Thoughts On How To Save Comics

[Tien Long]

Hi all. Just wanted to share with you this clip from Comic Drake's YouTube channel. It's entitled "Comics Need Saving: Manga's Winning Secrets:"



Comic Drake mentions a number of reasons why Marvel and DC are not getting new readers. Some reasons include:

1) Vast histories of many comics
2) Lack of marketing to non-comic book readers
3) The outdated and expensive single issue model
4) A need to move towards digital services

As frustrated as I was towards Comic Drake's points, I agreed with many of them. Here are my random thoughts on that:

-I definitely feel the need for American comics to follow the manga model. As a teacher, I see so many of my students reading manga. They collect the physical volumes and read comics on Webtoon or some other digital site. That frustrates me because American comics, Marvel, DC, and tons of other companies, have so many wonderful titles and stories that rival My Hero Academia, Demon Slayer, or Attack on Titan. At the remaining Barnes and Nobles stores in my area, young people crowd around the manga shelves while their backs are turned to the American comic ones.

I don't blame them. As Comic Drake mentions, $5.00 for one single issue of Batman vs. $7.00 for a Shonen Jump anthology or a multi-chapter manga volume. There is so much more value in the latter. It sucks, I know. The beauty of comics is that sometimes the best stories have just been one-shots. Action Comics #775 and G.I. Joe #21 come to mind. However, could such stories be part of a larger volume?

- I think there should be a greater shift to digital. In the last decade or so, I have moved completely to purchasing digital comics. I'll freely admit, I'm behind the curve since I still use Comixology and Marvel and DC have better services. Still, not needing to store and care for hundreds of issues is so convenient as I have all of my issues and TPB's available on my smart devices.

- Publishing comics as larger volumes and TPB's would help the creators of these books. I think a lot of us remember the #comicsbrokeme stories that came out earlier this summer.

https://www.vulture.com/2023/06/ian-...-broke-me.html

Aside from inequitable pay rates, what struck me were the deadlines for producing a single issue. Staying up 37 hours straight to get an issue out on time? Creators being hospitalized? I think shifting towards large volumes and TPB's would provide more time for these creators to catch up with comic production. A product doesn't have to be churned out every month.

Okay, apologies for the randomness and incoherence of my post. If I'm misinformed about anything, then I accept being corrected. Still, I would like to hear your thoughts.

How do we save comics?

[godisawesome]

The only one of the four premises I disagree with is the first; I don't take most "too much history!" arguments seriously for pop culture franchises anymore, since I think that whether the franchise is comics, manga, movies, video games, books or Tv shows, history has shown that modern escapism tends to pick up people whenever they happen to encounter it. Plenty of people tuned into Game of Thrones in the middle of its run, and plenty of Dragonball Z fans were first attracted by random episodes in the middle of important arcs.

The other three points, though, all makes sense, especially when you think about what makes sense for modern young readers. Kids today would be outpriced from being heavy comic consumers given their price tag for so few pages, and even most TPBs tend to be mildly worse deals than manga volumes. And kids would be more likely to plow through a library collection or through affordable market editions found at more common stores.

One shot stories, in my opinion, are probably best packaged with larger arcs as "breather episodes," or in anthology collections that are large enough to offset the feeling of redundancy.

I've hypothesized (though not done appropriate research into) the idea of reorganizing comics into "seasons" akin to tv shows, and possibly with a large portion of that season made available for free online first, and abandoning any performance judgement based off weekly releases, as well as decreasing weekly releases as well.

It might, for instance, be better to have a great writer and artist work on and release a 2-3 issue-length B&W comic online with only advertisements as its revenue generators for that section, while the other 4-6 issues worth of stories are hidden behind a paywall, and you only offer colored pages for an extra price.

[Totoro Man]

I remember buying Scott McLoud's "Reinventing Comics" when it first came out... and my first thought was...
"manga has already been successfully doing EVERYTHING you imagined or suggested throughout the entire book for decades."

and that was back in 2000!

I'm not sure that we CAN save comics. I think physical single issues are done for... much like the classic newspaper. I don't think they will survive into the next 50 years.

maybe US publishers should just copy the anthology approach from manga (like Shonen Jump) and charge a monthly service fee for access to a broad range of content. people could then read and browse content based on the subscription fee... and if they like something enough they can pay for a licensed copy of specific stories to keep on their devices for offline reading. (pretty much exactly what I do with Amazon on my Kindle)

you could have advertisements inserted in with the subscription content (kinda like television channels used to be) ... and if people want get rid of those advertisements, they could pay an extra service fee per month to eliminate that hassle.

