Just how “Lawful Good” should the Bat-Family be?

[Frontier]

If you go back to the early days of Birds of Prey, Barbara was actually financing her operation by stealing money from Block Buster.

When it comes to evil vs good, if you go by the DnD definition of allignement, this axes mostly rates how selfish/selfless you are, killing isn't really such a big factor, since even good characters in DnD are going to kill a lot.

I would still say Babs' moral code can be a strict as Bruce's at times.

[godisawesome]

I feel like they should be a bit more hardline, to some degrees. Like Batman can wind up rather unsympathetic because of how biased he can be at times with how he enables some more morally unscrupulous characters to operate which tends to color his interactions with characters like Jason, Talia, Harley, Ghost-Maker, etc.

For instance Bruce should really be more consistent and actually enforce his whole "no murder" policy and put a firmer line on the sand that he will not work with killers.

So he should just cut of all contact with Talia, her choice to be the leader of the League means her values are completely irreconcilable with his own. Shadow War was pretty bad about this where Geo-Force has a point that Talia is a gigantic prick but we're still supposed to be on her side because she's Damian's mom. At that point Talia should be treated as nothing more than just another villain.

He should better maintain his values. Sure it makes him very obstinate but I feel like he's more respectable if keeps to his values more and less of his own biases. So he should be less enabling of characters like Ghost-Maker and Harley who really toe the line with their murderous impulses but he just lets them be with only some scrapes cause friendship or whatever. If they can get in line fine, but if they can't they get driven face-first into the pavement.

The issues with his more lethally-inclined associates is partly why I think it doesn’t really make sense to portray any Batman who maintains contact with any of them as being “Lawful” enough to find Catwoman’s thievery unacceptable (or even problematic); a much more stern and hardline Batman, like you said, could find Catwoman’s thievery problematic, but would likely spend most of his time hunting down Jason whenever the rogues weren’t around, and Talia would likely never be even an ally of convenience again outside of extraordinary circumstances.

Now, I still think it would make more sense of young Batman were very stern but also extremely aggravated an bitter about Gotham’s corrupt cops and politicians, and eventually transforming into a less stern figure as part of a changing strategic goal on his part… but I also think that editorial should have a bit more of a strategic insight into how he should treat characters who kill.

[Frontier]

It would probably help if they could actually write Jason and his development consistently rather than just reset his character and relationships whenever it suits them because they have no idea what to do with him otherwise.

[Hypestyle]

Don't beat up litterbugs. But do chastise them.

[bat39]

My own POV is that it seems to vary greatly from era to era, with older works being far more likely to be purely lawful good, but the 80’s and 90’s introducing a bit of a wild card element both by embracing corrupt cops and city officials as foes and (subtly) painting the image of a younger Batman being more strict and an older one being more pragmatic.

And I love the idea of both the transition from strict to pragmatic for the family and that Bruce himself has some very hidden but sensible prioritizations that lean towards True Good rather than Lawful Good.

Like… I personally feel like a younger Batman should be more likely to oppose Catwoman as a thief in general, particularly when she herself is positioned as less choosy of her targets, but I also really like how Doug Moench’s and Loeb had there be semi-transitional tries where he reluctantly chooses to ally with her against a greater foe (and it’s not just that she’s hot), and I really like the two modern stories where they’re “established” and Bruce is willing to outright employ her professionally to steal or otherwise obtain precious information (like both Jon Ostrander and Solly Fisch had her do.)

I also feel like in modern times it’s a mild narrative necessity that if Bruce is investigating robberies committed against rich people, than those robberies should contain a violent element or be committed by another rich *******; modern Batman is so often rightfully focused on violence and murder that him being sidetracked by something an insurance claim could pay for doesn’t really work anymore.

But I also feel like certain Bat-family members sort of require the moral code be portrayed as True Good over Lawful Good just by being present. Like, if no one in the family is trying to throw Jason in jail, and as long as Helena Bertinelli or Damian can have even a small, old kill count in their backgrounds… then no one in the family should really have a problem with Selina stealing stuff and being a part of the family as well.

