Should Heracles remain a villain past the Amazons' origin story?

[Agent Z]

He was litrrally worshipped as a god of Slaughter and brutality

What he was worshipped as and what he actually did are two very different things.

he was saying we didn't get much mileage out of Ares / Mars. And by your logic, Circe and Cheetah should aldo be ignored.

You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say Arez should be ignored.

Is that what Diana stands for? That War is a grey area? I thiught one of the main themes of her story was that we need peace.

Diana can and has stood for a number of things, sometimes all at once. She stood for feminism while fighting the Nazis in her origin story

For someone who doesn't like her championing peace, you're surprisingly stubborn about Ares being her main villain.

Abuse isn't a gray area? Have you lived in the real world? Abuse is so often hard to evaluate, and the psichology behind it so complex and debatable.

Abuse is not a gray area. There is no defense or justification for abuse. It is not something that is needed or can be championed and whether or not something counts as abuse is an entirely different story. That is not what is being discussed here.

[SiegePerilous02]

In one specific incident, yes, in general? nah. the thing with the Amazons was one of his labors, not a habit.

He raped a priestess of Athena and subjugated cities, one of which because he was made to do 'woman's work'; I promise you he represents many forms of toxic masculinity and patriarchal rule.

He also killed his wife and kids, like he killed Hippolyta.

This is blamed on Hera cursing him to fly into a rage, but he flew into a similar rage as a kid and killed his music teacher. Him killing some women and pinning the blame for his own actions on another woman is an interpretation that would fit the subversions of the Wonder Woman mythos.

I really don't see why that matters.
He was the god of slaughter and brutality.

And the Amazons were his daughters and had a good relationship with him. If the Wonder Woman comics subvert the Amazon myth by making them the heroes and Hercules the villain, maybe Ares deserves a little justice too despite how the myths treated him compared to his more revered father and half-brother?

He should still be an antagonistic force, but not necessarily the main or most evil Big Bad of Olympus considering he was never the only toxic one in that group.

That's certainly not true of Ares / Mars pre Crisis. He was used immensely.

Beyond the Golden Age (where he was deliberately written by Marston to be a cartoonish buffoon), there isn't anything memorable from that period. Nothing on the level of Gods and Mortals at least, the story that ends with him seeing the light. He's a starter villain for Diana. Beyond that, he can be a recurring figure who is sometimes an uneasy ally, sometimes an antagonist, sometimes neutral, etc. But being firmly locked in the role as villain doesn't have much mileage in it.

Also, Hercules and Zeus as villains doesn't mean Ares can't be a villain.

Nobody is saying that he can't be a villain. Just that it makes more sense for the former two to be major unrepentant villains with no redeemable qualities, while Ares can be more complex

Is that what Diana stands for? That War is a grey area? I thiught one of the main themes of her story was that we need peace. What villain represents war as an unstoppable plague on mankind than a god worship for slaughter and brutality? In fact, what villain makes war seem inevitable?

The Amazons are ready and willing to go to war if they absolutely need to. They won't enjoy it (nobody sane does), and will try to defuse the event as much as humanly possible, but it's a sad reality that sometimes you have to fight for peace. War sometimes has a purpose, whereas abuse and misogyny never do.

When war gets out of hand, it also screws over EVERYBODY. Which Diana absolutely should fight against, but the everyday systems that oppress women specifically? That's more Zeus and Hercules by their actions.

Abuse isn't a gray area? Have you lived in the real world? Abuse is so often hard to evaluate, and the psichology behind it so complex and debatable. And that wasn't an argument for Ares not to be a relentless and catastrophic villain.

Abuse isn't gray. The complex dynamics between people can be gray and dysfunctional, but the action is bad with no gray area. War/battle might have a need, there is never any need or abuse of any kind.

[Alpha]

What he was worshipped as and what he actually did are two very different things.

it's literally the ideology that he stands for.

You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say Arez should be ignored.

You said other characters should be used as villains since Ares was immensely used in pre crisis. How does this mean something other than be ignored? If I'm saying he should be a full villain, and you say other characters should be used since he was already used too much (in your opinion)

Diana can and has stood for a number of things, sometimes all at once. She stood for feminism while fighting the Nazis in her origin story

For someone who doesn't like her championing peace, you're surprisingly stubborn about Ares being her main villain.

I didn't say Ares should be her main villain, I said that I don't understand why people are so lenient with him and don't want to take advantage of him being the embodiment of war, since Diana doesn't have a trully memorable warmongering villain.
I also didn't say I don't like championing peace, I said I don't think it should be one of her main themes, because I dislike the idea of Diana pacifying the world (making it less harmful), which is always used instead of pushing the people in this world to work towards self discovery and fulfillment.

Abuse is not a gray area. There is no defense or justification for abuse. It is not something that is needed or can be championed and whether or not something counts as abuse is an entirely different story. That is not what is being discussed here.

