WW '87 - The Perez Era General Discussion

[Primal Slayer]

Inspired by the 'John Byrne run thoughts', thought it'd be fun to discuss Perez specifics - the good, the bad, etc....

[Factor]

I’m currently reading the Cheetah arc that introduced the Bana-Mighdall. I loved previous arcs, but this one definitely did not age well. Did the Bana seriously keep men chained in their basements for breeding purposes? Jeez

[Gaius]

I’m currently reading the Cheetah arc that introduced the Bana-Mighdall. I loved previous arcs, but this one definitely did not age well. Did the Bana seriously keep men chained in their basements for breeding purposes? Jeez

Yeah, that's one of mixed arcs for me. The Bana are a natural idea to introduce but they've been pretty much always been dubious footing/portrayals.

Though still that arc has the best actual fight in a WW comic with Diana vs. Barbara. Rivaled only by Medusa in Rucka's run.

[kcekada]

Yeah, that's one of mixed arcs for me. The Bana are a natural idea to introduce but they've been pretty much always been dubious footing/portrayals.

Though still that arc has the best actual fight in a WW comic with Diana vs. Barbara. Rivaled only by Medusa in Rucka's run.

Perez would have reduced that Medusa fight to an issue or maybe two. Rucka's version was so drawn out -- and made Diana seem a little less than 'wonderful'.

I loved Perez's first year on the book -- that's probably some of his best writing. Didn't love his stories when he was only writing.

[DisneyBoy]

The contrast between the Banas and the Themys makes me wonder if Perez was doing some social commentary - the protected mostly-white elite versus those who are less white, having to scrape by.

The "good" Amazons vs "bad" Amazons stuff just left me uncomfortable. I can see why Phil did some work to address those tensions and resolve them in his run. But I honestly don't know why Perez and DC went this way with the Other Tribe who never made it to Themyscira.

[Koriand'r]

Perez would have reduced that Medusa fight to an issue or maybe two. Rucka's version was so drawn out -- and made Diana seem a little less than 'wonderful'.

I loved Perez's first year on the book -- that's probably some of his best writing. Didn't love his stories when he was only writing.

That's what made it EPIC! There was the skirmish at the embassy and then a timeout to pray and armor up for the Battle Royale at the stadium the next day.

[Koriand'r]

Stoned and the Bronze Doors combined probably took less time than Challenge of the Gods and were just as great. Challenge set the standard though.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Good-
A fantastic new supporting cast with depth and personality.
Gorgeous artwork. Particularly Dianas hair, and the new Olympus
Probably the best opening arc Wonder Womans ever had.
Love the wild fun new powers he gave the magic lasso.

Bad-
The entire thing with the Bana is just a mess. Earlier that same run Perez made an impassioned statement that the 'evil man hater' take on Amazons was propaganda, only to go on with 'oh actually it really IS canon, its just this other group of women who are evil murder rapist terrorists because brown skin.'

The aging up Steve Trevor because he 'didn't want to define Diana by her romantic relationships' I get what the intention may have been, but he did not learn the lesson that the silver age taught us, being that if you make Diana single, writers will devote huge chunks of their runs towards a concentrated battle to pair Diana with their new character.

The erasure of all the wild elements of Wonder Womans mythos from the purple ray to the sky kangas to the mental radio. I get Perez wanted to make something more classical and hewing closer to Greek mythology, but he erased alot of the things that made Wonder Woman distinct from Greek Mythology.

Olympus and the gods. Perez did amazing and terrific things with them. At the same token he made an effort to also write them out of the story so they would never be used again. This is wonderful. However when he made them such a central part of his narrative while also sorta becoming the defining writer of Wonder Woman for the next forty years, it led to just about everyone thinking you HAVE TO make every Wonder Woman story about the Greeky gods and olympus.

[bardkeep]

Perez's run is still the definitive run in my eyes, and Gods and Mortals is my favorite main-line superhero story of all time. His reimagining of the lore was a stroke of genius and recently it's been strengthened even more by Historia's brilliant modernized take on it. It's so thematically rich that you could really pick through it endlessly and keep finding new things.

It definitely has its problems. As others have pointed out, some of it has aged very poorly - Heracles' redemption arc was deeply problematic and the stuff with the Bana and Chuma ranges from vaguely to overtly racist. Some of the decisions he made in the reboot weren't perfect and things definitely started to fall apart later in the run (though the later stuff in the run did have its highlights, like Chalk Drawings and the excellent Strangers in Paradise arc). But the good stuff is GREAT and so all-encompassing and fundamental to the character that I think people take it for granted.

