Which characters are you okay with preceding Superman?

[bat39]

In any given timeline of the DCU that is.

The JSA is the obvious answer. But how far does that go? We may be comfortable with the likes of Jay, Alan, Ted and other Golden Agers preceding Superman. But how about Power Girl? Or the rest of the Infinity Inc generation? Since that appears to be the case currently (at least as far as Power Girl goes).

Then there's Batman of course who preceded Superman in the DCAU, the DCEU, and potentially in Gunn's upcoming DCU as well - not to mention possibly in some comic-book continuities.

What about other non-powered heroes like Green Arrow?

Then there's Green Lantern. Does Hal need to get the ring and join the Corps after Superman shows up?

What about someone like, say, Blue Beetle? Based on the new film, and the possibility that its set in Gunn's DCU, it seems like Ted Kord would have preceded Superman (as would Dan Garett, but that's the case in the comics anyway)

How about Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, who I think were canonically anyway active before Superman, but kept a low profile?

Ultimately, this is where I come down on it:

JSA: Specifically all the Golden Age JSA characters. I'm also okay with Infinity Inc and Power Girl preceding Superman, provided their era is pegged as the 70's/80's...so a generation (at least) passes before Superman's debut and the sliding timescale kicking in. Oh, and Power Girl kept a low profile and wasn't remembered much, so no one compares Superman to her later on.

Green Arrow: As a non-powered vigilante, I'm pretty okay with him starting out years before Superman. Actually, this is already kind of the case, since current continuity has Green Arrow and Speedy time-traveling to the Golden Age and joining the Seven Soldiers of Victory. That said, I'm a bit iffy on the likes of Speedy (or any of the sidekicks) debuting before Superman in the 'present-day'.

Batman: Honestly, I think Batman's origin works better if Superman isn't already around. The idea of dressing up like a bat to terrorize criminals lands differently in a world where a costumed alien is already taking to the skies.

Aquaman: I'm okay with Arthur being active and maybe even getting dubbed 'Aquaman' by some of the people he encounters. But he's an urban myth (or rather, a 'marine' myth) for the most part, and Superman's debut is what makes him ready to reveal himself to the surface world publicaly.

Martian Manhunter: J'onn has canonically been on earth for decades before Superman, but he only publicaly reveals himself after Superman's debut.

Green Lantern: I'm okay with Hal getting the ring and maybe starting to train with the Corps on Oa - even going on some early missions in space, or secretely on earth. But I don't want GL as a public hero before Superman.

Wonder Woman: Well, this is current canon, and she's part of the Golden Age JSA (and perhaps the Bronze Age JSA). That said, Diana's 'modern' debut/return should happen after Superman appears.

The way I see it, Superman debuts in a world where superheroes, notably the JSA, existed back during WW2, and even up till the 70's or 80's. But its been decades since there have been any publicaly active superheroes, certainly none with his powers, so he still blows minds. However, vigilantes such as Batman and Green Arrow have been active for a few months/years in their respective cities. Aquaman has been active below the radar in the seas, and Martian Manhunter has secretely been operating for decades. Hal Jordan is possibly already training to become a Green Lantern out in space. And Wonder Woman is on Paradise Island and will soon be making her return to earth decades after her last appearance.

[Jim Kelly]

This is a long topic to get into, because there are so many timelines to talk about.

In the original publishing timeline of Superman he came before most of them. It's mainly just mystery men, detectives and magicians that appeared before him or concurrently. On original Earth-One, there are several super-heroes that had to appear before or at the same time as Superboy. And in other timelines there are different variations. In some timelines, Superman is the first and in others he came much later.

[bat39]

This is a long topic to get into, because there are so many timelines to talk about.

In the original publishing timeline of Superman he came before most of them. It's mainly just mystery men, detectives and magicians that appeared before him or concurrently. On original Earth-One, there are several super-heroes that had to appear before or at the same time as Superboy. And in other timelines there are different variations. In some timelines, Superman is the first and in others he came much later.

Actually, the only timeline I can think of where he's unquestionably the first is the original Golden Age/Earth Two timeline

Even Earth One is a bit iffy. Its likely that Wonder Woman preceded Superman, given Donna Troy's age...but did she precede Superboy as well?

Once you get to Post-Crisis, then every timeline since then has had at least some heroes preceding Superman - usually the JSA (and other Golden Agers), but even the New 52 had some heroes preceding him iirc.

[superduperman]

Mostly just the JSA. Since presumably, if we're talking about the modern day, they would be long retired. I don't like the idea of any of the "modern" heroes predating him. Maybe some behind the scenes heroes like Dr. Occult and other lesser known, non-public figures. I know in the nineties that Martian Manhunter belonged to a sort of "middle" team that operated in the 50s and 60s between the JSA and the debut of Superman. Have no idea how public they were though.

[marhawkman]

Actually, the only timeline I can think of where he's unquestionably the first is the original Golden Age/Earth Two timeline

Even Earth One is a bit iffy. Its likely that Wonder Woman preceded Superman, given Donna Troy's age...but did she precede Superboy as well?

