Thoughts On How To Save Comics

[ed2962]

The answer is pretty obvious: You win back the audience that boosted American comics for decades of its formative years... young, straight white males. And this can include non-whites since they too bear the sins of being straight and male.

Solid, non-partisan writing with a lot less ID politicking, CRT, and DEI. Eye-catching, non-indie style art. Strapping heroes that youths would want to throw in with. Sexy heroines... and villainesses. Well-scripted action scenes. And less big events where the DCU/MCU chain pretends it's stronger than its weakest links.

There may be more minority characters than there was a generation ago, but I guarantee you there's little if any CRT or so-called DEI in modern comic book stories. Those terms have become a bogey man for ppl who can't even define them. You might not like certain art styles but strapping men and sexy women have never disappeared from comics, just click on new comics this week and look at the covers. I do agree that I could live with fewer events, but the Big 2 keep doing them because ppl keep buying them ( or rather stores keep ordering them ).

[Mister Mets]

There's something that the industry has lost for a long time and that's cartoons directed at kids.

For a very long time, there were superhero cartoons that brought in audiences. From the Super Friends to The Marvel Superheroes, a lot of us got into comics because of these cartoons. There are still some cartoons but we don't see stuff like Justice League Unlimited or Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes (which was cut short and replaced with a watered down version).

Manga generally pops off because of anime and adaptations. Most young people get into manga because of anime. Superheroes on the other hand rarely get the same level of exposure outside of big budget movies which arent necessarily directed towards kids.

The superhero movies aren't directed at kids, but kids see them. There's nothing that keeps ten year olds away from content as much as being told it's babyish.

There is a balance between making something that kids will enjoy and making something that adults can enjoy.

There is a lot of superhero content for kids, but much of it is compromised because it's not very good.

[shooshoomanjoe]

The answer is pretty obvious: You win back the audience that boosted American comics for decades of its formative years... young, straight white males. And this can include non-whites since they too bear the sins of being straight and male.

Solid, non-partisan writing with a lot less ID politicking, CRT, and DEI. Eye-catching, non-indie style art. Strapping heroes that youths would want to throw in with. Sexy heroines... and villainesses. Well-scripted action scenes. And less big events where the DCU/MCU chain pretends it's stronger than its weakest links.

Where is the proof that diversity is killed comics? Comics sales have been trending up since the late 90s.

[Tuck]

Where is the proof that diversity is killed comics? Comics sales have been trending up since the late 90s.

Unit sales seem pretty steady at 70-80 million except for a bump in the first half of the 2010s.

[skyvolt2000]

Where is the proof that diversity is killed comics? Comics sales have been trending up since the late 90s.

It does not exist much like DEI and CRT it's a boogey man term.

They want to point out the unsold copies of a POC lead book. While they IGNORE the piles upon piles of unsold books white guys have.

When folks scream that it means "I only LOOKED at who is on the cover and that is killing comics."

While it's "Yall don't know quality when a white lead book get axed."

Because they can never TELL you what is wrong with the actual contents of the book.

Here is the REAL funny part-as much culture war nonsense going on at DC and Marvel where so many have issues with diversity.

Everyone else who have diverse leads are NOT.

Image has 10 POC lead books.

Boom, Titan, Aftermath and Ahoy and IDW do as well.

Dynamite had given books to the likes of Barbarella-who has not had one in almost 40 years.

Bettie Paige, Elvira, Popeye, Sesame Street, 3 Stooges, Adventure Time, GI Joe, TMNT, My Little Pony, Darkwing Duck and other others got comics that NOBODY has complained about.

Folks who don't have a TENTH of what DC & Marvel have.

SO why is it okay for us to have now almost 50 solo issues of Elvira-who is doing nothing on tv or in movies. Yet it's doomsday if Ms Marvel who has a show and is in a movie and has tons of stuff in stores gets a comic?

[stillanerd]

This approach is potentially problematic, since it's easy for anyone to dismiss complaints as long as they can point to some bad people who share a view.

Something obvious can seem like a talking point since it'll be noticed by everyone on the other side.

