Which characters are you okay with preceding Superman?

[bat39]

Mostly just the JSA. Since presumably, if we're talking about the modern day, they would be long retired. I don't like the idea of any of the "modern" heroes predating him. Maybe some behind the scenes heroes like Dr. Occult and other lesser known, non-public figures. I know in the nineties that Martian Manhunter belonged to a sort of "middle" team that operated in the 50s and 60s between the JSA and the debut of Superman. Have no idea how public they were though.

Yeah, it was called the Justice Experience, and J'onn was part of it as the 'Bronze Wraith'.

JSA = Mystery men with weaker versions of silver age characters powers (atleast back then)

Infinity Inc with PG= short lived under the radar govt controlled.PG has no memory and is much weaker.

Batman and green arrow= don't care they are puny flesh things,and work in the shadows.

Hal= after.my retcon would be abin came toward earth to find superman while he was dying,but found Hal instead

Aquaman= not leader/king like potential before superman,but still fighting against injustice under the sea

Martian manuhunter= secretly here,trying to get home to his family(even though they are dead),not until superman inspires jonn to use his alien powers to help humans.

Wonder woman= came to man's world,joined the JSA,tried thst out,then went back home,until heard of "the" superman.

Broadly how I see it too, except that I would tie Abin Sur coming to earth or Diana returning to Man's World, with Superman's appearance. I also think J'onn would still be a hero long before Clark came on the scene, albeit he'd be hiding his true nature (which is pretty much canon as it currently stands).

In all honesty, any of them could have preced Superman. He really doesn't have to be the first. He doesn't even have to be the strongest. The reason why people want both these things to be true is so that he can be given the special status that he has in publication history.

But he can still be a landmark in a world that already had a lot of superheroes, as long as he changes the landscape for superheroes.

In my own little fanfiction, Superman is the one that changes the sistemic relationship between a superhero and the social order. He is too powerful to be a vigilante, and he is too ambitious to be a goverment agent, and he is too unique to be elected in public office.

But how can he still have a role in the social order that takes advantages of all he can do, and all he believes, in a world where some might agree with him and some might not?

Well, he becomes something similar to the role that the catholic church had in the economy and infrastructures in the middle ages. He himself is jesus not as a fantasy spiritual leader, but as a social activist. What if superheroes provided a parallel economic infrastructure the way the church was funded through donations, and created hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc while promoting their own ideology.

Yeah I think this is a great way to highlight how Superman is still a gamechanger in a world where superheroes already existed in the past (or may already exist in the present). I mean, I'm not the greatest fan of "Superman as an inspiration" since it tends to turn him into a bit of a preacher and navel-gazer rather than a man of action, but since this is how he's usually depicted, they might as well put it to good use.

I actually think the DCEU kinda went down this route. Superman's emergence was such a big deal because of the sheer magnitude of his power and the impact his first appearance (which was accompanied by a literal alien invasion) made. We later find out that Batman, Wonder Woman, and the entire JSA preceded Superman, but I still don't have a hard time believing why Superman made such an overpowering impact on the collective psyche of the world.

Honestly I don't care if Wonder Woman or Batman show up first as long as it's only by a year or two. The Trinity need to be peers close in biological age (not chronological age, since Clark was in stasis/hibernation as a baby in the rocket probably and Diana's from a culture/people/whatever that doesn't really grow old) and close in their debuts, but I honestly couldn't care less which of the three appears first second or third so long as it's all in the same couple year time span.

When it comes to Batman in mainline DC continuities, I tend to prefer him showing up anywhere between 1 to 5 years before Superman...preferably on the lower side, since I kinda prefer Dick to become Robin after Clark has made his debut as Superman. In the case of Wonder Woman in the modern era, I'd prefer if it was after Superman and Batman have both appeared.

Here's how I roughly see the early 'modern age' panning out - Batman is first, and operates for a year or two mainly as a vigilante in the shadows. Then Superman debuts. During the course of Superman's first year, he and Batman meet and there's some friction, but the impact of Superman's appearance, coupled with the changing nature of his own crusade (battling colorful rogues as opposed to organized crime) leads Batman into a more overtly 'heroic' direction as well. Robin comes on the scene around this time. Over the following year, Green Arrow starts out (if he hasn't already), Aquaman makes his presence known, and Wonder Woman returns to Man's World. Then Barry becomes the Flash. Then Hal Jordan becomes GL. And then, around four or five years into Batman's career, the Justice League is formed.

