perry for running the wrong article. Hell, Maggie Sawyer is set up for a crime she didn't do because she's too good at her job. Of course a gang war featuring Intergang, the 100 and the Invisible Mafia with the people of Metropolis being caught in the middle would always be welcomed. There's always ground to cover with the mob, you just have to follow through with it.

I agree Superman can't just punch organized crime away, and seeing how he tackles it would be extremely interesting - but that's not what we get. Instead the question of organized crime is unanswered as writers don't want to tell those stories.

[JBatmanFan05]

I agree Superman can't just punch organized crime away, and seeing how he tackles it would be extremely interesting - but that's not what we get. Instead the question of organized crime is unanswered as writers don't want to tell those stories.

Yes, writers and editors don't seem to find organized crime figures to be of much use in Superman comics, even if fans still do. We should all note that Lex operates or functions a lot like an organized crime figure though, it's just that he doesn't fit all those conventions like others do and we fans don't want to view Lex though that lens since he's Superman archenemy and whatnot. So it's possible Lex sort of cannibalizes the usefulness of mob figures in the eyes of writers and editors.

[Kuwagaton]

Yes, writers and editors don't seem to find organized crime figures to be of much use in Superman comics, even if fans still do. We should all note that Lex operates or functions a lot like an organized crime figure though, it's just that he doesn't fit all those conventions like others do and we fans don't want to view Lex though that lens since he's Superman archenemy and whatnot. So it's possible Lex sort of cannibalizes the usefulness of mob figures in the eyes of writers and editors.

I'm sure there aren't so many people interested in making those Superman stories, but it's also about knowing the audience. Look at what's being asked: "does anyone still want filler stories?" Well no, lol. It seems ironic because was built on punching gangsters but the skill it takes to really lean into that for a well liked story is probably hard to find

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm sure there aren't so many people interested in making those Superman stories, but it's also about knowing the audience. Look at what's being asked: "does anyone still want filler stories?" Well no, lol. It seems ironic because [Superman] was built on punching gangsters but the skill it takes to really lean into that for a well liked story is probably hard to find

Good points. Though almost every Golden Age superhero was built on punching gangsters, so a lot it for Superman specifically is just the shift to Superman becoming more and more a sci-fi superhero fighting aliens, mad scientists, monsters, giant monsters, etc. Changing with the changing conventions of science fiction as Golden became Silver and different media reinforced all the increased sci-fi bent, etc.

(Batman might have ended up a mostly sci-fi hero too, but just enough different forces in and out of comics kept him from remaining that way, forces came in to gradually ground or reground his stories again, Denny O'Neil, etc)

[Mistah K88]

Technically you said it gives Lois and the DP something to do instead of Superman?

I mean, you asked if mob villains were still useful. Building Metropolis the city itself and actually getting use out of the supporting cast is something that is useful for the series. Heck one of my favorite adaptations of superheroes period had mobsters creating supervillains as "playmates" for the superhero so that the actual money makers can do their thing while the superhero is fighting the villain of the day. Are you asking if villains other than world enders are exciting?

[Vakanai]

Look at what's being asked: "does anyone still want filler stories?"

I can't believe I still have to keep saying this - I never asked that, and when I say filler I don't mean low stakes stories - Superman fighting low stakes villains like mobsters/gangsters is not filler. Smashes the Klan had him fight racists and that's not filler. It's all about treatment and execution. No one wants filler because filler is boring effortless trash stories. But many people love lower stakes more personal/intimate slice of life stories, because that's not the same as filler.

I mean, you asked if mob villains were still useful. Building Metropolis the city itself and actually getting use out of the supporting cast is something that is useful for the series.

Except that these villains don't usually build out Metropolis or give more use to the supporting cast. That's what you want these villains to be used for, that's how you think they should be used, but when are they actually used that way?

Heck one of my favorite adaptations of superheroes period had mobsters creating supervillains as "playmates" for the superhero so that the actual money makers can do their thing while the superhero is fighting the villain of the day.

Spectacular Spider-Man right? Awesome show, does the mob villains like Hammerhead and Tombstone right, but also isn't Superman and his rogues.

Are you asking if villains other than world enders are exciting?

That's not what I'm asking - never have I asked are they exciting. I asked if they're still useful if writers seemingly never want to use them, or when they do have no interest in using their potential beyond schlubs Superman deals with quickly early on before leading to Darkseid or whatever. Very different question.