Justice for Sharon Friedlander - Karma of Joanna Cargill ?

[EldonMaguan]

Hahaha , most fans would just love that continuity-fix to all embarrassing moments of main-universe canon , but Marvel editorial would never allow it , especially since Hickman quit

[From The Shadows]

Thats how I feel about those involved in the Mutant Massacre (the real one) like Sinister and Scalphunter (who many seem to love now) who killed many morlocks, some children. Not to mention severly injuring those that tried to help like Shadowcat, Nightcrawler and Colossus. I remember people wanting Vertigo to be an X-Man years ago while being rabid at the mouth about Wanda. I agree in justice no matter how cool the character is or how popular. So its not just bias, no one seems to care about that mutant slaughter either where the Marauders are concerned.

[Will Evans]

Thats how I feel about those involved in the Mutant Massacre (the real one) like Sinister and Scalphunter (who many seem to love now) who killed many morlocks, some children. Not to mention severly injuring those that tried to help like Shadowcat, Nightcrawler and Colossus. I remember people wanting Vertigo to be an X-Man years ago while being rabid at the mouth about Wanda. I agree in justice no matter how cool the character is or how popular. So its not just bias, no one seems to care about that mutant slaughter either where the Marauders are concerned.

Unlike many of the listed (former) villains shown to kill in this thread, Scalphunter aka Grey Crow, has asked for forgiveness for his actions during the Utopia era.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Unlike many of the listed (former) villains shown to kill in this thread, Scalphunter aka Grey Crow, has asked for forgiveness for his actions during the Utopia era.

Lets not forget the fact that Scalphunter was under the thumb of Mr. Sinister, back when he wasn't some over the top dandy, but a real genuine threat. Greycrow could say no to Sinister, end up dead and cloned with no memory of it.

The 'I'm a mutant, thus oppression justifies my actions' should not be applied to a great number of characters, mind you, but Scalphunter and the Marauders are still special circumstances

[Celestialbodies]

But none of those who murdered innocents (or at least those who didn’t deserve it) purely for pleasure were ever successfully popularly voted onto the X-Men in order to be ambassadors representing their species tsk tsk tsk

Except Joanna LOL

Umm, there's a glaring omega level hole in this position, Jean was gleefully voted in and then forced herself onto the next team's iteration.

[wlfking]

Heard about this. Haven't read the actual issue or too many things with Frenzy in it. Wonder if it will ever be addressed. Has she brought it up at any time? During Judgment Day would have been a decent chance. I got to think she does think about it from time to time ever since she "switched" sides.

[Uncanny X-Man]

Perhaps Sharon was always really naughty, in a Nurse Ratched kind of way.

[Will Evans]

Did Magneto even learn that Frenzy killed Sharon we he took command of the Acolytes?
We know he crushed Senyaka for similar reasons to random humans, but Magneto knew and was friends with Sharon and Tom Corsi when they were in charge of the New Mutants.

[wlfking]

Did Magneto even learn that Frenzy killed Sharon we he took command of the Acolytes?
We know he crushed Senyaka for similar reasons to random humans, but Magneto knew and was friends with Sharon and Tom Corsi when they were in charge of the New Mutants.

I actually didn't even realize this was he same woman that was hanging around the X-Mansion until you said that. Damn!

[ohsnapulon5000]

Frenzy is totally dead rn. Isn’t that enough? She got splattered with some other heroes, the marvel
U is crazy. Bad guys happen all the time to people and that’s not being insensitive to Sharon friedlander but no one’s gonna use her in lieu of a juicy frenzy story including, probably, the “how the hell am I alive” story I hope she’s getting, soon. Let sleeping dogs lie with the transgressions of a character that had a very important heroic arc during IvX. Frenzy is an x-man all the way, in that way.

[whitecrown]

Thats how I feel about those involved in the Mutant Massacre (the real one) like Sinister and Scalphunter (who many seem to love now) who killed many morlocks, some children. Not to mention severly injuring those that tried to help like Shadowcat, Nightcrawler and Colossus. I remember people wanting Vertigo to be an X-Man years ago while being rabid at the mouth about Wanda. I agree in justice no matter how cool the character is or how popular. So its not just bias, no one seems to care about that mutant slaughter either where the Marauders are concerned.