Hence why "consider the source," or variations of that phrase, fall under the "genetic fallacy." Because they're being critical of the person who made the argument without actually addressing the argument itself.

Where is the proof that diversity is killed comics? Comics sales have been trending up since the late 90s.

Unit sales seem pretty steady at 70-80 million except for a bump in the first half of the 2010s.

There are few "asterisks" to keep in mind when looking at these charts, however.

Prior to 2020, the sales figures that were reported reflected retail orders not over-the-counter purchases. That's why, for the longest time, they were called "sales estimates." And they also limited those sales estimates to Norht America alone.

But notice how after 2020, we no longer see these estimates, much less the actual point-of-sale figures? Well, if you remember when COVID hit, everyone in the comics industry went "pencils down," including Diamond Distributors who, at the time, was the only distributor in the Direct Market. In response, DC Comics decided to adopt their own distribution model separate from Diamond. That's why new comics from DC come out every Tuesday instead of every Wednesday.

The end result is there are now three different distributors, including Diamond, that sell comic books on the Direct Market. As a result, ICv2 and Comichron were forced to adopt a different methodology for tracking comic sales. So today, instead of reporting sales estimates from just Diamond, they now report the point-of-sales from the ComicsHub system. And every sales report from ICv2 always adds this as a disclaimer:

These are unit and dollar sales rankings based on sales tracked at point-of-sale by the ComicHub system at stores selling American comics around the world. During the period for which these reports were generated, there were over 125 stores using the ComicHub system. As this is a small, non-random sample of over 3,000 stores selling American comics worldwide, these rankings may not be typical for all stores, but do represent a variety of locations and store emphases.

(Emphasis added)

That's only a 4% sample size. And again, it's not actually telling us how many units of each individual comic book were sold. Plus, a point-of-sale of a comic book could also include buying multiple copies of the same issue due to how many variants it had.

But what about this sales chart that saw a huge spike in comics in 2021 that ICv2 came out with?



Well, not only is that in response to folks buying habits once the COVID lockdown got lifted, what is now classified as "comics" aren't just comic books. It also includes graphic novels. And we mean graphic novels, that's not just trade paperbacks; that also includes manga and children's books like Dog Man--both of which have their own separate distribution models. If you dig a little bit deeper in the article which this came from, they have other charts which break that sales down even further:





And as we can see, "comic books," i.e. the floppies published by DC, Marvel, Image, etc. have more or less plateaued under $450 to $500 million since 2017. And you can forget about Digital Comics being the answer, BTW, because they haven't even cracked $200 million even during the COVID lockdown. It's the graphic novels--which again, includes Manga and YA books--that are the true money makers of the comics industry.

So based on this data, while comic books are not technically dying because of they've gone "woke," they're not increasing their readership because of it, either.

[Mister Mets]

Hence why "consider the source," or variations of that phrase, fall under the "genetic fallacy." Because they're being critical of the person who made the argument without actually addressing the argument itself.

I'm not a fan of the genetic fallacy. This also went further.

It's one thing to consider the source if you can make the case that a person making an argument is unreliable. It's going further than that to go after another person for making the same argument as a bad guy.

If someone's not trustworthy, it means they can't be relied on, not that they'll always be wrong.

[stillanerd]

I'm not a fan of the genetic fallacy. This also went further.

It's one thing to consider the source if you can make the case that a person making an argument is unreliable. It's going further than that to go after another person for making the same argument as a bad guy.

If someone's not trustworthy, it means they can't be relied on, not that they'll always be wrong.

But...that's kind of the point. Because in this case, there were folks dismissing what this particular retailer said out of hand because Ethan Van Sciver and other Comicgaters were talking this guy up. And the reaction online was, "See? This comic book shop owner is totally lying because Comicsgate supports him."

Then you had Mark Millar--not exactly someone who holds the same right-wing politics as Comicsgate does by any stretch--go, "Wait a minute. Instead of immediately dismissing this comic book shop owner out of hand, what if we talked to this guy and see what he actually has to say? Better yet, I'll also talk to these other comic shop retailers and see what they have to say, too."