In my post I said "original publishing timeline" to make that clear what I meant. Earth-Two is not that. Earth-Two was created in the early 1960s and went through a few different evolutions before it was destroyed in 1986. In the early uses of that Earth, it's possible that Superman and Batman don't exist, then when they do they are virtually identical to the Earth-One version, then in the 1970s, much more distinction is made and we learn more about what is and isn't in their timeline, then in the early 1980s Roy Thomas does his own thing with the history of Earth-Two. So right there you've got a few different timelines.

There are also a lot of Earth timelines that fans have theorized to exist which aren't officially recognized. For example, E. Nelson Bridwell suggested there was an in-between Earth in the 1950s which was mainly just a Superman-Batman Earth which would contain some of the 1950s WORLD'S FINEST stories and other stories from their solo comics. Fans then called this Earth-E in honour of Bridwell. Of course, there's the famous Earth-B--Earth-Boltinoff--to account for the crazy things that went on in his THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD and other titles under his purview. But fans came up with hundreds of other possible Earths to account for all the continuity inconsistencies.

I also recall that among fans, prior to Crisis, some were adamant that Superman should be the first super-hero even on Earth-One. This was arguably the case prior to 1971, before Superman's timeline changed, because Superboy was presumably living in the 1920s and 1930s and therefore arrived before the big explosion of super-heroes in the 1940s. Even when Superboy's introduction was changed, you could still argue that most of the super-heroes hanging around Earth-One had only existed after Kal-El came to Earth--and remember he was doing super-feats even as Superbaby.

After Crisis, Superman was the first super-hero of his age, but since the Justice Society was supposed to be on that Earth they had to have existed in a previous age. This is maybe what made some editor want to get rid of the Justice Society. I wonder if eventually the timeline would have been changed to get them out of Superman's continuity, the same way the Legion was. In any case, you can't really say there's only been one timeline since 1986, there have been several. And I'm not clear what's in or out of continuity anymore. It's a mess that I can't follow.

This is to say nothing of the Elseworlds and Imaginary Stories. In particular, I like the John Byrne GENERATIONS Earth, where Superman is the first super-hero. And then there's the NEW FRONTIER Earth of Darwyn Cooke. And all the different timelines in the movies and T.V. shows, where Superman must have been the first super-hero.

Agree with you on Earth Two. That said, my point still stands. Superman was the first superhero on Earth Two. And to the extent that there was a cohesive 'shared universe' back during the actual Golden Age, he was likely the first superhero there as well (Doomsday Clock actually makes it clear that the original Siegal/Shuster Superman is the start of the Metaverse in 1938).

When it comes to adaptations, well we can only really consider the ones where there is a shared universe and heroes not connected to the Superman mythos exist. When it comes to those, the DCAU has Batman preceding Superman by at least a decade (probably more like 13 years). The DCEU has Batman, Wonder Woman and the JSA preceding him. Gunn's new DCU looks to be going the same way...Batman is likely a bit older, and two Blue Beetles likely existed long before Superman. The DCAMU, in its New 52 avatar, probably had Batman and the OG Teen Titans preceding Superman, and the Tomorrowverse has Batman preceding him, and possibly Flash and Green Arrow as well (haven't watched the last two movies though, in case something more is established). The Arrowverse, after its version of COIE, likely had Superman as among the first 'modern' heroes, but the JSA still existed in the past.

So with modern adaptations, you see the tendency to have Superman not be the first superhero...very often not even of the modern era.

[marhawkman]

Nah. Plastic Man is mainline DC these days with nothing about universe mergers. That ship has sailed. There's no connection between Max or Plas and that and they were never a part of Earth 2 as far as I'm aware. So unless you want to completely exclude those characters entirely from history, which you really can't at this point as Max is fundamental to The Flash, Superman ain't predating Max Mercury. Or, should I say, Windrunner.

This is also ignoring the fact that other characters have lore that implies superheroics dating back before Superman's debut that's fundamental to their backstory that necessitates superheroic. I mean Atlanteans are a thing for millenia and they literally have superpowered people doing heroic things with special names. Zatanna in your mainline DC universe? Sorry, Zatarra's gotta be active way before Superman for that to work and DC isn't throwing away their top female magic user.

etc etc.

