Doomsday (Post Crisis) vs Thor Odinson

[Cronus]

I always felt like coming to a clear conclusion about a character's level of speed was more a DC thing and rarer to be that precise for Marvel speedsters much less describing with any consistency, any level of superspeed with those guys.

I wonder how this would turn out speed equalized minus BFR?

[Shai-Hulud]

All speed stuff aside, Thor is going to have an easier time pounding on Doomsday than Superman did. With Mjolnir, Thor's fists never have to come in contact with DD's bony spikes. Even for Superman/Thor-level durability, that's gotta hurt.

[Alan2099]

Captain Morgan hit it correctly with his post (I was misremembering). An actual speedster, but not a ridiculous one (like, not any meaningful fraction of lightspeed). Mach 4 or 5 sounds fine.

I realize Thor has a few feats way higher than this. Thor also has an absolutely staggering amount of times he's not even portrayed as anyone with any kind of speed, and it seems that under most writers, the fact that he originally had some kind of superspeed is completely forgotten, rather than ignored for the purposes of writing a story (PIS).

Were I to go back and do it again, I would likely rule differently. How? Not sure - I would need to weigh ALL of the evidence again. But this time I wouldn't go for any kind of 'find a middle ground' stuff. Thankfully, that's not my business any more. ^_^

I always disliked doing Mod Rulings, preferring that people come to a consensus.

I always try to split the argument if it gets that close.

"If we assume Thor has super speed, he can do this... but if he doesn't he can still do that."

[Captain Morgan]

Captain Morgan hit it correctly with his post (I was misremembering). An actual speedster, but not a ridiculous one (like, not any meaningful fraction of lightspeed). Mach 4 or 5 sounds fine.

I realize Thor has a few feats way higher than this. Thor also has an absolutely staggering amount of times he's not even portrayed as anyone with any kind of speed, and it seems that under most writers, the fact that he originally had some kind of superspeed is completely forgotten, rather than ignored for the purposes of writing a story (PIS).

Were I to go back and do it again, I would likely rule differently. How? Not sure - I would need to weigh ALL of the evidence again. But this time I wouldn't go for any kind of 'find a middle ground' stuff. Thankfully, that's not my business any more. ^_^

I always disliked doing Mod Rulings, preferring that people come to a consensus.

You're bumping up against a broader question here. Do Marvel feats from 50+ years ago still count? They haven't officially broken their continuity but the universe has been rebooted a dozen times over and writers retcon past events all the time. IDK. There are certainly cases like Mantis where their portrayal has shifted so drastically they might as well be different characters.

[choptop]

You're bumping up against a broader question here. Do Marvel feats from 50+ years ago still count? They haven't officially broken their continuity but the universe has been rebooted a dozen times over and writers retcon past events all the time. IDK. There are certainly cases like Mantis where their portrayal has shifted so drastically they might as well be different characters.

What's that about Mantis?

[Alan2099]

Mantis is such a special case, I really wouldn't want to bring her up.

SHe's the only character that I can think of that's had an unbroken continuity between three different companies.

[Sharpandpointies]

You're bumping up against a broader question here. Do Marvel feats from 50+ years ago still count? They haven't officially broken their continuity but the universe has been rebooted a dozen times over and writers retcon past events all the time. IDK. There are certainly cases like Mantis where their portrayal has shifted so drastically they might as well be different characters.

My feeling would always be 'discuss/debate that on a case-by-case basis, see what people come up with.'

[Wildling]

My feeling would always be 'discuss/debate that on a case-by-case basis, see what people come up with.'

I agree. An example is Sentry, who is a 23 years old character, which might count as middle-aged here, and even if he's had his share of debates and writer interpretations over the years (and might even be rebooted big soon in a new miniseries coming up at the end of the year), writers always agreed from the beginning the guy was superfast, even if nobody bothered to make him Superman or Silver Surfer fast. In the Black Panther comic, while in a distressed state, he escaped into orbit faster than Black Panther could contact the S.W.OR.D. station about it by touching his ear (and Thor couldn't do a thing about it), and the station itself had managed to scan him travelling at near lightspeed before he vanished entirely from their tech. And as a manipulated corpse he was blitzing Doctor Strange and Clea until they powered themselves up. Only then they could meet his attack head on, when Sentry was outright flying at them with shockwaves behind him.

[Username taken]

Yup. We all know Doomsday *should* have speed feats since he fights Superman but he really didn't. Superman consistently has speed feats- but not against Doomsday. So I feel like Thor has enough stuff to beat him.

But, yeah, not another Thor's speed debate.

Question, in comics, does Superman generally fight at super speed?

There's been a couple of times he's blitzed his foes but more often than not he gets into straight brawls.