Agreed. The hypocrisy is astounding. I actually liked Frenzy's tenure as an X-Man but it conveniently never addressed this story. About half of Krakoa deserves to be exterminated since it's composed of all these former villains with so much blood on their hands which they've never atoned for. Magneto, Sinister, Apocalypse, Mystique, Sabretooth, Selene, Sebastian, Emma, the Marauders, etc. Magneto is the only one whose redemption arc I ever believed in since under Claremont's pen, he actually had to atone. The others are flat out villains and have no business being grouped with the X-Men. It is very interesting how X-Fans were so quick to try and call for Wanda to be burnt at the stake while ignoring the actual lives claimed by many of their pet favorites who would never even be considered a hero on any other Marvel superhero team, except the X-Men which had devolved into a team of "former" villains by the 2010s. Apparently the fact that they all share a mutant gene means that all sins are forgiven on Krakoa because that still makes them better than "lowly humans."

Have people forgotten all the Morlock children who were slaughtered? Annalee's whole brood of children were killed and this wasn't just addressed in UXM but also in Power Pack. Besides the injuries sustained to Kurt, Kitty, and Piotr, all of which were nearly fatal, there was also Warren's injuries. Leech was left orphaned with Annalee's murder. Having an X-Men team named after some of their most bloodthirsty enemies who were responsible for an entire population's slaughter is especially tone-deaf like everything else about the current X-Men. Imagine minority groups renaming themselves the KKK or the Nazis as part of a movement to empower...yuck.

[Sutekh]

Have people forgotten all the Morlock children who were slaughtered? Annalee's whole brood of children were killed and this wasn't just addressed in UXM but also in Power Pack. Besides the injuries sustained to Kurt, Kitty, and Piotr, all of which were nearly fatal, there was also Warren's injuries. Leech was left orphaned with Annalee's murder. Having an X-Men team named after some of their most bloodthirsty enemies who were responsible for an entire population's slaughter is especially tone-deaf like everything else about the current X-Men. Imagine minority groups renaming themselves the KKK or the Nazis as part of a movement to empower...yuck.

One thing I thought was kind of cool was that at least one writer seemed to think the same, when it was written that many former Morlocks flat out refused to move to Krakoa, and that Emma used the funds from the Krakoan drugs to buy them space in a gated community in Arizona, so that they wouldn't have to live in a 'mutant utopia' that forgave people like Greycrow and Sinister. I found that to be a neat acknowledgement of how the resurrected Morlocks would not willingly breathe the same air as the former Marauders.

As for Frenzy, I'm a total hypocrite in that I love the character, despite her unforgiveable past. Same with Unuscione, a former Acolyte I adore, who once argued that a bunch of developmentally disabled children should be murdered because she was trying to kidnap them (under the assumption that 'special' meant they were potential mutant recruits for her side) and was all disappointed that they weren't all potential mutants, but kids with special needs. Just an ugly, ugly thing from that character, and not one that should be brushed under the rug, any more than Frenzy's killing of Sharon Friedlander. (The ideal solution? Joanna uses the Waiting Room to locate the afterlife presence of Sharon Friedlander and straight up asks her if she wants to come back, in a clone of her original body, pre-racebending. Surely there's a genetic sample of her available somewhere. A lock of baby hair her mom saved in a scrapbook, or something. A brush containing a few hair follicles, left over in her old room at the mansion, now stored in a box with her other belongings, after her room was cleared out. Stuff like that, that the X-folk could find without having to resort to one of their asspull options like 'one of six time-travellers goes back in time to get DNA' or 'a reality manipulator like Proteus shrugs and it just happens.' The afterlife conversation between Sharon and Joanna could make for an interesting Infinite issue. Sharon could go straight for the jugular. "Maybe I'd rather stay dead than give you the excuse to feel better about yourself for murdering me...")

[whitecrown]

One thing I thought was kind of cool was that at least one writer seemed to think the same, when it was written that many former Morlocks flat out refused to move to Krakoa, and that Emma used the funds from the Krakoan drugs to buy them space in a gated community in Arizona, so that they wouldn't have to live in a 'mutant utopia' that forgave people like Greycrow and Sinister. I found that to be a neat acknowledgement of how the resurrected Morlocks would not willingly breathe the same air as the former Marauders.

As for Frenzy, I'm a total hypocrite in that I love the character, despite her unforgiveable past. Same with Unuscione, a former Acolyte I adore, who once argued that a bunch of developmentally disabled children should be murdered because she was trying to kidnap them (under the assumption that 'special' meant they were potential mutant recruits for her side) and was all disappointed that they weren't all potential mutants, but kids with special needs. Just an ugly, ugly thing from that character, and not one that should be brushed under the rug, any more than Frenzy's killing of Sharon Friedlander. (The ideal solution? Joanna uses the Waiting Room to locate the afterlife presence of Sharon Friedlander and straight up asks her if she wants to come back, in a clone of her original body, pre-racebending. Surely there's a genetic sample of her available somewhere. A lock of baby hair her mom saved in a scrapbook, or something. A brush containing a few hair follicles, left over in her old room at the mansion, now stored in a box with her other belongings, after her room was cleared out. Stuff like that, that the X-folk could find without having to resort to one of their asspull options like 'one of six time-travellers goes back in time to get DNA' or 'a reality manipulator like Proteus shrugs and it just happens.' The afterlife conversation between Sharon and Joanna could make for an interesting Infinite issue. Sharon could go straight for the jugular. "Maybe I'd rather stay dead than give you the excuse to feel better about yourself for murdering me...")

