How can X-men comics do 2 sell like manga?

[salarta]

I have two new thoughts since I read newer posts.

The X-Men comics took a veeeery tiny baby step toward trying to understand what people want when they started doing the X-Men votes. They were very up front in saying they didn't expect Polaris to win the first vote, and that her winning it was a complete surprise to them. It shows they don't have their pulse on the interests of readership and they need to do more to figure them out. Unfortunately, instead of taking it as a learning moment, it seems they've taken it as just a PR gimmick where they begrudgingly have to do a few things if it's a result they don't actually want. Lorna was only in half the issues, and nothing of real substance character-wise happened with her in it. I'm not saying she didn't have good moments or anything, just that it was a far cry from what they would've done if it was a character they thought was "more deserving" of use. There's a clear mentality issue within the X-Men comics office where they just ignore things they don't want to hear and hope forcing things people don't want will make them happen.

The other thing is that I honestly think some people in the comics industry want it to remain a niche industry. My comparison point here is video games. They've become extremely popular over the past couple decades, but there's quite a lot of people who hate that. They think video games should be some small insular community where who is and isn't a "gamer" can be controlled with gatekeeping. They often insist that they've been "looked down on" in the past for having a "nerd hobby" and people who aren't "like them" shouldn't get to "invade their space." They also often trot out 80s and 90s advertising going exclusively to boys and claim there were nooooooooo girls playing video games because of that (and they're very wrong, I've chatted with plenty of women online that were huge into NES and SNES games when they were new).

I've never been a huge comic book fan so I don't know much, but I do know that comic books were viewed as "mainly for nerdy boys" at one point in the same way as video games. I think some people working in comics have a certain false nostalgia for that concept of comic books and the community around them, and they would actually be happier if there was less widespread acceptance of comics. Keeping outdated models and practices, refusing to progress and innovate in any real way, refusing to accept changes needed for various characters and concepts, it all boils down to an attitude that's meant to keep comics as a niche industry instead of growing it into its real potential.

When I say nostalgia seems like the biggest threat for good work, I usually say it in reference to Lorna, but realistically it's a problem for the entire industry by extension. It's really not just a problem for a single character. It's a problem for all of them. My focus is just on the character I care most about.

[Uncanny X-Man]

Like what they're doing now?
As it stands no one is being forced at gunpoint to purchase single-issue floppies. It's a purchasing choice. Just as some only buy and read digital. Others only buy trades. I do a combination of all three.

Also...omitting colours from the product isn't a guarantee that the price will drop...and they would be effectively removing a solid percentage of their creative force.

That said...there's no reason why they can't publish the black and white line work in trade volumes for additional revenue and for the consumers who are interested in that alongside the regular painted floppies.

Killing the floppies would be more about phasing out the direct market which has kept the industry alive yet shackled for the last 4 decades. Specialised comic stores could still exist but general bookstores would be the main way to distribute comics in volume form, with single-issue stories still to be distributed digitally.

Omitting colours would cost less at the printers and in terms of overhead costs.

I don't believe any of this will happen anytime soon but it would be interesting for Marvel to at least experiment with black and white comics and see how they fare commercially.

[Devaishwarya]

They used to sell Black and White trades...the Essential line I think it was called, and it was cheaper.

And again...for those who like floppies...no one is buying black and white at 3.99. And the decision to reduce the price even by a dollar is determinant on whether they will sell more than enough to offset the devaluation and maintain a healthy profit margin.

[Icefanatic]

Absolutely.
But...the average comic book fan/reader doesn't want or more accurately doesn't appreciate that progress. They say they do but when it's actually done they rail against it. How dare they make Iceman Gay! Why is the Phoenix Force being hosted by Echo? Why does Krakoa exist?

From a different perspective...you do have the ride and destination with the X-books...it's just longer and further away. For some...It seems very difficult to just enjoy the ride.

That's not progress, though. Turning Iceman into something he actually wasn't or making the X-Men into a Mutant Supremacy cult isn't progress. Just because something is moving doesn't mean it is progressing. By your reasoning, Marvel revealing Steve Rogers is actually Peter Parker's father or Jean Grey has been having a secret off-panel affair with Sinister most of her fictional life would be progress when it would really just be more B.S.

Marvel's(and DC's) writers have been complaining for decades that too many of the fans just see them as 'biographers' telling the 'true stories' of these characters lives. Well, I think they've finally broken most fans of that. They are definitely 'writers' not 'biographers' and they are certainly not telling the true story of anything anymore.

[ARkadelphia]

I don't think that will work so well as you think. They already did a 16-issues weekly story in Avengers: No Surrender, and the result was not good, especially the inconsistent art.

Really? I thought that storyline was awesome.

[Frobisher]

I don't think that will work so well as you think. They already did a 16-issues weekly story in Avengers: No Surrender, and the result was not good, especially the inconsistent art.

I was doing a *why not 2000AD?* skit.

[Nazrel]

That's not progress, though. Turning Iceman into something he actually wasn't or making the X-Men into a Mutant Supremacy cult isn't progress. Just because something is moving doesn't mean it is progressing. By your reasoning, Marvel revealing Steve Rogers is actually Peter Parker's father or Jean Grey has been having a secret off-panel affair with Sinister most of her fictional life would be progress when it would really just be more B.S.

