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  1. #61
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Fair point. Let's say that Sal Buscema can depict nuance, or various levels of emotional states.
    100%!

    I like to think he'd thrive were at his peak today. It's very different in execution, but there's some thing very manga (or perhaps there's something very Sal in Manga) about the way he places characters and is able to convey very complex emotions, often several per page, and character depth while also going big and over the top with it. He was definitely a master of his craft.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  2. #62
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I don't really think Traveller'd become one of the greats in Spidey's rogues or anything, but his exit left a whole lot to be desired and this was (still is, a bit!) a whole lot more confusing than anything else at the time.
    After a few years of reading marvel, when I'd collected most of the Clone Saga and the Michelinie era, and had dipped my toes into the rest of marvel, I came to the conclusion that the entire premise of Judas Traveller likely came from upper management handing the Spidey office a bunch Liefeld of X-Men comics and saying "that but Spider-Man."

    The vague threat, the promise of a longer time-spanning journey to now, powers that could effectively do anything the plot required, a mysterious back story, overpowering (to one degree or another) Spidey's existing major foes, speaking in vague terms to convey a dollar store philosophical bent, that outfit. It all reeked of the Image guys and onwards era X-Men.

    For better or worse (BETTER!), the Spider team hit on the more interesting idea of bringing back the clone and based their mega-arc around that, so the Traveller's journey abruptly ended.

    And yes, I also have a soft spot for old Judas. I tend to love the lame second stringers.
    Last edited by exile001; 09-27-2023 at 02:44 AM.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  3. #63
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    The vague threat, the promise of a longer time-spanning journey to now, powers that could effectively do anything the plot required, a mysterious back story, overpowering (to one degree or another) Spidey's existing major foes, speaking in vague terms to convey a dollar store philosophical bent, that outfit. It all reeked of the Image guys and onwards era X-Men.
    You gotta remember, that stuff was popular at the time. People loved it. It's only natural others would want a slice of it or to gravitate towards that style. I also remember Ghost Rider and Dr. Strange comics of that era played around with the same basic kinds of setups.

  4. #64
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    Thinking about this era, and I know he was used by Brubaker... but kinda wish Black Tarantula was brought back to the Spidey books as a villainous crime lord. Wasn't a big fan of his turn by Brubaker, thought he worked better as a bad guy.

  5. #65
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    Thinking about this era, and I know he was used by Brubaker... but kinda wish Black Tarantula was brought back to the Spidey books as a villainous crime lord. Wasn't a big fan of his turn by Brubaker, thought he worked better as a bad guy.
    To be fair, if someone revisits Black Tarantula as intended by De Falco, I'm game. But, IMO, someone has to do something with the character at this point. Even well into years of Spider-Girl, his character was mostly summed up by "sits down, is nigh unbeatable", and even the angle where he is sweet on Mayday is kind of a variant on his begrudging respect for Spider-Man, where he decides to stand down in respect for his guts.
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    To be fair, if someone revisits Black Tarantula as intended by De Falco, I'm game. But, IMO, someone has to do something with the character at this point. Even well into years of Spider-Girl, his character was mostly summed up by "sits down, is nigh unbeatable", and even the angle where he is sweet on Mayday is kind of a variant on his begrudging respect for Spider-Man, where he decides to stand down in respect for his guts.
    That's fine, I just think he works better as a villainous crimelord, who also speaks eloquently... wasn't really a huge fan of Brubakers interpretation and how he had him speak.

  7. #67
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    To be fair, if someone revisits Black Tarantula as intended by De Falco, I'm game. But, IMO, someone has to do something with the character at this point. Even well into years of Spider-Girl, his character was mostly summed up by "sits down, is nigh unbeatable", and even the angle where he is sweet on Mayday is kind of a variant on his begrudging respect for Spider-Man, where he decides to stand down in respect for his guts.
    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    That's fine, I just think he works better as a villainous crimelord, who also speaks eloquently... wasn't really a huge fan of Brubakers interpretation and how he had him speak.
    My headcanon is that Brubaker's Black Tarantula is actually another, older son of Defalco's Black Tarantula.

    -Pav, who loves this era and this thread...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
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    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
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  8. #68
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    That's fine, I just think he works better as a villainous crimelord, who also speaks eloquently... wasn't really a huge fan of Brubakers interpretation and how he had him speak.
    I read a bit of the post-Brubaker run in Daredevil and I agree. I just don't recall if that was a Brubaker thing or if Bendis used Tarantula first? I didn't much stick around Daredevil at the time, so I'm likely misremembering to begin with.
    My headcanon is that Brubaker's Black Tarantula is actually another, older son of Defalco's Black Tarantula.
    That would work surprisingly well.
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    100%!