Once you get to Post-Crisis, then every timeline since then has had at least some heroes preceding Superman - usually the JSA (and other Golden Agers), but even the New 52 had some heroes preceding him iirc.

New Earth introduced Iron Munro as a superhero who Kal-El found inspiring. So now you have someone who definitely pre-dated Superman in-universe. Which is kinda like that weird thing with the JSA predating the JLA... in the same universe. In the original incarnations... it was at least in part the SAME characters. So to make it work they had to ... re-invent the JSA. but that makes Kal-El... the second Superman, unless you have a not-Superman instead of Kal-El in the JSA. But even so... it makes Superman not the first. Having an entire TEAM predate the JLA and all that....

[SuperX]

JSA = Mystery men with weaker versions of silver age characters powers (atleast back then)

Infinity Inc with PG= short lived under the radar govt controlled.PG has no memory and is much weaker.

Batman and green arrow= don't care they are puny flesh things,and work in the shadows.

Hal= after.my retcon would be abin came toward earth to find superman while he was dying,but found Hal instead

Aquaman= not leader/king like potential before superman,but still fighting against injustice under the sea

Martian manuhunter= secretly here,trying to get home to his family(even though they are dead),not until superman inspires jonn to use his alien powers to help humans.

Wonder woman= came to man's world,joined the JSA,tried thst out,then went back home,until heard of "the" superman.

[Alpha]

In all honesty, any of them could have preced Superman. He really doesn't have to be the first. He doesn't even have to be the strongest. The reason why people want both these things to be true is so that he can be given the special status that he has in publication history.

But he can still be a landmark in a world that already had a lot of superheroes, as long as he changes the landscape for superheroes.

In my own little fanfiction, Superman is the one that changes the sistemic relationship between a superhero and the social order. He is too powerful to be a vigilante, and he is too ambitious to be a goverment agent, and he is too unique to be elected in public office.

But how can he still have a role in the social order that takes advantages of all he can do, and all he believes, in a world where some might agree with him and some might not?

Well, he becomes something similar to the role that the catholic church had in the economy and infrastructures in the middle ages. He himself is jesus not as a fantasy spiritual leader, but as a social activist. What if superheroes provided a parallel economic infrastructure the way the church was funded through donations, and created hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc while promoting their own ideology.

Flash could exist before him, but he wouldn't do this.

Wonder Woman could exist before him, but she would be creating her own separate society apart from the others.

He doesn't have to be the first, he just has to do it in a revolutionary way

[Jon Clark]

To me Superman should always be the first since he is the template for all that came after. But Post-Crisis that ship has sailed and the guy who carved the path is now just another also-ran.

The JSA especially if we have Wonder Woman as a member did all Superman's feats first (outracing bullets, outmuscling trains, leaping tall buildings). All Superman has is that most people hadn't seen it in the generations between the JSA and "now".

I'll admit the Martian Manhunter does work if he isn't publicly known when set in the Red Scare era as someone who saw what happened to the JSA and decided to remain just John Jones detective even while surreptitiously using his powers.

Power Girl is annoying and anachronistic as a 1970's character but she really doesn't add anything to undercutting Superman's debut that wasn't done by Doctor Fate or Alan Scott in the 1940's.

Superman was the character that rung the bell to start the DCU in 1938. Now there were other bell-ringers before him. You can't unring the bell once they appear, so might as well accept that everyone and everyone can preceded Superman's appearance now and it will not make a difference where they s;ot his appearance in.

[Dred]

Not many people are going to think on this one but obviously Max Mercury. He's from the wild west and isn't an Earth-2/JSA guy regardless.

[Jon Clark]

Not many people are going to think on this one but obviously Max Mercury. He's from the wild west and isn't an Earth-2/JSA guy regardless.

Technically he's Earth-X since he was based on Quality's Quicksilver which may make him Earth-2 by way of Roy Thomas sticking everyone but Captain Marvel on Earth-2 if they were now owned by DC and were part of the Golden Age.

[Dred]

Nah. Plastic Man is mainline DC these days with nothing about universe mergers. That ship has sailed. There's no connection between Max or Plas and that and they were never a part of Earth 2 as far as I'm aware. So unless you want to completely exclude those characters entirely from history, which you really can't at this point as Max is fundamental to The Flash, Superman ain't predating Max Mercury. Or, should I say, Windrunner.

This is also ignoring the fact that other characters have lore that implies superheroics dating back before Superman's debut that's fundamental to their backstory that necessitates superheroic. I mean Atlanteans are a thing for millenia and they literally have superpowered people doing heroic things with special names. Zatanna in your mainline DC universe? Sorry, Zatarra's gotta be active way before Superman for that to work and DC isn't throwing away their top female magic user.

etc etc.

This is not a genie that's going back in the bottle. It wasn't even true Pre-Crisis before all the Earth 2 stuff.