This is not a genie that's going back in the bottle. It wasn't even true Pre-Crisis before all the Earth 2 stuff.

Heck, even when it was a separate Earth pre-crisis, Barry Allen's own origin necessitates that prime earth is aware of the concept of superpowered superheroes because they made comics about them and that's where Barry got his name! So even in Superman's own universe, as soon as the Silver Age rolled around and Superman was sharing continuity with Barry Allen, him being a superhero wasn't a brand new idea or concept -- even if only through pop culture Clark would've necessarily been aware of and inspired by the Earth 2 heroes. So why is it a big deal if it's inspired by their comics books, which are just stories of their real adventures in another universe, or inspired by...stories of their real adventures on the same world?

There's just too many ways you're not avoiding it.

One of the New Earth era stories with Plastic Man established that he's functionally immortal. So the idea of introducing him as a guy who joins the JLA after he's already 100 is ok I guess.

[Jim Kelly]

One problem I see if Clark is not the first character called a "super-hero" is then why is he called "Superman?" I think various people over the years have pointed out how silly it sounds that this guy is called Superman. If other characters arrived on the scene first, why weren't those ones called "Super-Man" and "Super-Woman?" It also makes Lois Lane a pretty poor writer, if she was the one who came up "Superman." Well, duh, Lois--this lends credence to the idea that Lois isn't good with words, she might be a great investigator but when it comes to writing a good article it's Clark who has the skill with language (he's a good typist, too).

[MajorHoy]

Huh, for some reason I always pegged Vandal Savage as a 60s/70s era villain, I don't know why just got that feel about him, but he's actually OG Golden Age, nice!

Vandal Savage was the guy responsible for the JSA regrouping back in the 1960s (in The Flash #137, cover-dated June 1963 and reprinted in issue #213 cover-dated March 1972) and was also in the first Injustice Society of the World from All-Star Comics #37 (October-November 1947), reprinted in 100-Page Super Spectacular #DC-17 (June 1973).

[marhawkman]

One problem I see if Clark is not the first character called a "super-hero" is then why is he called "Superman?" I think various people over the years have pointed out how silly it sounds that this guy is called Superman. If other characters arrived on the scene first, why weren't those ones called "Super-Man" and "Super-Woman?" It also makes Lois Lane a pretty poor writer, if she was the one who came up "Superman." Well, duh, Lois--this lends credence to the idea that Lois isn't good with words, she might be a great investigator but when it comes to writing a good article it's Clark who has the skill with language (he's a good typist, too).

Some versions have it as something the public gave him.

[The Darknight Detective]

In all honesty, any of them could have preced Superman. He really doesn't have to be the first. He doesn't even have to be the strongest. The reason why people want both these things to be true is so that he can be given the special status that he has in publication history.

Of course that's the reason and it even makes sense, too. He came out of the box first and as the strongest, so why should that be taken away? The real question, though, is why anybody else should get the honor instead?

[Kaijudo]

One problem I see if Clark is not the first character called a "super-hero" is then why is he called "Superman?" I think various people over the years have pointed out how silly it sounds that this guy is called Superman. If other characters arrived on the scene first, why weren't those ones called "Super-Man" and "Super-Woman?" It also makes Lois Lane a pretty poor writer, if she was the one who came up "Superman." Well, duh, Lois--this lends credence to the idea that Lois isn't good with words, she might be a great investigator but when it comes to writing a good article it's Clark who has the skill with language (he's a good typist, too).

There is the whole "S" on his costume that comes into play too. Plus, you're looking at an era where there hasn't been a regular presence of costumed heroes for some time (even gaming Infinity Inc. to have existed in the 80s/early 90s, that's still 30 years). You have the new breed of heroes debuting, but it's limited...Batman is sticking to the shadows, Wonder Woman comes with a built-in name from her WWII days, Green Lantern is more of a job title than a heroic identity, etc. Then Clark debuts and he seems to be more powerful, more resolute, more of the complete package than anyone else, appearing to be the embodiment of everything humanity aspires to be. Lois sees the "S" on the chest, knows about the concept of the Nietzschian Superman, and applies it here when naming him for the Planet's story.

