Characters Who Play Way Out of Their League

[Sharpandpointies]

The thing is, they do have speed. At least in comics (I'm not talking TV shows or movies).

Comic Book Peak Humans and people edging into that range have a long, laundry-list of speedfeats that are simply impossible for real-world humans to replicate. They are explicitly superhuman by our real-world standards.

Their handspeed is invisible, their whole-body movements are nothing but a blur.

They casually and consistently catch multiple arrows from the air, sometimes behind themselves. Sometimes they even do it by reverse-Robin-Hood - catch one arrow, stop the second one by sticking the first one in the way so that the second one splits it down the middle. While chatting.

They blitz groups of a dozen or more normals and take them all out in a bare few seconds.

Given that Batman would be nothing more than a dark blur to normals, a dark blur moving so quickly that people simply can't keep up that is also laying down explosives, flash-bangs, smoke, and throwing knives while he moves, it's hardly surprising that people trying to track him fail utterly. Or hit all of that armor he wears, rather than his chin.

Movies do a pretty poor job of showing this, of course.

Is it silly that Batman has managed this sort of thing for decades and decades without taking one bullet in the face? Sure - odds get kind of long after a point. But the idea behind it is not. The idea is really no more silly than dudes who can turn to steel, or shoot laser beams from their eyes, or control magnetic force and electromagnetic energy with their mind.

[Captain Smith]

Like I said, they have to have speed. Ollie in Arrow clearly had some. However, if they stand still, they need to have some method of sensing incoming rounds, esp. from a distance. Thus, they are superhuman. Didn't Cap get shot down by a sniper, IIRC?

You have to sense your opponents and the incoming, that takes a power set. Does Vulture have that? The quote seems to imply he does. There are all kinds of implicit powers, for example, Supes could see distant planets in other systems - how did he do that with speed of light limitations on incoming visual cues. When he used to see a train crash on another system's planet was it 34 years ago? Odin destroyed distance galaxies in his fight with Set but what kind of FTL energy was he putting out, or he destroyed them in a million years. Kind of off topic but discussing the implicit power operations in some plots.

The OP was about being out of your league. Thus, if you are not implicitly superhuman as peak humans are, you are out of your league if you just have wings and flap around with your head out.

[Shellhead]

Did I miss something with The Vulture? Why do people keep acting like Jimmy Olsen would stomp him? OK he's not the green goblin but he regularly go's one on one with spiderman it's not CIS/SvF/PIS the guy is trouble for spiderman he has hurt him many times just because he is not a A list bad guy doesn't mean me or you can beat him.

Is he faster than a speeding bullet? No? Then how is he going to hit Spider-man? This is a crucial question for any Spider-man villain who isn't tough enough to take a punch from Spider-man.

[Sharpandpointies]

Is he faster than a speeding bullet? No? Then how is he going to hit Spider-man? This is a crucial question for any Spider-man villain who isn't tough enough to take a punch from Spider-man.

In fairness, and not talking about the Vulture, one doesn't need to be faster than a speeding bullet to hit Peter. One needs to be fast enough to hit Peter.

Bullets travel in straight lines. Attacks don't always do this, and attacks also adjust to another person's movement, tracking them somewhat. Attacks can also include combinations, feints, and so forth. This is where skill comes in.

Granted, Parker is a high-end bullet-timer with combat precog, so it IS really hard to hit him. But someone fast enough, skillful enough, who isn't necessarily moving at mach 2, can still hit Peter. You don't need to be Quicksilver, though obviously that helps. ^_^

Peter does suffer from a lot of PIS, mind. ^_^ But setting that aside, one doesn't need to be an out-and-out superspeedster to land hits on Peter.

[grampagen]

...where did the perception that Vulture is just some guy with wings come from? His suit enhances his stats in addition to flight.

[Sharpandpointies]

Forum needs a like button. Lots of good clarifications coming in (including the one about Dracula versus the Surfer, I DID see that). ^_^

[Powerboy]

If you do shoot modern rifles, unless the target has speed, some pre-cognitive sense a 'normal' exposed body part is only protected by PIS. That's part of the comic game, I grant you to have some 'normal' folks in play.