Jason especially muddies the issue, since I think most of his fans prefer a more mellow portrayal of his relationship with the family even if he’s still racking up a modest body count; as someone who thinks he *does* work as a mildly estranged but still not antagonistic member of the family, I just really can’t take the idea of an older Batman or his kids going “But Catwoman’s a criminal!” anymore.

I think Batman's focus has typically always been on violent crime, be it muggings, organized crime, or supervillain rampages. After all, its a violent crime that birthed him.

The fact that Selina has mostly not been a particularly violent criminal, or at least not a murderer, is a major factor in why he was always 'soft' on her compared to the other villains.

And you're right that Batman grows a little less rigid over time. By the time Jason-as-Red Hood and Damian are on the scene, Catwoman is no longer really a "criminal", or at any rate, is one that the Bat-family is okay with.

I suppose after 10-15 years of watching the Joker murder thousands of people, or after the tenth League of Assassins attack on Gotham, you just stop caring that much about the odd jewel theft or you ex-sidekick offing a few crooks.

Except when they do them, and let's face it, some incarnations of Bruce have absolutely no problem beating the crap out of people, stalking them, spying on them, blackmailing, or otherwise terrorizing people to get what he wants.

Dick, Tim, and Barbara are far more "less criminal" in their actions.

Jason and Damien can frequently tip the line into outright evil in their pursuit of doing good.

With the possibly exception of the late Golden Age/Silver Age and Adam West show, Batman and the Bat-family have always technically been criminals. 90% of what they do on any given night is illegal, even when they do it with the tacit support of the GCPD (or Gordon at any rate). But even as they're breaking laws, they're still on the side of the law, so that's where the "Lawful" part comes from. Its kinda like how the CIA technically breaks US law and all manner of international laws, and violates the US Constitution, but it does so in the name of preserving the sanctity of the United States, its laws and Constitution.

I feel like they should be a bit more hardline, to some degrees. Like Batman can wind up rather unsympathetic because of how biased he can be at times with how he enables some more morally unscrupulous characters to operate which tends to color his interactions with characters like Jason, Talia, Harley, Ghost-Maker, etc.

For instance Bruce should really be more consistent and actually enforce his whole "no murder" policy and put a firmer line on the sand that he will not work with killers.

So he should just cut of all contact with Talia, her choice to be the leader of the League means her values are completely irreconcilable with his own. Shadow War was pretty bad about this where Geo-Force has a point that Talia is a gigantic prick but we're still supposed to be on her side because she's Damian's mom. At that point Talia should be treated as nothing more than just another villain.

He should better maintain his values. Sure it makes him very obstinate but I feel like he's more respectable if keeps to his values more and less of his own biases. So he should be less enabling of characters like Ghost-Maker and Harley who really toe the line with their murderous impulses but he just lets them be with only some scrapes cause friendship or whatever. If they can get in line fine, but if they can't they get driven face-first into the pavement.

I think this is in line with how Batman was Pre-Crisis. Most superheroes, really. The moral ambiguity/relativism came in later, and to some extent is reflective of the moral ambiguity and relativism of the real-world in recent decades, and the last decade in particular.

[Aahz]

With the possibly exception of the late Golden Age/Silver Age and Adam West show, Batman and the Bat-family have always technically been criminals. 90% of what they do on any given night is illegal, even when they do it with the tacit support of the GCPD (or Gordon at any rate).

Actually Batman was officially deputized at some point, and I think that remained the case till COIE (through the entire Bonze age).

And give that he is a member of JLA and has saved the world on multiple occasions, that makes more sense than Gotham city officials constantly wanting to hunt him down...

But even as they're breaking laws, they're still on the side of the law, so that's where the "Lawful" part comes from.

I think in case of Superheros lawfull has to mean that they are working with the police, and that their villains and up in court.

A "chaotic" hero, would usually not do that.

[marhawkman]

Actually Batman was officially deputized at some point, and I think that remained the case till COIE (through the entire Bonze age).

And give that he is a member of JLA and has saved the world on multiple occasions, that makes more sense than Gotham city officials constantly wanting to hunt him down...

Yeah, doesn't make sense for one of the world's greatest heroes to be a wanted fugitive....

[Bat-Meal]

I think the alignment of these characters varies depending on both the writer, and the time period in the character's life.