    I like to think he'd thrive were at his peak today. It's very different in execution, but there's some thing very manga (or perhaps there's something very Sal in Manga) about the way he places characters and is able to convey very complex emotions, often several per page, and character depth while also going big and over the top with it. He was definitely a master of his craft.
    Is it possible to think Sal Buscema is a GREAT artist without actually liking his style? Well, I like his Spidey but I never warmed to how many lines he drew on people’s faces. MJ looked like she was 40 lol. That said, that’s completely subjective on my part and I can recognize his immense talent (unlike early Ramos which I just think is bad).

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    The funniest thing to me is that back in the day, when I began reading, I had the luck of the draw of all Spidey comics I managed to get my hands on to never feature an unmasked rendition of the Shocker. So I went "well, okay, he might look like that".

    And then I find out many decades after the fact that the guy has consistently looked like this in the mainline universe. I'm sure a long haired Shocker might have happened here and there at one point, he's been around for literal decades as well. But even the mustache? The flowery language?


    It was more likely some sort of joke since at that point no one had lost love for J.T. (well, DeMatteis probably did, but the word was out in the street to run as far away from stuff from the Clone Saga as much as possible) and DeFalco was just hurrying along with Greenberg's suggestions to explain him away. Still, for any first time readers (much like myself), you just went "so, why was that guy a big deal and then he was unceremoniously dropped like a stone"? I don't really think Traveller'd become one of the greats in Spidey's rogues or anything, but his exit left a whole lot to be desired and this was (still is, a bit!) a whole lot more confusing than anything else at the time.
    There were other mysteriously dropped threads from the Clone Saga. To me the two most annoying ones (and I don’t have pics handy, sorry) was (a) the Jackal tattoo on the assassin who shot Jill Stacy at the Forest Hills home, and (b) definitely the most annoying, Kaine beating up (and scarring!) all those Scriers to get back Baby May in Europe… and then it’s hand waved away in a throwaway line of dialogue as him “being dealt with”… an egregious example of either editorial interference or hotshot John Byrne coming aboard at this time and throwing his weight around (“what? Who’s Kaine?? Get rid of that! And the baby! Readers want the Aunt back!!”).

  11. #71
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    IIRC, at a later issue Jimmy-6 mentions that it's a Goblin tattoo and that they weren't out for him (it's just Norman The Osborn doing his thing... where even toothpaste becomes evil toothpaste that brainwashes people - yes, I know that's from a different run, but still, I feel it encapsulates perfectly well how awful and trite their reliance on the character had become). As for Kaine, yeah, much worse. While this didn't get anywhere near to the level of doing your OWN run where Gwen Stacy never died and married Peter like Spain (I believe? Or Argentina?) did, some countries printing the stories literally just started replying in their letter columns that baby May was literally (I know I just used this word, but it bears repeating) being raised by Kaine in Europe, and that this was "concerning".

    I wouldn't want to be those readers when they found out after Byrne's arrival that wasn't being touched in the slightest, and that then the next order of business was totem symbolism - and then you'd have the coup de grace in Millar's run having Gargan literally say Osborn killed Pete's kid, not too long after.
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

  12. #72
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I also remember Scrier (or the Scriers) were built up to be this mysterious powerful thing. There's even an issue where one of them fights Silver Surfer... then later we find out it's just some cult run by Norman.

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member JTait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I also remember Scrier (or the Scriers) were built up to be this mysterious powerful thing. There's even an issue where one of them fights Silver Surfer... then later we find out it's just some cult run by Norman.
    The Scrier thing did become a massive mess, but I believe that the entity that the Silver Surfer fought was actually Scrier himself. The Scriers who popped up all over the Spider-titles in the 90s were members of a cult based around Scrier, which ended up being taken over by Norman Osborn. They didn't actually have any superpowers and relied on tech based smoke and mirrors.

  14. #74
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I wouldn't want to be those readers when they found out after Byrne's arrival that wasn't being touched in the slightest, and that then the next order of business was totem symbolism - and then you'd have the coup de grace in Millar's run having Gargan literally say Osborn killed Pete's kid, not too long after.
    If May were alive Norman wouldn't have told Gargan.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daibhidh View Post
    If May were alive Norman wouldn't have told Gargan.
    If Norman is “good” now, it’s safe to say he would’ve told Peter the truth about Baby May and given her back if she was alive (probably not a baby anymore, even in Marvel time!).

    I have to agree that OMD probably retconned her very existence, as sad as that is.

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