Brevoort on NEW WAYS TO DIE

[TinkerSpider]

I think what Coca Cola learned from that experience was to not inform the public in the manner they did,

I doubt the flavor of Coke is exactly the same as when it was intially produced. The goal is always to make more while cutting cost even if it means adjusting the flavor. They just need to keep it small enough that most won't notice.

There are decades of business school cases, non-fiction books, business journal articles, interviews with executives, primary sources, and other forms of journalism that factually tell what happened and provide the actual recaps/lessons.

And it wasn’t a cost cutting measure at all. It was an overcorrection to Pepsi, which is sweeter, making inroads into Coke’s market share especially among younger drinkers. It was Coca Cola looking at the market, wondering how it would continue to attract newer, younger customers, and deciding to change for those mythical new customers who didn’t materialize while angering its loyal base of customers and causing loud mouthed disgruntlement. Sound familiar?

What Coke learned was to lean into its strengths and its history and its unique selling proposition (i.e. taste) instead of trying to chase the mythical young drinker, and the lesson was to create line extensions to experiment with flavor, taste and attracting new audience segments instead of wholesale wiping out decades of its history.

Yeah, isn't the consperisy theory that the whole New Coke thing was just a smoke screen while they took the cane sugar out?

In reality, the company started taking cane sugar out of Coca Cola in 1980, five years before New Coke.

What is funny is that part of the justification for New Coke inside the company was that they thought a new formula and taste would get rid of the rumors that Coca Cola contained cocaine (the mid-eighties were the height of the cocaine wars and Reagan’s “War on Drugs”).

[DT Winslow]

You realize there are decades of business school cases, non-fiction books, business journal articles, and other forms of journalism that factually tell what happened and provide the actual recaps/lessons, right?

And it wasn’t a cost cutting measure at all. It was an overcorrection to Pepsi, which is sweeter, making inroads into Coke’s market share especially among younger drinkers. It was Coca Cola looking at the market, wondering how it would continue to attract newer, younger customers, and deciding to change for those mythical new customers who didn’t materialize while angering its loyal base of customers and causing loud mouthed disgruntlement. Sound familiar?

What Coke learned was to lean into its strengths and its history and its unique selling proposition (i.e. taste) instead of trying to chase the mythical young drinker, and the lesson was to create line extensions to experiment with flavor, taste and attracting new audience segments instead of wholesale wiping out decades of its history.



That is the dumbest conspiracy theory I’ve heard, and I lived through the last two US presidential elections

In reality, Coke started taking cane sugar out of Coca Cola in 1980, five years before New Coke.

Nothing's sorry when it's selling.

Coke's sales bottomed out and there were protests in the streets. Marvel hasn't seen an equivalent sales slide that would make them reverse course. New Coke was less than 12 weeks. OMD has been 15 years.

[TinkerSpider]

Nothing's sorry when it's selling.

Coke's sales bottomed out and there were protests in the streets. Marvel hasn't seen an equivalent sales slide that would make them reverse course. New Coke was less than 12 weeks. OMD has been 15 years.

I’d say losing your market to manga almost completely outright in the last ten years counts. Not having a single title in the top 750 print graphic novel sales in 2021 and only having one in 2022 also counts.

As for the other, I agree Coca Cola is to be commended for listening to its disgruntled customers and taking swift action.

[DT Winslow]

I’d say losing your market to manga almost completely outright in the last ten years counts. Not having a single title in the top 750 print graphic novel sales in 2021 and only having one in 2022 also counts.

As for the other, I agree Coca Cola is to be commended for listening to its customers and taking swift action.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I get that you want to see Marvel as a failure, I do. But comparing apples to grapefruits isn't the way to do it. You're comparing the american comic book direct market to the american bookstore market. They are very different animals. Marvel's relative failure in the bookstore market is due to many factors, not least of which was Ike Perlmutter's insistence on no back catalog. Historically, Marvel has never done as well in the trade market compared to its success in the singles market.

[clonegeek]

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I get that you want to see Marvel as a failure, I do. But comparing apples to grapefruits isn't the way to do it. You're comparing the american comic book direct market to the american bookstore market. They are very different animals. Marvel's relative failure in the bookstore market is due to many factors, not least of which was Ike Perlmutter's insistence on no back catalog. Historically, Marvel has never done as well in the trade market compared to its success in the singles market.