I probably wouldn't buy single issues of Aqua Man or Blue Beetle... but if it were part of a monthly service package and I could read them if I wanted to... I might give it a try. this sort of 'magazine anthology' format might even help weaker titles get more exposure.

definitely a firm believer in digital copies. but I insist that people should be able to have the right of first sale and OWN stuff that they really like. most of my recent purchases have been in digital format. it doesn't cost too much, and it has allowed me to get thousands of pages of manga without having to worry about where I'm going to store it.

this is simply addressing the way comics are bought and kept by consumers. this doesn't address the myriad of reasons for why I believe manga offers better CONTENT for readers. that's for another thread.

[Mister Mets]

This is an important question right now.

For the hell of it, I'll comment on the video and then gives some thoughts on the larger question.

I certainly agree it's Marvel and DC's fault if readers feel that new comics are overwhelming. Telling customers to do more work is a stupid approach.

I don't know if advertising specifically is necessary, although this may be a semantic point about traditional advertising versus Marvel putting out a Youtube video on jump-on points. It may be more about earned media VS paid media. That said, paying influencers might not be a bad idea.

His comments about that do get me thinking of the old 90s idea of sell-outs, and that's not really part of the cultural conversation, but I do think that's ripe for a return. He's not close to the reason why, but it's a potential opening for someone to point out the insincerity of celebrities and micro-celebrities.

His math is quite off if he assumes Marvel or DC get every penny from a purchase, considering the shares that are guaranteed to retailers, as well as the costs of production and paying all the creative teams. Marvel is not getting four bucks a pop from every issue of Amazing Spider-Man someone picks up because an influencer was paid to talk about it.

The prodigious output is inevitable given how niche-ified comics are now (and frankly how niche-ified much of culture is.) The readers of Amazing Spider-Man are a bit different than the readers of Miles Morales who are a bit different than the readers of all-ages Spidey titles who are a bit different from readers of various nostalgia one-shots/ mini-series. And that's just within one line of comics.

There isn't the idea that a typical reader should follow all the titles, even within a franchise they like (IE- Batman comics will be made for different audiences.) This does complicate efforts to go from one sub-community to another, and say that a particular series is worth checking out. Historically, that hasn't made much of an impact. Something like Thor the Mighty Avenger has a cult following, but it never got high enough numbers to commission any follow-up.

I wonder if youtubers like Comicsdrake may be part of the problem, since they're serving their particular niche. Wizard had its pitfalls, but it helped keep fans abreast of what's going on in wider comics and was part of a much larger conversation than we have right now. At the moment, we've got Youtubers, podcasters, websites and projects like PanelXPanel for the cultural conversation.

A reality is that we have so many Batman books because they sell. And there is something to be said to having Batman books for different audiences. This may not be stated clearly enough, but there should be a general understanding among comic books fans that not everything is going to be for them.

That's distinct from requiring someone to read 8 monthly titles to understand what's going on in a major franchise like the X-Men. There should be some kind of compromise where someone can enjoy the X-Men without picking up Wolverine, Cable, New Mutants, X-Force, X-Factor, Deadpool, Deadpool Team-Up, Wolverine: Origins, Excalibur, Generation X and two mini-series every month, but at the same time they shouldn't dump all the other titles so that more people will read the X-Men. There could be a wider understanding that some people will check out Deadpool, and some of these people might check out Deadpool satellites, but this won't hinder enjoyment of an X-Men title.

An obvious shortcoming of talking about waiting for the trade is digital piracy, and that just complicates the discussion, but it's important to address when we're figuring out attitudes by fans and potential customers.

Manga is simple because there is mostly one way to read a series, starting with Volume 1 and going forward. It may be a bit different if there are jump-on points with series that go on very long, but this is something we really can't do in comics. There's no expectation that someone read Batman from the beginning. We can appreciate that Grant Morrison will have a different take than Frank Miller or Tom King or Jeph Loeb on Batman, and that David Mazuchelli will be a different artist than Tim Sale or Neal Adams or Jim Lee or Adam Kubert.

There's a fundamental flaw in the comparison. There's an idea that if you like Naruto, you'll check out the one series. I point I'll make is that I've been aware of Naruto for a while. I read two and a half years of the Shonen Jump Viz anthology. I kinda liked it. I'll likely read it again. But offhand, I don't know who wrote it or drew it. I know there's a sequel about his son, but I don't know if it's the same creative team, or even if there's a creative team. Is it the work of one person who is writer or artist? Have any of them done anything of significance outside of that universe? Did anyone quit mid-project and get replaced? I don't know.