[Gaastra]

Some tough words from this story.

"Kids are comics fluent.

"They're abuzz when a new Dog Man or Amulet drops. They love adaptations of books like Percy Jackson. They dig multiple Spider-People.

"A LCS should be as exciting to a kid as a candy shop or a LEGO store.

"LCS shouldn't be museums for the middle-aged."

https://www.comicsbeat.com/comics-ar...people-scared/

https://twitter.com/CrushingComics/s...450131041?s=20

[skyvolt2000]

But...that's kind of the point. Because in this case, there were folks dismissing what this particular retailer said out of hand because Ethan Van Sciver and other Comicgaters were talking this guy up. And the reaction online was, "See? This comic book shop owner is totally lying because Comicsgate supports him."

Then you had Mark Millar--not exactly someone who holds the same right-wing politics as Comicsgate does by any stretch--go, "Wait a minute. Instead of immediately dismissing this comic book shop owner out of hand, what if we talked to this guy and see what he actually has to say? Better yet, I'll also talk to these other comic shop retailers and see what they have to say, too."

People went off because that group tends to LIE or offer a one sided argument.

You can't continue to blame comics issues ONLY on POC, women and LGBTQA+ community all the time.

And that owner tended to be one of those folks. So why would I listen to him? Just because he can't sell diverse books where he is does not mean everyone else has that issue.

Marvel can't get rid of Miles because 5 stores can't sell his book but the other 2000+ CAN.

These owners need to adapt or retire.

[Username taken]

People went off because that group tends to LIE or offer a one sided argument.

You can't continue to blame comics issues ONLY on POC, women and LGBTQA+ community all the time.

And that owner tended to be one of those folks. So why would I listen to him? Just because he can't sell diverse books where he is does not mean everyone else has that issue.

Marvel can't get rid of Miles because 5 stores can't sell his book but the other 2000+ CAN.

These owners need to adapt or retire.

Exactly.

Folks said the same thing here about 12 years or ago when Brian Hibbs said he won't sell Marvel titles because they included free digital codes. The mantra really is adapt or die OR find something else to do. Complaining about what you're selling and criticizing the folks producing this stuff for vague or even wrong reasons seems like a stupid business practice.

In addition to this, certain players aren't unbiased and are prone to flat out telling lies to suit their agenda. It's beyond ridiculous at this point to blame wokeness for comic book sales decline when broadly speaking comics aren't any more or less political than before. As a matter of fact, how many minority titles does Marvel and DC actually even put out at the moment? It's not at all a large number and it's certainly not why sales might be declining.

To what Gaastra posted, some comic stores need to "wake up". It's main audience aren't young people but older guys who won't likely sustain the industry into the future. The bookstore market which is far, far larger should really be the target (which is something the comic companies have been trying).

And it has to be said and emphasized that the bookstore market is very, very diverse. As Arune Singh (formerly of Marvel said), the arguments against diversity doesn't work with bookstores because diversity has already won in that area. That's why a Moon Girl book can get to 50 issues but sell next to nothing in the direct market.

[shooshoomanjoe]

I don't think Glenn, the owner from that comic book store, ever blamed 'woke' for comics going downhill; it's just that the annoying comicsgate folks latched onto Glenn when his rant went viral. He's always talking about how the stories from the big two aren't entertaining anymore.

[skyvolt2000]

I don't think Glenn, the owner from that comic book store, ever blamed 'woke' for comics going downhill; it's just that the annoying comicsgate folks latched onto Glenn when his rant went viral. He's always talking about how the stories from the big two aren't entertaining anymore.

Well he needs to tell them to bleep off then.

Because folks are tired of that group coming out of the woodwork when store owners say those buzz words that wake them up.

One of the stores in my city is doing a sale with one they NEVER did in their 18 year history. Everything in the store 50% off for what amounted to 4 days. While doing buy 2 get 1 free and 50% off 2 and 5 dollar books.