I think it was Loeb that wrote Superman as being far faster than Doomsday but that's the only time I can think of that happening.

[Slade1]

Question, in comics, does Superman generally fight at super speed?

There's been a couple of times he's blitzed his foes but more often than not he gets into straight brawls.

I think it was Loeb that wrote Superman as being far faster than Doomsday but that's the only time I can think of that happening.

Just off the top of my head, he’s used his superspeed on Mongul and the Elite.

[Sharpandpointies]

He doesn’t, generally, but super speed is a well-established part of his power set, he uses it for all kinds of things, and as noted by Slade1, he occasionally busts it out in fights.

So when he doesn’t? PIS.

[Cronus]

He doesn’t, generally, but super speed is a well-established part of his power set, he uses it for all kinds of things, and as noted by Slade1, he occasionally busts it out in fights.

So when he doesn’t? PIS.

I wonder if Superman 152 would speak more to Clark's lack of super speed as more a CIS and not PIS? Mongul Jr. (IIRC) is training Clark to fight and use all of his powers together, including super speed, to effectively beat an opponent.

Superman 152.1 - Superman holding back.jpg

Superman 152.2 - Superman holding back.jpg

Superman 152.4 - Superman holding back.jpg

I mean, it's not unusual for Clark to hold back to.

[Captain Morgan]

I wonder if Superman 152 would speak more to Clark's lack of super speed as more a CIS and not PIS? Mongul Jr. (IIRC) is training Clark to fight and use all of his powers together, including super speed, to effectively beat an opponent.

Superman 152.1 - Superman holding back.jpg

Superman 152.2 - Superman holding back.jpg

Superman 152.4 - Superman holding back.jpg

I mean, it's not unusual for Clark to hold back to.

Not really. He blitzes enemies pretty frequently, too, and his fine control of his powers is so absurdly precise that he shouldn't be concerned about splattering people by accident. It's just plot holes

[Sharpandpointies]

Not really. He blitzes enemies pretty frequently, too, and his fine control of his powers is so absurdly precise that he shouldn't be concerned about splattering people by accident. It's just plot holes

Would tend to agree with this.

Clark does stuff like 'fly across entire city at sufficient speed to catch bullet fired at Lois at a distance of ~5 feet...starting his motion after the shot has been fired'.

The guy is ridiculously precise; his superspeed is essentially the same as normal speed to everyone else, when he chooses to use it. I can't see him having a problem punching people at that speed.

I get what the author is trying to say in 152. In fact, the author might actually trying to address Clark's PIS in-story. Maybe the author was frustrated by how Clark has been depicted fighting in the past, when he has so...many...options.

But he has enough stuff where he actually USES his speed and so forth in a semi-smart way that we know he can do it.

Regarding holding back: it's not considered CIS on Rumbles because it's not something the character can't control. It's not lack of knowledge of how to use powers effectively, it's not general tactical dumbness or the like; it's a choice. The character KNOWS how their powers work, CAN use their powers that way, but CHOOSES not to do so 99% of the time.

So it's not CIS.

Also, going by rules lawyering and logic (because it's fun) Bloodlust cannot remove CIS. However, bloodlust DOES remove the issue of 'The character almost always holds back', as the character is in a state where they will do anything to win. Ergo, 'holding back' is not CIS. ^_^

[Cronus]

Not really. He blitzes enemies pretty frequently, too, and his fine control of his powers is so absurdly precise that he shouldn't be concerned about splattering people by accident. It's just plot holes

Good point.

Would tend to agree with this.

Clark does stuff like 'fly across entire city at sufficient speed to catch bullet fired at Lois at a distance of ~5 feet...starting his motion after the shot has been fired'.

The guy is ridiculously precise; his superspeed is essentially the same as normal speed to everyone else, when he chooses to use it. I can't see him having a problem punching people at that speed.

I get what the author is trying to say in 152. In fact, the author might actually trying to address Clark's PIS in-story. Maybe the author was frustrated by how Clark has been depicted fighting in the past, when he has so...many...options.

But he has enough stuff where he actually USES his speed and so forth in a semi-smart way that we know he can do it.

Regarding holding back: it's not considered CIS on Rumbles because it's not something the character can't control. It's not lack of knowledge of how to use powers effectively, it's not general tactical dumbness or the like; it's a choice. The character KNOWS how their powers work, CAN use their powers that way, but CHOOSES not to do so 99% of the time.

So it's not CIS.

Also, going by rules lawyering and logic (because it's fun) Bloodlust cannot remove CIS. However, bloodlust DOES remove the issue of 'The character almost always holds back', as the character is in a state where they will do anything to win. Ergo, 'holding back' is not CIS. ^_^

Understood, well explained.