I'm glad that history with the Morlocks was acknowledged and not brushed aside. It's a sad day when the Morlocks have more moral integrity than the X-Men (although that did tend to be the case for the majority of them and I'm glad Callisto used to call out Storm for her elitist attitudes towards the Morlocks vs X-Men, something the 90s show did as well), and understand that somethings and some people just can't be forgiven or absolved. The X-Men have come to the point that if they found out Hitler was a secret mutant, they'd gleefully rush to resurrect him and have him enter their circle. Is Callisto on Krakoa or did she stay in Arizona because she's also a character I can't see ever sharing breathing space with the Marauders?

I actually really did enjoy Frenzy in X-Men: Legacy and Age of X. I've read her past appearances as a villain, including this story where she killed Sharon but I don't think I ever reconciled that issue with her reformation in X-Men: Legacy all those years later. It reminds me of how in the 80s with Jim Shooter as Marvel's EIC, he refused to let Jean come home after The Dark Phoenix Saga because he couldn't believe that the X-Men would be able to eat breakfast with her every morning with the blood of billions on her hands. Until that was retconned to not be Jean, there was no letting her come back guilt-free. Clearly the Marvel of today doesn't feel the same way since their new policy for the X-Men seems to be that the more blood on your hands, the better, so long as it's human blood. Similarly with Rogue, even by the Outback era when she was more readily accepted by the X-Men, Storm still had to remind her that her actions with Carol Danvers were almost akin to murder and she would have to live with the consequences of her actions for the rest of her life. She wasn't going to get any pity from Storm or the rest of the X-Men for that. That's what made these characters feel real and grounded with their moral compasses.

I do like your idea of what Joanna could do to try and make up for her actions. I think redemption can generally be possible for most people, although not always all. I forgot that Unuscione was the one who wanted to slaughter all the developmentally disabled children. That's another thing I'd like to see if she's had a teaching moment since then and hopefully learned to be more tolerant. Her behavior there didn't seem any different from the bigoted humans who would treat Artie and Leech as outcasts.

[Sutekh]

Is Callisto on Krakoa or did she stay in Arizona because she's also a character I can't see ever sharing breathing space with the Marauders?

Callisto did have one dubious appearance in Marauders, IIRC, hanging out with Emma (who was sharing the book with Kate, Shaw, Pyro, Iceman and Ororo, IIRC), which I would have thought okay because they'd just made the point of Emma giving them money for a gated community in Arizona for the former Morlocks (which seemed like a tacit acknowledgement that they just weren't okay with Krakoa being so welcoming of Sinister and his Marauders), but then editorial had chosen to name the book 'Marauders,' which seemed like just poor taste. I mean, let's invite Kitty to hang and be chums with a team called the Nazis, that's totally cool, right? She can rip the arms off a Hugo Boss SS uniform and it'll all be swell. :/

(If I'm misrembering and it wasn't a Marauders appearance by Callisto, then nvm, I'm just being daft! I'm old, I blame it on all the goofballs we hep cats smoked / lead paint chips we ate / chlorinated water we drank as a kid.)

[DurararaFTW]

Callisto did have one dubious appearance in Marauders, IIRC, hanging out with Emma (who was sharing the book with Kate, Shaw, Pyro, Iceman and Ororo, IIRC), which I would have thought okay because they'd just made the point of Emma giving them money for a gated community in Arizona for the former Morlocks (which seemed like a tacit acknowledgement that they just weren't okay with Krakoa being so welcoming of Sinister and his Marauders), but then editorial had chosen to name the book 'Marauders,' which seemed like just poor taste. I mean, let's invite Kitty to hang and be chums with a team called the Nazis, that's totally cool, right? She can rip the arms off a Hugo Boss SS uniform and it'll all be swell. :/

(If I'm misrembering and it wasn't a Marauders appearance by Callisto, then nvm, I'm just being daft! I'm old, I blame it on all the goofballs we hep cats smoked / lead paint chips we ate / chlorinated water we drank as a kid.)

Callisto appeared in Hellions when they tried to murder Scalphunter on the Mutant Massacre anniversary and some of them died in the process of Scalphunter defending himself.