[bat39]

There is the whole "S" on his costume that comes into play too. Plus, you're looking at an era where there hasn't been a regular presence of costumed heroes for some time (even gaming Infinity Inc. to have existed in the 80s/early 90s, that's still 30 years). You have the new breed of heroes debuting, but it's limited...Batman is sticking to the shadows, Wonder Woman comes with a built-in name from her WWII days, Green Lantern is more of a job title than a heroic identity, etc. Then Clark debuts and he seems to be more powerful, more resolute, more of the complete package than anyone else, appearing to be the embodiment of everything humanity aspires to be. Lois sees the "S" on the chest, knows about the concept of the Nietzschian Superman, and applies it here when naming him for the Planet's story.

Pretty much this.

[Rightoya]

I actually think the DCEU kinda went down this route. Superman's emergence was such a big deal because of the sheer magnitude of his power and the impact his first appearance (which was accompanied by a literal alien invasion) made. We later find out that Batman, Wonder Woman, and the entire JSA preceded Superman, but I still don't have a hard time believing why Superman made such an overpowering impact on the collective psyche of the world.

Yeah that is because DCEU Wonder Woman is a pathetic weakling with a confused timeline, the JSA basically just the cheerleaders to Rock Adam's Ego, and Batman obviously just a human in a fancy suit, but DCEU Superman still isn't even the slightest bit inspiring.

[superduperman]

Yeah, it was called the Justice Experience, and J'onn was part of it as the 'Bronze Wraith'.

Those are the most generic sounding superhero names I've ever heard.

EDITOR: "Okay, we're going to fill in Jon's backstory a little bit. So the idea I had was that he was on some superhero team before the Justice League but after the Justice Society. Give them some kind of fancy name. Maybe something with Justice in the title. I dunno, like, Justice Experience or something. Only make it more exciting. And he had a secret identity. Like, I dunno, the Bronze Wraith or something like that."

(editor leaves the room)

WRITER: "So everybody cool with Justice Experience?"

OTHER WRITERS: "Yeah, sure."

[Kaijudo]

Those are the most generic sounding superhero names I've ever heard.

EDITOR: "Okay, we're going to fill in Jon's backstory a little bit. So the idea I had was that he was on some superhero team before the Justice League but after the Justice Society. Give them some kind of fancy name. Maybe something with Justice in the title. I dunno, like, Justice Experience or something. Only make it more exciting. And he had a secret identity. Like, I dunno, the Bronze Wraith or something like that."

(editor leaves the room)

WRITER: "So everybody cool with Justice Experience?"

OTHER WRITERS: "Yeah, sure."

Can't speak to the Bronze Wraith, but the whole team was set in the late 60s and was supposed to invoke the counterculture/free love/Haight-Ashbury kind of vibe. In those terms, the Justice Experience is a perfect name for the team.

[Mutant God]

One problem I see if Clark is not the first character called a "super-hero" is then why is he called "Superman?" I think various people over the years have pointed out how silly it sounds that this guy is called Superman. If other characters arrived on the scene first, why weren't those ones called "Super-Man" and "Super-Woman?" It also makes Lois Lane a pretty poor writer, if she was the one who came up "Superman." Well, duh, Lois--this lends credence to the idea that Lois isn't good with words, she might be a great investigator but when it comes to writing a good article it's Clark who has the skill with language (he's a good typist, too).

I agree with this plus in some adaptations she says she came up with it because theres an S on his chest lol.

[Jim Kelly]

I guess ye little wee ones have never heard tell of the Jimi Hendrix Experience.

I believe this is what they were going for.

I had my own idea for a group called the Silver Underground.

[Digifiend]

Those are the most generic sounding superhero names I've ever heard.

EDITOR: "Okay, we're going to fill in Jon's backstory a little bit. So the idea I had was that he was on some superhero team before the Justice League but after the Justice Society. Give them some kind of fancy name. Maybe something with Justice in the title. I dunno, like, Justice Experience or something. Only make it more exciting. And he had a secret identity. Like, I dunno, the Bronze Wraith or something like that."

(editor leaves the room)

WRITER: "So everybody cool with Justice Experience?"

OTHER WRITERS: "Yeah, sure."

lol, that scene is taken from The Simpsons - the episode where Homer voiced Poochie on the Itchy and Scratchy show.

[The Darknight Detective]

I agree with this plus in some adaptations she says she came up with it because theres an S on his chest lol.

I actually like that the best as the catalyst for the name, FWIW.