Maybe Marvel needs to build up a better trade market and keep things in print more

[Matt14teg]

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I get that you want to see Marvel as a failure, I do. But comparing apples to grapefruits isn't the way to do it. You're comparing the american comic book direct market to the american bookstore market. They are very different animals. Marvel's relative failure in the bookstore market is due to many factors, not least of which was Ike Perlmutter's insistence on no back catalog. Historically, Marvel has never done as well in the trade market compared to its success in the singles market.

I do wish we had more historical data in regards to demographics & generational data, Big 2/Marvel comics are definitely not a point of a doomed to failure but more so doomed to a falling trend of interest in the market amongst these next generation. Superheroes will always remain a main staple is a strong sentiment in today's day & age, but i don't think we can confidently say that they will retain the customer base for the next generations like manga is currently doing right now. Manga/Anime has seen tremendous booms in the last 10-20 years, its no longer some kind of niche category its become ingrained and synonymous with the mainstream culture. Superheros have to0 but I don't think we can realistically say that the comic industry has retained that same interest that the manga/anime has. Then again even tho both are comics we can say we are comparing potatoes to tomatoes. The next 10 years will be an interesting period for Marvel & their line of products, will they increase the price again, flood the market with more variants in an attempt to beat the comp, or experiment with formats that are outside the typical business move.

A fun data point for everyone, the amount of variants that have been pushed out by the comic industry the past few years.
2022-YearEndReleases by Type.jpg

[DT Winslow]

Maybe Marvel needs to build up a better trade market and keep things in print more

Absolutely. And print more graphic novels through Scholastic. Captain America Ghost Army was awesome. My kids and I loved it. More of that, please. Scholastic has fucking reach.

[DT Winslow]

I do wish we had more historical data in regards to demographics & generational data, Big 2/Marvel comics are definitely not a point of a doomed to failure but more so doomed to a falling trend of interest in the market amongst these next generation. Superheroes will always remain a main staple is a strong sentiment in today's day & age, but i don't think we can confidently say that they will retain the customer base for the next generations like manga is currently doing right now. Manga/Anime has seen tremendous booms in the last 10-20 years, its no longer some kind of niche category its become ingrained and synonymous with the mainstream culture. Superheros have to0 but I don't think we can realistically say that the comic industry has retained that same interest that the manga/anime has. Then again even tho both are comics we can say we are comparing potatoes to tomatoes. The next 10 years will be an interesting period for Marvel & their line of products, will they increase the price again, flood the market with more variants in an attempt to beat the comp, or experiment with formats that are outside the typical business move.

A fun data point for everyone, the amount of variants that have been pushed out by the comic industry the past few years.
2022-YearEndReleases by Type.jpg

The direct market needs to die.

[Matt14teg]

The direct market needs to die.

2025 when the market has 5,000 comics that year and over 20,000 variants is gonna be funny to see.

[TinkerSpider]

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I get that you want to see Marvel as a failure, I do. But comparing apples to grapefruits isn't the way to do it. You're comparing the american comic book direct market to the american bookstore market. They are very different animals. Marvel's relative failure in the bookstore market is due to many factors, not least of which was Ike Perlmutter's insistence on no back catalog. Historically, Marvel has never done as well in the trade market compared to its success in the singles market.

I don’t want to see Marvel fail, but as Alex says: capitalism.

The American bookstore market IS Marvel’s market, as is digital; it distributes in all channels.

And since there are 3x as many indie bookstores as direct market LCSs - which also carry manga, by the way, so Marvel is directly competing in that distribution channel as well - not to mention Amazon, not to mention big box stores such as Walmart and Target that carry print graphic novels - it’s a far larger one. If Marvel’s goal, as we keep being told, is to ensure the next generation will read their comics - why aren’t they in the largest distribution channel where they would have the most access to new readers?

Y’know who is in the market? Scholastic, which sells direct to school kids through its book fairs, and who is having great success with licensing Miles Morales (but that counts as a Scholastic book, not a Marvel book). (Which also speaks to the argument that Marvel has Miles to be the young, learning about the world Spider-Man, so having two is brand dilution/confusion but that’s another thread).

Pointing to the one smallish channel that Marvel might be successful in (because as Heidi MacDonald among others has pointed out, we don’t have reliable monthly floppy sales data) while ignoring the entirety of Marvel’s market is ignoring how business works.

And if any company knows how to crunch numbers and analyze markets, it’s Disney. Granted, Iger and his lieutenants have much bigger problems on their hands at the moment.

[DT Winslow]

Your Charles Xavier impersonation needs some work when it comes to mind reading.

I don’t want to see Marvel fail, but as Alex says: capitalism.

The American bookstore market IS Marvel’s market, as is digital; it distributes in all channels.