Obviously, there are manga talents who have worked on multiple projects and transferred their followings to a new series, but I don't know about them to the extent I know about Western comics or movies or even television. There's a major difference in how to deal with IP. What works for a creator-owned series like Bone or Saga isn't necessarily transferrable to decades old series.

I know manga has many creative teams on something like Gundam, although that would suggest that this guy's explanation of what applies in that medium is a bit limited.

The calls to get rid of floppies neglect that it is a revenue stream. Marvel and DC make money from customers who double-dip.

His call for anthologies as monthlies aren't going to make as much money. There are people who would pay four bucks for 20 pages of Batman, who won't pay ten bucks for a hundred pages of Batman, Nightwing and Batgirl, often by creative teams they've never heard of. Eight minutes into the video, this guy isn't really clear that he understands that quite a few fans care about who is writing and drawing the comic. Si Spurrier and Mike Deodato on The Flash would get a different response than a different creative team.

I'm suspicious of the comments of giving B and C-tier characters a chance to shine. I'm not sure Marvel and DC can push characters. It comes down to the extent fans jump on board.

Shonen Jump has a lot of series, but there's no hint about why I should care about all of them. A translation also has different business concerns. Presumably the creative teams have been compensated in Japan, and the American market is a bonus. This also makes the pricepoint on digital manga different. American comics have to figure out how to compensate the creative teams mainly though the Anglosphere (including Canada and the UK) while anglosphere sales of manga add to the Japanese market.

One of my best friends is really into Yugi-oh cards, but that's not a worthwhile extra to anyone else.

Complaining that DC's Walmart anthology was doomed to fail because it's not in the same universe ignores that Naruto and One Piece aren't in the same universe either.

The problem with physical comic stores isn't just due to a shortage of readers. Plenty of readers buy digital, or get trades at a discount from Amazon or a service like Mail Order Comics. And the elephant in the room remains piracy.

Frankly, I think more can be done against piracy. I suspect a Youtuber won't want to mention that because that may be some of how his fans get a hold of the comics, and if he tells them that they're immoral thieves, or provides advice on Marvel and DC can work against it, he may alienate some of his viewers.

Comic stores could benefit from focusing more on the community aspect, so that's something they're doing that they may need to lean into more.

[ed2962]

Part of the problem is the outdated business model, I think Drake should have gone more into how, Marvel/DC isn't selling comics to the end reader, they're selling to the retailer. So, much of what Marvel/DC does is to get the store to increase their orders. Once they've done that the companies have made their money. It doesn't matter to them if an induvial store is stuck with 10 copies of Before Watchmen:Mothman or 20 variant covers for Eternals #1.

[ed2962]

Comic stores could benefit from focusing more on the community aspect, so that's something they're doing that they may need to lean into more.

Maybe, but I dunno...When I got back into comics guys at the store were usually nice to me, but I can remember reading tons stories from other people who stated that their LCS was quite off-putting. Alot of staff and regulars had their little cliques that would be not very welcoming to either new readers or women.

[godisawesome]

Most of the local comic shops I’ve gone to in the last few years have really been high-end gaming shops that just happen to have comics as a side hustle - lots of miniatures, RPGs, cards, and usually hosting tournaments and such.

Those can be a little cliquey, since the games and tournaments usually aren’t starter friendly and mildly expensive… but then again, it’s likely the sheer replay value of a solid Magic the Gathering deck still makes it a better deal than a $5.00 comic that might very well have been over-order due to a company using speculation-friendly, collecting-exploiting shenanigans to buff up store demand.

[KurtW95]

