The fall of Krakoa - who's really to blame?

[Phoenix Raptor]

As per the title, who should really shoulder the blame for the events of the HFG and the fall of Krakoa?

Mystique? Whilst she was well and truly played by Xavier and Magneto regarding Destiny's resurrection, she then went ahead and found a way to bring her back to life herself. This was, of course, directly in conflict with what Moira ultimately wanted and set the Inferno events in motion.

Moira? Apparently her plan all along was to cure mutants, not help build them a place where they could all be together and safe. But now she's gone full genocide as evidenced in this year's HFG.

Xavier / Magneto? As a pair, they seemed to go out of their way to antagonise and lord it over the humans that they were the future and accepting it was the only option. As Vision said in the Civil War movie: "Our strength invites challenge" but mutants were challenged almost from their first appearance.

Sinister? Always playing his own game behind the scenes, it seems he's never really wanted Krakoa's success as a nation but simply as a means to his own ends.

Or my personal favourite, Cypher? He prevented Mystique and Destiny from killing a now-human Moira in Inferno (removing her powers stops her death from resetting everything, of course), which enabled her to go on the run and, ultimately, end up as a cyborg/android. She then went on to be the primary instigator of A.X.E by planting the idea of mutants as Deviants to Druig - without her interference there, it seems pretty unlikely that those events would've taken place. She then joins Orchis, spilling her guts to them and granting them a wealth of "insider knowledge." And let's not forget that, had Moira not killed her, it looked like Jean could've salvaged the HFG attack on her own - it explicitly states that Moira was the secret weapon that swung the battle in Orchis' favour when she killed Jean.

Had Doug not prevented Moira's death in Inferno, it seems very likely that the events of A.X.E and the HFG wouldn't have taken place (or certainly not in the way that they did, in the Gala's place) and thus Krakoa wouldn't have fallen at that point, at least.

Moira, it seems, has been the deciding factor but surely Doug's choice is the catalyst for everything that followed...?

Discuss.

[Nicoclaws]

Alternate Universe Omega Sentinel.

[Ambaryerno]

Everyone. Krakoa was a house of cards from the very start.

[DurararaFTW]

Omega Sentinel (for coming back from a future where mutants won a create an Orchis that can forestall that future), Mr Sinister (for working to sabotage the Quiet Council since it's joining and using Moira clone to reset the timelines constantly until he achieved a course of event most in his interest, Destiny (using her precog ability to steer everyone to a future where Mystique lives at the cost of everyone else and depowering and killing Moira, Mystique (reviving Destiny and hunting Moira down), Moira (joining Orchis) and last and least Doug Ramsay (letting Moura go).

Honestly Xavier and Magneto have a lot to answer for this isn't really it. Magneto has tried plenty of mutant nations before, none succeeded, The only real thing that set Krakoa apart and gave it an edge to unite mutantkind like never before was the resurrection tech that required bringing in Mr Sinister. They didn't choose to resurrect Destiny either nor hunt down Moira. Their memories were wiped after she was abducted and they were overruled by the Quiet Council afterwards. And Destiny and Mr Sinister made sure that the right future of their interest was the only allowed to see fruition, it's not like this is the natural cause and effect of Xavier and Magneto's decision making, Mr Sinister had already reset from dozen futures before Immortal X-Men even started where better decision making happened to attain one where Sins of Sinister could be realized. All Xavier and Magneto could have done is go against the whole Quiet Council and just murder Destiny as soon as she came back and that probably would have been detrimental to Krakoa's sucess too, Moira would have just ended up resetting likely.

[thechronic92]

Besides Orchis, it's Destiny, Sinister and the QC for being their enablers.

[ETMike1988]

Mutants for simply existing!

This post is sponsored by Orchis! We make a better future for humans!

[JB]

Omega Sentinel (for coming back from a future where mutants won a create an Orchis that can forestall that future), Mr Sinister (for working to sabotage the Quiet Council since it's joining and using Moira clone to reset the timelines constantly until he achieved a course of event most in his interest, Destiny (using her precog ability to steer everyone to a future where Mystique lives at the cost of everyone else and depowering and killing Moira, Mystique (reviving Destiny and hunting Moira down), Moira (joining Orchis) and last and least Doug Ramsay (letting Moura go).

Honestly Xavier and Magneto have a lot to answer for this isn't really it. Magneto has tried plenty of mutant nations before, none succeeded, The only real thing that set Krakoa apart and gave it an edge to unite mutantkind like never before was the resurrection tech that required bringing in Mr Sinister. They didn't choose to resurrect Destiny either nor hunt down Moira. Their memories were wiped after she was abducted and they were overruled by the Quiet Council afterwards. And Destiny and Mr Sinister made sure that the right future of their interest was the only allowed to see fruition, it's not like this is the natural cause and effect of Xavier and Magneto's decision making, Mr Sinister had already reset from dozen futures before Immortal X-Men even started where better decision making happened to attain one where Sins of Sinister could be realized. All Xavier and Magneto could have done is go against the whole Quiet Council and just murder Destiny as soon as she came back and that probably would have been detrimental to Krakoa's sucess too, Moira would have just ended up resetting likely.