That's why I never can take Batman, Robin, the Vulture, Ollie, etc. seriously. It's like the Ollie show where ninjas were going to take over the city and Ollie and friends called out the citizens to help with clubs, etc. Now, if this was in Dallas or Memphis - the turn out would be with AR-15s. There more than 20 million in civilian hands. The last time ninja or traditionally armed folks faced mid 1800's weaponry in Japan, it didn't go well.

Similarly in one of the last Harry Dresden books, Harry was giving out shotguns to plain ol' civilians in Chicago to fight demons. Oh, give me a break. I thought Butcher knew his stuff but that was ridiculous.

However, that doesn't mean I don't like shows like Arrow or a good book with Batman, unless it goes BatGod.

Yeah, sometimes I'm in that kind of mood. I remember an episode of "Arrow" where one of the League of Assassins said of bows that they were such useless inventions that he wondered why they were ever invented as he parried all of the arrows from a compound bow. I must have been in a mood because I blurted out, "Yeah. Let's see you try that in the real world, fantasy boy." I don't mean some staged feat under ideal conditions against a bow with the lowest possible pull either. But it's necessary for the illusion of the person who supposedly isn't superhuman to compete and win. It's not just Batman or the Vulture. It's a tradition of Tarzan and countless characters who allegedly are not superhuman but do superhuman things or nobody ever gets lucky and shoots them in the head or heart.

[Powerboy]

Is he faster than a speeding bullet? No? Then how is he going to hit Spider-man? This is a crucial question for any Spider-man villain who isn't tough enough to take a punch from Spider-man.

I certainly am not saying the Vulture is bullet fast. But Spider-Man has always been his main opponent and he does manage to hit Spider-Man and take hits from him. Sure, when it comes to hitting the Vulture, Spidey is holding back as he does against most of his opponents. Doctor Octopus even realized eventually how much Spider-Man had always held back when he punched him. But speed is another issue. Sure, it's unrealistic for an old geezer without powers to be that fast. That the suit enhances his speed is a good explanation for why he doesn't just speed his way out of prison when he gets caught. But, even without that explanation of the suit, he's just one in a long line of, "He's a non-super powered human being. This doesn't make sense."

[K7P5V]

Always felt silly to see Kingpin actually throw down with Spider-Man. Daredevil and Punisher, sure, but he's really got no business grappling with Spidey. Granted, he's usually got goons hired for that.

I know, right?! I mean, the same could be said about Kingpin going up against Captain America

[Beadle]

I know, right?! I mean, the same could be said about Kingpin going up against Captain America

Classic Kingpin is in a nebulous space above CBPH strength-wise, and is fast enough to consistently land hits on Daredevil (though clearly not as fast as Matt). Him tangling with Cap is perfectly fine.

Spidey, by contrast, is significantly faster than Matt (able to dance through automatic gunfire) with insane damage soak and strength in the Class 20-25-ish range. One non-pulled punch from him should end Kingpin, and he’d have no problem landing that punch due to the massive speed disparity.

[Sharpandpointies]

I remember an episode of "Arrow" where one of the League of Assassins said of bows that they were such useless inventions that he wondered why they were ever invented as he parried all of the arrows from a compound bow. I must have been in a mood because I blurted out, "Yeah. Let's see you try that in the real world, fantasy boy."

I hit the same sort of thing watching a whole lot of martial art fight sequences these days. But it's media, it's entertainment, it's unrealistic.

At least the comic book stuff gives a reason of 'these guys are just that good' and gives them other feats of speed, strength, skill, and durability to back it up.

As for Classic Fisk...yeah, he was always presented as considerably tougher and stronger than humanly possible (for a comic book human), and even surprisingly quick. He uses a 500 lbs wrecking ball as a weapon. He squashes someone's head between his hands while monologuing. His idea of how to deal with Parker's speed is to knock down the building they're in, and walk out of the rubble. He stands in the middle of 8 martial arts masters (all of them armed) and takes them all out in seconds without suffering a single hit. An early Spider-man (so about Class 5) punches him in the face repeatedly and Fisk literally laughs it off. Daredevil exhausts and physically injures himself trying to hurt Fisk.