They wanted to get rid of the Marvel and DC hardcovers and trades and it wasn't wokeness for the reason.

It was because Penguin and others make so many copies that sell to Amazon CHEAP. Which makes it HARDER for comic book stores to sell what they have.
And this makes it worst-my school got a donation of Marvel trades.

Wolverine coloring book
Deadpool vol 5
Secret Empire complete series hardcover SEALED
Amazing Spider-Man Clone Conspiracy hardcover SEALED

A $150 value of MINT books

At least 100 staff and students left with all 4 books.
With another 50 or so left with at least 3.
There were still Wolverine books when I left.

Lets talk Ollie's where guess what you can get trades and LOL 5 pack of comics for under 10 bucks. SOMEONE is buying comics and packing them in 5 packs and selling them.

Lets talk Midtown-how many sales are they going to have???? Folks forget that is who does the subscriptions for Marvel Comics.

This is the stuff the gators and their kind WANT to hear about.

They don't want to hear about all the different ways to get a comic. Wokeness has nothing to do with it. Because for as much as they hate Ms Marvel and diverse books-those are the main books I HAVE to go to a comic book store to buy because they tend to be harder to finder in the other venues. Especially the indy books and some I can't order on Amazon.

[kingaliencracker]

The issue with discounting or discrediting the transition to digital is that the core fanbase has been resistant to the digital forum when it comes to comic books specifically, and more or less provide no support to it.

There's no question it would be substantially cheaper to publish everything digitally versus print. And digital releases are certainly more accessible than comic book stores these days. But if the fans won't support it, then it's hard to change your model completely to digital. That's why graphic novels still sell so well - fans still get that physical book in their hands, but they're still saving money versus buying a single issue at 4 or 5 bucks a pop.

[Username taken]

Well he needs to tell them to bleep off then.

Because folks are tired of that group coming out of the woodwork when store owners say those buzz words that wake them up.

One of the stores in my city is doing a sale with one they NEVER did in their 18 year history. Everything in the store 50% off for what amounted to 4 days. While doing buy 2 get 1 free and 50% off 2 and 5 dollar books.

They wanted to get rid of the Marvel and DC hardcovers and trades and it wasn't wokeness for the reason.

It was because Penguin and others make so many copies that sell to Amazon CHEAP. Which makes it HARDER for comic book stores to sell what they have.
And this makes it worst-my school got a donation of Marvel trades.

Wolverine coloring book
Deadpool vol 5
Secret Empire complete series hardcover SEALED
Amazing Spider-Man Clone Conspiracy hardcover SEALED

A $150 value of MINT books

At least 100 staff and students left with all 4 books.
With another 50 or so left with at least 3.
There were still Wolverine books when I left.

Lets talk Ollie's where guess what you can get trades and LOL 5 pack of comics for under 10 bucks. SOMEONE is buying comics and packing them in 5 packs and selling them.

Lets talk Midtown-how many sales are they going to have???? Folks forget that is who does the subscriptions for Marvel Comics.

This is the stuff the gators and their kind WANT to hear about.

They don't want to hear about all the different ways to get a comic. Wokeness has nothing to do with it. Because for as much as they hate Ms Marvel and diverse books-those are the main books I HAVE to go to a comic book store to buy because they tend to be harder to finder in the other venues. Especially the indy books and some I can't order on Amazon.

That's the thing, the retailers are in the industry selling the books, they shouldn't be spending time signal boosting the negativity. If the complaints are around the business model then that's understandable but going hard on what you sell is a bit silly,

There are good comics from Marvel and DC (i havent kept up with DC but Daredevil, Hulk, Moon Knight, Thor, and X-men Red have been very good), if folks are tired of that stuff, I'd expect retailers to direct people to comics from Image and Boom (I will continue to sing the praises of "Something is killing the children" ecause it's an amazing book). I think a store owner should direct and promote the best stuff.

I know the retailer complaining isn't a comicsgater but he shouldn't really be so down on the stuff that he's selling because he's ignoring the good. In any business model, that's a recipe for failure.