I've watched some of this guy's videos. The problem is he defends some of the practices that are hurting comics. Namely rewriting history and canon. You've got to keep characters on model. And gaslighting people about it ticks me off. I think a good portion of comic writers today have never read a lot of the characters they write. Which makes the ongoing stories about characters into a game of telephone where rather than it the statement changing somewhat (which people should try to avoid), it's more like someone changing the whole statement to mess it all up or not listening and making a statement up because the person doesn't care. I also think that creators who keep doing badly get way too many chances. You want to sell lot comics? Don't try the same action over and over and think you're going to get different results. We also need an honest comics media that gives impartial reviews. Problem is, so many people in comics media want to work in comics, so they give only glowing reviews to people they wish to befriend and work under. Another giant mistake that the comics industry does now; completely ignore older writers who are beloved and wrote iconic stories and want to write but get no offers. Malpractice of the highest order. Digital sales numbers should also become public. And there should be a way to record how many copies sell to actual people from the stores. And let stores send back comics that don't sell and get some money like they used to. Renumbering relaunches should be be kept to a minimum. Just look how many new volumes starting with number 1 we got in the last century and compare it to how many have happened these past ten years. And maybe assign some creators to books based on blind pitches. Christopher Priest talked about how he used to writer Spider-Man and Wolverine and Daredevil. And then suddenly he was only offered black characters. And we see this all the time now. Greg Pak was writing the Hulk and had a run that people loved. Now, he is pretty much only writing Asian characters. And worse, he had short story in a recent Marvel Voices comic. It's good that we got GI Joe and Wolverine runs from Larry Hama when we did. Because today, he would only be offered Shang-Chi. Also, deconstruction and MCU-style quirky meta jokes should be avoided. Lots have characters have been deconstructed so much that there is little of them remaining. Deconstruction can be fine when such a practice is few and far between an the character hasn't had much of it. Reminds me of the I Love Lucy episode where they kept trimming the Christmas tree to make it even and the Christmas tree ended up tiny. And regarding the MCU meta humor, the characters should treat what's happening like they think it's happening and not like they need to talk about how stupid it is and wink to the readers.

[Radioactive Zombie]

You also have to remember that the way manga is serialized in Japan is far, far worse than the Big Two's deadlines. I've read somewhere that Shonen Jump demands something like double-digit pages every week.

[Mister Mets]

The only one of the four premises I disagree with is the first; I don't take most "too much history!" arguments seriously for pop culture franchises anymore, since I think that whether the franchise is comics, manga, movies, video games, books or Tv shows, history has shown that modern escapism tends to pick up people whenever they happen to encounter it. Plenty of people tuned into Game of Thrones in the middle of its run, and plenty of Dragonball Z fans were first attracted by random episodes in the middle of important arcs.

The other three points, though, all makes sense, especially when you think about what makes sense for modern young readers. Kids today would be outpriced from being heavy comic consumers given their price tag for so few pages, and even most TPBs tend to be mildly worse deals than manga volumes. And kids would be more likely to plow through a library collection or through affordable market editions found at more common stores.

One shot stories, in my opinion, are probably best packaged with larger arcs as "breather episodes," or in anthology collections that are large enough to offset the feeling of redundancy.

I've hypothesized (though not done appropriate research into) the idea of reorganizing comics into "seasons" akin to tv shows, and possibly with a large portion of that season made available for free online first, and abandoning any performance judgement based off weekly releases, as well as decreasing weekly releases as well.

It might, for instance, be better to have a great writer and artist work on and release a 2-3 issue-length B&W comic online with only advertisements as its revenue generators for that section, while the other 4-6 issues worth of stories are hidden behind a paywall, and you only offer colored pages for an extra price.

A project like Game of Thrones is different because someone can start at the very beginning. Frankly series like that are meant to be enjoyed that way, rather than someone starting in the middle.

But while the final outcome is 73 episodes, that's still different from a shared universe with so many different series, and some characters popping up multiple times.

Part of the problem is the outdated business model, I think Drake should have gone more into how, Marvel/DC isn't selling comics to the end reader, they're selling to the retailer. So, much of what Marvel/DC does is to get the store to increase their orders. Once they've done that the companies have made their money. It doesn't matter to them if an induvial store is stuck with 10 copies of Before Watchmen:Mothman or 20 variant covers for Eternals #1.

If Marvel or DC rip off stores by tricking them into buying something readers don't want, the stores will figure it out quickly enough.

[Mister Mets]

Maybe, but I dunno...When I got back into comics guys at the store were usually nice to me, but I can remember reading tons stories from other people who stated that their LCS was quite off-putting. Alot of staff and regulars had their little cliques that would be not very welcoming to either new readers or women.

I was thinking in the context of the decision to host card tournaments, and have events like that.

Plenty of stores are cliquey and unwelcoming, although I suppose if they're able to afford it, it suggests they're doing okay.

You also have to remember that the way manga is serialized in Japan is far, far worse than the Big Two's deadlines. I've read somewhere that Shonen Jump demands something like double-digit pages every week.

This is a good point. We want artists and writers to have fair working conditions.

If we want pretty much any Marvel or DC artist to make $100,000 a year based on ten issues of content, we would need a system where they get $500 a page. That gets relevant for price points and what levels of print runs would be acceptable.