The definition of abuse is entirely subjetive and debateable, it's absolutely a grey area. But I'm not interested in discussing this right now so if you agree to leave that for some other time we can move on.

[marhawkman]

Abuse is not a gray area. There is no defense or justification for abuse. It is not something that is needed or can be championed and whether or not something counts as abuse is an entirely different story. That is not what is being discussed here.

Also this is kinda like trying to paint every god that ever did anything bad as villains. Pretty much all of them did bad stuff. Athena... Aphrodite... all of them....

[Primal Slayer]

I dont see why he shouldnt be a villain of the past. If they want they can split him into two, change the mythos and have him be Hercules twin. Have their cake and eat it as well, have one be the big bad of Amazons, the other a hero.

Or allow Heracles to be the big bad of the OG Amazons, favored son of Zeus, and have him be a grey character in "modern day" that Diana has to deal with as he's still under Zeus's protection.

[Alpha]

He also killed his wife and kids, like he killed Hippolyta.

And the Amazons were his daughters and had a good relationship with him. If the Wonder Woman comics subvert the Amazon myth by making them the heroes and Hercules the villain, maybe Ares deserves a little justice too despite how the
myths treated him compared to his more revered father and half-brother?

I've never heard about the amazons having a good relationship with Ares, other than him fathering two of their queens. Regardless, he still stands for what he stands. Saying that the god of brutality and slaughter has redeeming features is just plain old weird. He wasn't the god of revolution, or freedom, he was the god of slaughter and brutality. This is what he symbolized. You can abandon everything he stood for, but why stick with the historical idea of Zeus and Hercules then? I'm not arguing for greek myth recreation, I'm saying that using the myths without recognizing the religion is pointless
[quote]

Beyond the Golden Age (where he was deliberately written by Marston to be a cartoonish buffoon), there isn't anything memorable from that period. Nothing on the level of Gods and Mortals at least, the story that ends with him seeing the light. He's a starter villain for Diana. Beyond that, he can be a recurring figure who is sometimes an uneasy ally, sometimes an antagonist, sometimes neutral, etc. But being firmly locked in the role as villain doesn't have much mileage in it.

that's because some writers keep bringing up the Champion of Peace idea, but don't actually wanna engage with the debate in a serious manner. If they did, Ares wouldn't be written like someone that "likes war" nor as someone that "has a madness he can't control". Instead of that he would be written as someone that sees danger everywhere, conspiracies everywhere, thinks everyone is out to get him and is thusly he goes after others before they can get to him. He lives in a dog-eat-dog world. It's the cycle of gang culture in black youth. People are after you, and you aren't trying to deescalate, because you have good reasons not to.

(so ultimately I don't mean a villain. What I mean is a full on and intense enemy. Someone she will never defend because he is leading the world in he direction she wants to stop)

Abuse isn't gray. The complex dynamics between people can be gray and dysfunctional, but the action is bad with no gray area. War/battle might have a need, there is never any need or abuse of any kind.

What does it mean to abuse someone, what is and isn't abuse, why do people do certain people abuse others, when does punishment become abuse, etc

This is absolutely a gray area. Although clearly you guys are pinning this word "gray" on a very specific interpretation of it.

But to say that a character deemed abusive wouldn't be as complex as a character attached to war, that's absurd. Look at Hera of all people. She is incredibly abusive, and also abused.

[Perseus]

Which is a waste of the concept of war as this unstoppable parasite on the world.

Also, Hercules and Zeus as villains doesn't mean Ares can't be a villain.

I can actually list some pretty good reasons to go to war.... defeating a tyrant, freeing slaves, defending your home from invaders... No one 'wants' to go to war, it's not a fun thing but it is justifiable and can be necessary. Does abuse work that way? And Ares represents all aspects of war, including the bad stuff. So, why only do the bad and not look at the larger picture?

[Perseus]

it's literally the ideology that he stands for.

You said other characters should be used as villains since Ares was immensely used in pre crisis. How does this mean something other than be ignored? If I'm saying he should be a full villain, and you say other characters should be used since he was already used too much (in your opinion)

I didn't say Ares should be her main villain, I said that I don't understand why people are so lenient with him and don't want to take advantage of him being the embodiment of war, since Diana doesn't have a trully memorable warmongering villain.
I also didn't say I don't like championing peace, I said I don't think it should be one of her main themes, because I dislike the idea of Diana pacifying the world (making it less harmful), which is always used instead of pushing the people in this world to work towards self discovery and fulfillment.

I actually liked First Born in that role..... but whateves. There are other villains that need a push to be relevent and need a role to fill so we could just revamp someone else and keep Ares as someone not like your basic saturday morning cartoon villain.

[marhawkman]

I like Ares as a guy who's not an in-your face threat, but a plotting back ground enemy

[SiegePerilous02]

I've never heard about the amazons having a good relationship with Ares, other than him fathering two of their queens.