Marvel's(and DC's) writers have been complaining for decades that too many of the fans just see them as 'biographers' telling the 'true stories' of these characters lives. Well, I think they've finally broken most fans of that. They are definitely 'writers' not 'biographers' and they are certainly not telling the true story of anything anymore.

Yeah, such "Progress", is abrupt, arbitrary, and nonsensical; at odds with what has come before, and who these characters have been established to be; rather then building on what has come before, and driven by who these characters are... you know, basic %$^#ing storytelling.

[Nicoclaws]

Are we back on that "iceman is not gay and making him gay makes no sense" bullshit ? There are at least 3 whole threads about that.

And complaining that writers are writing is very weird. They're definitely not telling a "true" story, but the characters having superpowers could have been a huge hint about that way before the last 20 years.

[ZuLuLu]

Create a new line of X-Men books that are separate from the 616, have straight forward continuity where every volume builds on the next and the make an animation that is as faithful as possible to those X-Men books.

[Nazrel]

Are we back on that "iceman is not gay and making him gay makes no sense" bullshit ? There are at least 3 whole threads about that.

As a data point of the overarching systemic failures of storytelling; bare minimum there should have been a character arc of personal self discovery; instead of, apropos of nothing, a telepath taking his time displaced younger self off to the side and dictating their sexuality to them.

And complaining that writers are writing is very weird. They're definitely not telling a "true" story, but the characters having superpowers could have been a huge hint about that way before the last 20 years.

It's not about realism, it's about internal consistency.
You can believe a man can fly! ... ... ... Except now they can't for no explained reason? Oh, they have a reason... but now they're back to flying again without explanation. Well at least I can appreciate the character development, they established so well the how's and why's of them being this idealistic, noble and very very anti violence person... and now they're remorselessly killing everyone.
Who is this person? How is any of this supposed to work? What are you expected to be invested in?

[Triniking1234]

Are we back on that "iceman is not gay and making him gay makes no sense" bullshit ? There are at least 3 whole threads about that.

And complaining that writers are writing is very weird. They're definitely not telling a "true" story, but the characters having superpowers could have been a huge hint about that way before the last 20 years.

The writers must not have done a good job if people are still complaining about it.

Where are the 3 - 4 threads arguing about Prodigy's sexuality?
Or Hellion's?

[Devaishwarya]

The changes/progress/development may not have come about in the way a mere handful of readers would have liked and they may not have resulted in the type of X-stories some wanted but...they did happen. And most for the better. Whether you personally agree or disagree/accept or don't accept is not the point, here.

And yet the complaints carry on. You want change and development and progress but you want and expect it exactly the way you want it, or not at all...which is utterly ridiculous. And why even if they do go the Manga way...you all will still be fucking complaining because there's just no pleasing some of you.

Yes, Bendis dropped the ball with Bobby's coming out...but it's a done deal...time to move on from the trauma or not...that's a personal choice and one the current writers don't care about because they like most readers have long moved on.

[Nicoclaws]

The writers must not have done a good job if people are still complaining about it.

Where are the 3 - 4 threads arguing about Prodigy's sexuality?
Or Hellion's?

I think Hellion's fan is adamant on his heterosexuality.

When Prodigy came out there were TONS of discussions about it and how it was done.

[Nicoclaws]

As a data point of the overarching systemic failures of storytelling; bare minimum there should have been a character arc of personal self discovery; instead of, apropos of nothing, a telepath taking his time displaced younger self off to the side and dictating their sexuality to them.



It's not about realism, it's about internal consistency.
You can believe a man can fly! ... ... ... Except now they can't for no explained reason? Oh, they have a reason... but now they're back to flying again without explanation. Well at least I can appreciate the character development, they established so well the how's and why's of them being this idealistic, noble and very very anti violence person... and now they're remorselessly killing everyone.
Who is this person? How is any of this supposed to work? What are you expected to be invested in?

You can go find the aforementioned threads to have this discussion about Iceman.

About Kate... as far as I remember she hasn't really been totally against violence. And her whole arc since the beginning of the Krakoa era as been about her feeling alienated and lashing out. I do agree with it being REALLY undermined by the fact we know mutants survived, but it's not out of thing air. The potential for her to go this direction was there. I don't like it either.

[Icefanatic]

The changes/progress/development may not have come about in the way a mere handful of readers would have liked and they may not have resulted in the type of X-stories some wanted but...they did happen. And most for the better. Whether you personally agree or disagree/accept or don't accept is not the point, here.

And yet the complaints carry on. You want change and development and progress but you want and expect it exactly the way you want it, or not at all...which is utterly ridiculous. And why even if they do go the Manga way...you all will still be fucking complaining because there's just no pleasing some of you.

Yes, Bendis dropped the ball with Bobby's coming out...but it's a done deal...time to move on from the trauma or not...that's a personal choice and one the current writers don't care about because they like most readers have long moved on.

For the majority of X-Men fans, Wolverine is by far the most popular, yet on these boards he is among the most reviled. The majority of X-Men fans don't believe the Iceman they read about for decades is gay or that the X-Men would be a part of something like Krakoa rather than fighting against it. They are not a 'mere handful', they are the majority and just because you can find majority in bubble environments like this doesn't make them reflective of the larger fanbase.