I've watched some of this guy's videos. The problem is he defends some of the practices that are hurting comics. Namely rewriting history and canon. You've got to keep characters on model. And gaslighting people about it ticks me off. I think a good portion of comic writers today have never read a lot of the characters they write. Which makes the ongoing stories about characters into a game of telephone where rather than it the statement changing somewhat (which people should try to avoid), it's more like someone changing the whole statement to mess it all up or not listening and making a statement up because the person doesn't care. I also think that creators who keep doing badly get way too many chances. You want to sell lot comics? Don't try the same action over and over and think you're going to get different results. We also need an honest comics media that gives impartial reviews. Problem is, so many people in comics media want to work in comics, so they give only glowing reviews to people they wish to befriend and work under. Another giant mistake that the comics industry does now; completely ignore older writers who are beloved and wrote iconic stories and want to write but get no offers. Malpractice of the highest order. Digital sales numbers should also become public. And there should be a way to record how many copies sell to actual people from the stores. And let stores send back comics that don't sell and get some money like they used to. Renumbering relaunches should be be kept to a minimum. Just look how many new volumes starting with number 1 we got in the last century and compare it to how many have happened these past ten years. And maybe assign some creators to books based on blind pitches. Christopher Priest talked about how he used to writer Spider-Man and Wolverine and Daredevil. And then suddenly he was only offered black characters. And we see this all the time now. Greg Pak was writing the Hulk and had a run that people loved. Now, he is pretty much only writing Asian characters. And worse, he had short story in a recent Marvel Voices comic. It's good that we got GI Joe and Wolverine runs from Larry Hama when we did. Because today, he would only be offered Shang-Chi. Also, deconstruction and MCU-style quirky meta jokes should be avoided. Lots have characters have been deconstructed so much that there is little of them remaining. Deconstruction can be fine when such a practice is few and far between an the character hasn't had much of it. Reminds me of the I Love Lucy episode where they kept trimming the Christmas tree to make it even and the Christmas tree ended up tiny. And regarding the MCU meta humor, the characters should treat what's happening like they think it's happening and not like they need to talk about how stupid it is and wink to the readers.

I definitely agree on the importance of a better comics media, although I don't think it's fair to say that everyone's overly nice because they want to work in comics.

Other people may have different taste, so it's wrong to assume that people are lying when they say they like something.

It also seems that if a big section of the comics media is obviously corrupt, there's an opening for others who are honest. However, comics media works if people can make a living doing it, which is difficult in reporting on a niche hobby.

I agree that relaunches are a problem. One problem is that it makes it harder for a reader to find a particular issue. There are six versions of Amazing Spider-Man #8. Two of them are written by Dan Slott. There are also five versions of Amazing Spider-Man #25. Two of them are illustrated by John Romita Jr. Three of them have key scenes with Norman Osborn.

[shooshoomanjoe]

You can't sustain a product on a dying media like print. They have to update their product for the time. According to Newswire, WebToons gets 100B views a year so the readers are out there.

[godisawesome]

A project like Game of Thrones is different because someone can start at the very beginning. Frankly series like that are meant to be enjoyed that way, rather than someone starting in the middle.

But while the final outcome is 73 episodes, that's still different from a shared universe with so many different series, and some characters popping up multiple times.

You're missing the point; GOT, and even a much more child-friendly show like Avatar: The Last Airbender, are single story arcs that vastly outsize the majority of comic arcs, and thus are both examples of how much more other epics demand detailed, in-the-now information to be picked up by audience members to get what's happening than any single comic arc does, and that most people are attracted to escapism by the spectacle and "fun" or "grit" first and foremost and then can *easily* pick up enough info to keep going.

No modern first time audience has even been run off a book by the Robin appearing in that story being #3 or #5, or even by oblique references to past events; what matters is what the current arc is dealing with, and when an audience member's view grows beyond that, it usually end sup either being enthusiasm for lore or harmless apathy since they just want the next story.

[ed2962]

If Marvel or DC rip off stores by tricking them into buying something readers don't want, the stores will figure it out quickly enough.

Will they though? A lot of stores are just barely hanging on. I think they're hoping for the next big relaunch to be this generation's Lee X-Men or McFarland Spiderman, but I think that's simply not going to happen again.

[ed2962]

I was thinking in the context of the decision to host card tournaments, and have events like that.

Plenty of stores are cliquey and unwelcoming, although I suppose if they're able to afford it, it suggests they're doing okay.

Oh, ok. That makes sense.