In some interpretations, he fathered four: Hippolyta, Antiope, Melanippe and Penthesilea. All with Otrera, the first Amazon queen, he was her consort and one of her patrons along with Artemis. He gave Hippolyta the girdle that Hercules stole and was not at all happy with Hercules for killing his daughter. Yet Hercules is hailed as the hero, and Ares is overall considered a bad guy in Greek myth. But then, so are the Amazons.

Regardless, he still stands for what he stands. Saying that the god of brutality and slaughter has redeeming features is just plain old weird.

You can think it's weird all you want, take it up with the ancient Greeks. They had him represent brutality and slaughter, yet he still killed Poseidon's son in retaliation for raping his daughter and was acquitted by the other Gods for it. Despite being viewed as the least redeemable God, he didn't commit any rapes, and at least somewhat supported empowered women like the Amazons.

From a modern viewpoint, whether they intended it or not, the Greeks characterized Ares as being less crappy than some of the other Olympians, so if WW comics were to treat him as somewhat more honorable (at least compared to his father), it'd be in keeping with how Wonder Woman flips a lot of the perspectives on the Greek myths

You can abandon everything he stood for, but why stick with the historical idea of Zeus and Hercules then? I'm not arguing for greek myth recreation, I'm saying that using the myths without recognizing the religion is pointless

Recognizing the religion has never been a priority for the Wonder Woman comics, from Marston to Perez, I don't see any great need for it to start happening now. People shouldn't be looking to American pop entertainment for serious fealty to religion. The Gods are treated as characters/tools for a story first and foremost, not objects of religious worship. Even in some of their ancient stories, some of the characterizations varied.

Also, if we were to lean into Zeus and Hercules being villains more, how would we be sticking with the historical ideas of them? Despite how their actions are viewed from a modern POV, they were not historically the villains.

What does it mean to abuse someone, what is and isn't abuse, why do people do certain people abuse others, when does punishment become abuse, etc

Again, that's mixing up the complexities of people vs the good/bad nature of their action. People can have their own internal reasons for abusing others. None of it matters in the end once they commit the abuse, they are the bad guy. Same with a punishment- once it is determined that a line was crossed, the action is rightfully determined to be bad

But to say that a character deemed abusive wouldn't be as complex as a character attached to war, that's absurd. Look at Hera of all people. She is incredibly abusive, and also abused.

Who's saying the abusive characters aren't as complex? Ares at most being a "lighter shade of black" compared to Zeus and Hercules wouldn't make the latter two less complex just because they have less redeemable moments (and even in Ares's case, the redeemable moments would be mild and few).

[SiegePerilous02]

I can actually list some pretty good reasons to go to war.... defeating a tyrant, freeing slaves, defending your home from invaders... No one 'wants' to go to war, it's not a fun thing but it is justifiable and can be necessary. Does abuse work that way? And Ares represents all aspects of war, including the bad stuff. So, why only do the bad and not look at the larger picture?

Yes. Ares is a bastard, but sometimes you need to call on him and what he represents to get stuff done. Athena is strategic defensive warfare in defense of the city, but sometimes it isn't enough.

Abuse, including misogynistic abuse, does not work that way.

I like Ares as a guy who's not an in-your face threat, but a plotting back ground enemy

This is why Ares in Rucka's first run is the best use of him as an antagonist.

And he looked hot while doing it.

[Gaius]

I do think he should be a bad guy but I'm also not interested in Heracles as an active member of the rogues gallery. I view him more as Hipoolyta's enemy more than I do Diana's.

I think he works when all his actions are set in the past who has long since been defeated by the time Diana's created.

[Felipe Silveira]

You can't be so affirmative about Greek mythology. In the end we have interpretations of these beliefs by ancient Greek writers, historians and philosophers.
Is a god of violent war also worshiped as a god of agriculture? That's what, 1000 years of history, I doubt the beliefs haven't gone through a lot of change.
As for Ares and the Amazons: I always found it strange that he is the number one enemy of the DC Amazons, he is their patron, their main deity (the other is Artemis), the only God to fight on their side in the war against Greece. Anyway, in the end this is a more famous interpretation than any other that can exist.

[Stanlos]

We got a preview of what that could look like in the early part of Allan Heinberg's " Who are you supposed to be, Wonder MAN?!" run. It is not something I need in the one WW title we have. Plus, I don't trust many writers to do full blown Gods interacting with the mortal plane. I feel it would be more akin to what we saw in New Poopy-2 where they are little more than generic superheroes. I will pass

[Alpha]

I can actually list some pretty good reasons to go to war.... defeating a tyrant, freeing slaves, defending your home from invaders... No one 'wants' to go to war, it's not a fun thing but it is justifiable and can be necessary. Does abuse work that way? And Ares represents all aspects of war, including the bad stuff. So, why only do the bad and not look at the larger picture?

When is inprisionment abuse? Many studies have shown the grievous impact of solitary confinement, is solitary confinement always unjustified?