Fisk has a vault he doesn't bother locking. Why? The door is too heavy for anyone else to open, it's the best lock around. Well, not really; Matt Murdock - a guy who can with effort flip over a car - almost busts his gut and barely manages to open it enough to get in. But Fisk? He swings it open one-handed.

To paraphrase Pendaran, Classic Fisk was less 'peak human' and more 'the thing that destroys Peak Humans'.

[choptop]

Yeah, sometimes I'm in that kind of mood. I remember an episode of "Arrow" where one of the League of Assassins said of bows that they were such useless inventions that he wondered why they were ever invented as he parried all of the arrows from a compound bow. I must have been in a mood because I blurted out, "Yeah. Let's see you try that in the real world, fantasy boy." I don't mean some staged feat under ideal conditions against a bow with the lowest possible pull either. But it's necessary for the illusion of the person who supposedly isn't superhuman to compete and win. It's not just Batman or the Vulture. It's a tradition of Tarzan and countless characters who allegedly are not superhuman but do superhuman things or nobody ever gets lucky and shoots them in the head or heart.

To be fair he would probably be able to do that in the real world because that's he's nrom lol

[Captain Smith]

Bullets travel in straight lines.

Not to be argumentative but this is the internet. Bullets do not intrinsically not travel in straight line if well designed. However, they are all subject to dropping towards Earth due to gravity. Thus, the adjustments and calculations for long distance shots. Next, crappy barrels can cause bullets to key hole, fly sidewise, with less than accurate results. Shotgun patterns disperse but not like one would think. It is a straight line (except for gravity drop) but not necessarily exactly parallel to the barrel. Amusing is shotgun pellet rounds fired from a rifled slug barrel, which give you a large donut shaped pattern.

Anyway, Spidey should carry a Glock, with his speed, he could have drawn and shot Vulture while Vulture was flapping his dentures. Haha.

If Vulture was smart he would sell his tech to Boeing or Airbus and retire.

[Sharpandpointies]

Not to be argumentative but this is the internet. Bullets do not intrinsically not travel in straight line if well designed. However, they are all subject to dropping towards Earth due to gravity. Thus, the adjustments and calculations for long distance shots. Next, crappy barrels can cause bullets to key hole, fly sidewise, with less than accurate results. Shotgun patterns disperse but not like one would think. It is a straight line (except for gravity drop) but not necessarily exactly parallel to the barrel. Amusing is shotgun pellet rounds fired from a rifled slug barrel, which give you a large donut shaped pattern.

I'm pretty sure you got my meaning; but since, as you say, this is the internet, it appears I need to clarify.

Bullets are 'dumb' munitions. Their trajectory can be altered by circumstance, but not 'in response and reaction to perceived defenses'.

Bullets do not adjust themselves to the defensive movements of their target while in flight. Bullets do not suddenly loop around to hit someone on the side of the head when otherwise coming in from the front. Bullets do not hit something that parries them, grab it and drag it down or otherwise force it aside to continue with other attacks. Bullets do not form patterns of attack that are practiced and come rapidly from different angles with the idea of overloading/avoiding defenses. Etc.

However, in melee all of the above (and more) applies.

This is why someone who can actually dodge bullets can do so without moving at the speed of said bullet, and can be threatened by someone who is also not moving at bullet-speed. Like, Peter doesn't move at mach 2 or anything, but he certainly dodges rifle bullets. And are we going to argue that someone with Peter's speed couldn't possibly punch Peter in the face because Peter can dodge bullets flying at mach 2? That's clearly not the case.

[Postmania]

Anyway, Spidey should carry a Glock, with his speed, he could have drawn and shot Vulture while Vulture was flapping his dentures. Haha.

I don't really see why. We have to remember these are comics with characters designed a certain way with certain appeals. Might as well say Spidey should have used his Culture vessel to end Vulture before he started.