Heck, even when it was a separate Earth pre-crisis, Barry Allen's own origin necessitates that prime earth is aware of the concept of superpowered superheroes because they made comics about them and that's where Barry got his name! So even in Superman's own universe, as soon as the Silver Age rolled around and Superman was sharing continuity with Barry Allen, him being a superhero wasn't a brand new idea or concept -- even if only through pop culture Clark would've necessarily been aware of and inspired by the Earth 2 heroes. So why is it a big deal if it's inspired by their comics books, which are just stories of their real adventures in another universe, or inspired by...stories of their real adventures on the same world?

There's just too many ways you're not avoiding it.

[Vakanai]

Most of the JSA of course, the old guard that they are (OG Green Lantern, Flash, Sandman, Hourman, Starman, Wildcat, Doctor Mid-nite being the only ones I can name for sure). Doctor Fate, the Spectre, Zatarra being others. Oh and the Wild West heroes like Jonah Hex, Bat Lash, and OG El Diablo. And Etrigan. And WWII characters like Sgt. Rock. You get the idea, characters best set in specific time periods or have a long history.

Did the JSA ever fight Vandal or R'as? Like before "modern setting"? Because that'd be cool.

Honestly I don't care if Wonder Woman or Batman show up first as long as it's only by a year or two. The Trinity need to be peers close in biological age (not chronological age, since Clark was in stasis/hibernation as a baby in the rocket probably and Diana's from a culture/people/whatever that doesn't really grow old) and close in their debuts, but I honestly couldn't care less which of the three appears first second or third so long as it's all in the same couple year time span.

That's the heroes. For villains obviously immortal/un-aging/cosmic/ancient characters like Darkseid, Vandal Savage, Brainiac, Black Adam, and R'as al Ghul are all operating in their own spheres through the centuries, as are of course the villains the JSA fight back in the day, whoever they are (most my knowledge of the JSA come from cartoons and the Stargirl show). Oh and characters with time travel powers like Eobard can show up whenever in history, that's sort of their point/schtick to a degree.

[Digifiend]

Vandal is actually part of Alan Scott's rogues gallery, he debuted in 1943.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Green_Lantern_Vol_1_10

[Vakanai]

Vandal is actually part of Alan Scott's rogues gallery, he debuted in 1943.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Green_Lantern_Vol_1_10

Huh, for some reason I always pegged Vandal Savage as a 60s/70s era villain, I don't know why just got that feel about him, but he's actually OG Golden Age, nice!

[Jim Kelly]

Actually, the only timeline I can think of where he's unquestionably the first is the original Golden Age/Earth Two timeline

Even Earth One is a bit iffy. Its likely that Wonder Woman preceded Superman, given Donna Troy's age...but did she precede Superboy as well?

Once you get to Post-Crisis, then every timeline since then has had at least some heroes preceding Superman - usually the JSA (and other Golden Agers), but even the New 52 had some heroes preceding him iirc.

In my post I said "original publishing timeline" to make that clear what I meant. Earth-Two is not that. Earth-Two was created in the early 1960s and went through a few different evolutions before it was destroyed in 1986. In the early uses of that Earth, it's possible that Superman and Batman don't exist, then when they do they are virtually identical to the Earth-One version, then in the 1970s, much more distinction is made and we learn more about what is and isn't in their timeline, then in the early 1980s Roy Thomas does his own thing with the history of Earth-Two. So right there you've got a few different timelines.

There are also a lot of Earth timelines that fans have theorized to exist which aren't officially recognized. For example, E. Nelson Bridwell suggested there was an in-between Earth in the 1950s which was mainly just a Superman-Batman Earth which would contain some of the 1950s WORLD'S FINEST stories and other stories from their solo comics. Fans then called this Earth-E in honour of Bridwell. Of course, there's the famous Earth-B--Earth-Boltinoff--to account for the crazy things that went on in his THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD and other titles under his purview. But fans came up with hundreds of other possible Earths to account for all the continuity inconsistencies.

I also recall that among fans, prior to Crisis, some were adamant that Superman should be the first super-hero even on Earth-One. This was arguably the case prior to 1971, before Superman's timeline changed, because Superboy was presumably living in the 1920s and 1930s and therefore arrived before the big explosion of super-heroes in the 1940s. Even when Superboy's introduction was changed, you could still argue that most of the super-heroes hanging around Earth-One had only existed after Kal-El came to Earth--and remember he was doing super-feats even as Superbaby.

After Crisis, Superman was the first super-hero of his age, but since the Justice Society was supposed to be on that Earth they had to have existed in a previous age. This is maybe what made some editor want to get rid of the Justice Society. I wonder if eventually the timeline would have been changed to get them out of Superman's continuity, the same way the Legion was. In any case, you can't really say there's only been one timeline since 1986, there have been several. And I'm not clear what's in or out of continuity anymore. It's a mess that I can't follow.

This is to say nothing of the Elseworlds and Imaginary Stories. In particular, I like the John Byrne GENERATIONS Earth, where Superman is the first super-hero. And then there's the NEW FRONTIER Earth of Darwyn Cooke. And all the different timelines in the movies and T.V. shows, where Superman must have been the first super-hero.