I fully agree. Once Moira's powers were revealed and Sinister created the clones to reset the timeline, Xavier and Magneto were never truly in control again. Sinister would have been killed in Immortal #9 (or nothing in that issue would have ever happened actually) and Hope wouldn't have died, so his tainted DNA may have never been activated and Sins of Sinister would have been avoided. There were already problems within the QC but it was SOS that fractured it until it broke. And Destiny allowed it.

[Nicoclaws]

I fully agree. Once Moira's powers were revealed and Sinister created the clones to reset the timeline, Xavier and Magneto were never truly in control again. Sinister would have been killed in Immortal #9 (or nothing in that issue would have ever happened actually) and Hope wouldn't have died, so his tainted DNA may have never been activated and Sins of Sinister would have been avoided. There were already problems within the QC but it was SOS that fractured it until it broke. And Destiny allowed it.

But Xavier and Magneto's hybris allowing Sinister to thrive was a problem from the start.

[DurararaFTW]

But Xavier and Magneto's hybris allowing Sinister to thrive was a problem from the start.

Then we should blame them for embarking on this Krakoa project in the first place, not for it's fall, without Mr Sinister it's just another Asteroid M/Genosha.

[Rift]

Everyone made mistakes that lead to bigger problems, no matter how good their intentions, yadda yadda. Orchis is responsible for their own actions, yadda yadda. You can't blame the victims for yadda yadda. Now let's get to the fun parts: finger-pointing and drama.

I always felt like Mystique and Destiny ignoring Doug's advice and hounding Mystique is what pushed Moira over the edge. But it's really Emma who dropped the ball during Inferno; she's the one who told Mystique and Destiny about Moira, and encouraged their path. She's the one who insisted on no secrets between the Council members, but that also meant telling Sinister - AKA a man she KNOWS can't be trusted and would betray them eventually - about a powerful mutant. He's the one person you could have excluded.

How about Storm? Magneto specifically said "Hey, keep an eye on Xavier and keep him from martyring us all." What does she do? Make his last words all about her feelings, doesn't readily explain the situation to Xavier, and does absolutely nothing to honor Magneto's words or help Xavier see his mistakes before he makes them. She's not to blame for Orchis attacking or Xavier's decision, and she wasn't at fault for not being at the Gala. But she could have at least tried to prevent the problem she knew about. Like tell me Magneto had her actions in mind when he was speaking to her on his deathbed.

Next: Hellion. Why didn't he destroy Nimrod when he crashed the party? Was he too busy laughing at his old nuisances, Jubilee and Prodigy, getting pranked? Why didn't he just crumple Moira up like a paper bag? Why didn't he recreate the Force Warriors? Maybe he was just so blinded with rage at the adults, that he felt like they deserved to be abandoned by the people who were supposed to protect them. Maybe he wanted more mutants gone so he could be on a team again. Maybe he thought it was funny. But he has the charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent to end things here and now, but apparently doesn't.

[Triniking1234]

Apocalypse for leaving to bone his wife and leaving these morons to their own devices.

[Force de Phenix]

Fate? This is basically the story of the inhumans, but with the X-Men and their new politics.

[Master of Sound]

The triangle of Magneto - Xavier - Moira started the downfall, due to their drty secrets. Then Emma got involved and then Krakoa found out.

The Cypher and Krakoa, as the released the pit prisoners, breaking the laws.

Then the next demage was done by Sinister with his Sins, and of course Shaw, Beast Mikhail and Destiny, each playin nasty games for their own benefits and not for the good of their nation.

If this all did not happen, they could have had their eyes on the threats outside, like Orchis, who gave the finals push.

[lefthanded]

Everyone. Krakoa was a house of cards from the very start.

Boring answer but ultimately this is the truth.

The nation was built upon rotting pillars, so every little mistake/lapse contributed to the fall.

Xavier/Magneto's hubris (thinking they could control Sinister, Mystique, Moira, etc) certainly contributed to it.
The heroes putting their trust in the wrong people (Colossus, Beast) certainly contributes to it.
Emma/Shaw's self serving nature certainly contributed to it.
The villains behaving like villains certainly contributes to it.

Orchis is merely the people who have knocked over the house of cards, but if it wasn't them, someone else would have knocked over the cards.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Moira. Her motivations and actions are all over the place. It's like they all got really confused about what they were doing with the character. The storytelling around her needs some clean-up.