And since there are 3x as many indie bookstores as direct market LCSs - which also carry manga, by the way, so Marvel is directly competing in that distribution channel as well - not to mention Amazon, not to mention big box stores such as Walmart and Target that carry print graphic novels - it’s a far larger one. If Marvel’s goal, as we keep being told, is to ensure the next generation will read their comics - why aren’t they in the largest distribution channel where they would have the most access to new readers?

Y’know who is in the market? Scholastic, which sells direct to school kids through its book fairs, and who is having great success with licensing Miles Morales (but that counts as a Scholastic book, not a Marvel book).

Pointing to the one smallish channel that Marvel might be successful in (because as Heidi MacDonald among others has pointed out, we don’t have reliable monthly floppy sales data) while ignoring the entirety of Marvel’s market is ignoring how business works.

And if any company knows how to crunch numbers and analyze markets, it’s Disney. Granted, Iger and his lieutenants have much bigger problems on their hands at the moment.

I want to say, sort of? On the grand scale, these are relatively recent developments. The bookstore market and the direct market have been historically separate when it comes to comics. They've been calculated differently, marketed differently, distributed differently. I agree that in theory, it's all one market but that hasn't always been true. The split away from newsstands and bookstores changed everything. Now, it's beginning to change again and the inroads are tough. Perlmutter's ousting will help as will new distribution with PRH.

The line about Target and Wal-Mart is a good one, but there are more roadblocks. Manga is cheap and easy for them to carry because it's cheap for them to buy. It's reprints of material that was cheap for the publisher to get their hands on. It's chiefly black and white. It's production costs are very low. Lower risk for them to stock it vs an expensive to purchase product. Marvel/DC needs to make them cheaper to get retail stores to carry them.

As I said above, Scholastic has fucking reach. That's how I fell in love with reading and it's how many kids are still first exposed to so many books.

I think while we disagree on specifics, we agree on the main point. More people should have the ability and availability to read comics. The direct market is a dinosaur that needs to die and the entire paradigm needs to shift so it doesn't sink in the tar that is the future.

[clonegeek]

I want to say, sort of? On the grand scale, these are relatively recent developments. The bookstore market and the direct market have been historically separate when it comes to comics. They've been calculated differently, marketed differently, distributed differently. I agree that in theory, it's all one market but that hasn't always been true. The split away from newsstands and bookstores changed everything. Now, it's beginning to change again and the inroads are tough. Perlmutter's ousting will help as will new distribution with PRH.

The line about Target and Wal-Mart is a good one, but there are more roadblocks. Manga is cheap and easy for them to carry because it's cheap for them to buy. It's reprints of material that was cheap for the publisher to get their hands on. It's chiefly black and white. It's production costs are very low. Lower risk for them to stock it vs an expensive to purchase product. Marvel/DC needs to make them cheaper to get retail stores to carry them.

As I said above, Scholastic has fucking reach. That's how I fell in love with reading and it's how many kids are still first exposed to so many books.

I think while we disagree on specifics, we agree on the main point. More people should have the ability and availability to read comics. The direct market is a dinosaur that needs to die and the entire paradigm needs to shift so it doesn't sink in the tar that is the future.

Marvel also needs a much better digital strategy

[DT Winslow]

Marvel also needs a much better digital strategy

They need a cohesive publishing strategy across all platforms and markets. They can't continue to treat the direct market differently from the bookstore market differently from the digital market.

[clonegeek]

They need a cohesive publishing strategy across all platforms and markets. They can't continue to treat the direct market differently from the bookstore market differently from the digital market.

Marvel needs a stronger mangement team that is more in touch with the global market demands. Also the marketing needs to be stronger with a slimmed down line of books. Interesting side note, yesterday I had a college professor in marketing tell me that Gen Z tends to be more frugal compared to previous ones. With them shopping more at thrift shops and the like. With comics rising to 5 dollars for a 22 page story, I doubt gen Z will start buying comics.

[Alex_Of_X]

Marvel needs a stronger mangement team that is more in touch with the global market demands. Also the marketing needs to be stronger with a slimmed down line of books. Interesting side note, yesterday I had a college professor in marketing tell me that Gen Z tends to be more frugal compared to previous ones. With them shopping more at thrift shops and the like. With comics rising to 5 dollars for a 22 page story, I doubt gen Z will start buying comics.

To be fair to new readers, Marvel Unlimited is, what, 9.99$\month, with a free month up front? Trades are ~12$ for ~5 issues. Back issue bins...exist.

That is to say, current readers are a bit better equipped to deal with the price hike than their contemporaries were in ~2010-2011