I also really appreciate that Perez made a point to feature female co-creators later on in the run (Jill Thompson finishing off the run as the regular artist, Mindy Newell co-scripting multiple arcs). And I don't think it's a coincidence that he specifically asked Gail Simone to write his last turn on the character in #600. It's clear that through all of his work he was very much focused on uplifting women.

The aging up Steve Trevor because he 'didn't want to define Diana by her romantic relationships' I get what the intention may have been, but he did not learn the lesson that the silver age taught us, being that if you make Diana single, writers will devote huge chunks of their runs towards a concentrated battle to pair Diana with their new character.

The erasure of all the wild elements of Wonder Womans mythos from the purple ray to the sky kangas to the mental radio. I get Perez wanted to make something more classical and hewing closer to Greek mythology, but he erased alot of the things that made Wonder Woman distinct from Greek Mythology.

Olympus and the gods. Perez did amazing and terrific things with them. At the same token he made an effort to also write them out of the story so they would never be used again. This is wonderful. However when he made them such a central part of his narrative while also sorta becoming the defining writer of Wonder Woman for the next forty years, it led to just about everyone thinking you HAVE TO make every Wonder Woman story about the Greeky gods and olympus.

I didn't mind him aging up Steve, but I hate what he did with Etta. Renae de Liz's Legend of Wonder Woman remains the best modern take on her IMO.

Definitely agree with your insight on his work with Olympus/the gods though. People tend to hold Perez solely responsible for pigeonholing WW in Greek mythology, but in truth his run was pretty balanced in terms of Olympus stuff vs. earthbound stuff. You had stories like Challenge of the Gods that were sort of in-the-clouds with more abstract stakes, but for the most part he used Greek mythology in tandem with earthbound stories, and his primary focus was really on Diana as a public figure and diplomat with a very grounded supporting cast. As you said, he also moved away from the gods as the run progressed, but even Gods and Mortals (which people often point to as the story that established the "WW = Greek mythology" thing) was as much a Cold War political story as it was a myth story.

It's really later writers who only saw the surface-level Greek mythology stuff and ran away with it. Just like later writers saw Perez's iconic image of Diana with a sword/shield and decided to make her a sword maiden, even though the story that features said image culminates in the Amazons melting down all of their weapons because they don't need them anymore.

And IMO Greg Rucka reached a decent compromise with the sci-fi stuff in Year One, where Themyscira was aesthetically simple but had some crazy tech behind the scenes. I wish he'd re-introduced some of the whimsical elements like the kangas as well, but I'm not sure if "Rucka" and "whimsy" have ever been used in the same sentence before...

[Pinsir]

Good-
A fantastic new supporting cast with depth and personality.
Gorgeous artwork. Particularly Dianas hair, and the new Olympus
Probably the best opening arc Wonder Womans ever had.
Love the wild fun new powers he gave the magic lasso.

Bad-
The entire thing with the Bana is just a mess. Earlier that same run Perez made an impassioned statement that the 'evil man hater' take on Amazons was propaganda, only to go on with 'oh actually it really IS canon, its just this other group of women who are evil murder rapist terrorists because brown skin.'

The aging up Steve Trevor because he 'didn't want to define Diana by her romantic relationships' I get what the intention may have been, but he did not learn the lesson that the silver age taught us, being that if you make Diana single, writers will devote huge chunks of their runs towards a concentrated battle to pair Diana with their new character.

The erasure of all the wild elements of Wonder Womans mythos from the purple ray to the sky kangas to the mental radio. I get Perez wanted to make something more classical and hewing closer to Greek mythology, but he erased alot of the things that made Wonder Woman distinct from Greek Mythology.

Olympus and the gods. Perez did amazing and terrific things with them. At the same token he made an effort to also write them out of the story so they would never be used again. This is wonderful. However when he made them such a central part of his narrative while also sorta becoming the defining writer of Wonder Woman for the next forty years, it led to just about everyone thinking you HAVE TO make every Wonder Woman story about the Greeky gods and olympus.

I don't think this gets brought up a lot, but one of the things of the things Perez did was 'Hellenize' her universe, that is to say make everything rooted in ancient Greek mythology, language and culture. So 'Mars' became 'Ares' for instance. Problem is; Diana is named after the Roman Goddess Diana. So he had to come up with a very convoluted reason as to why Wonder Woman is called Diana, which is why there is a plotline of Steve Trevor's aunt/mother (?) Diana coming to Amazon Island during WW2 (or something) and dying while fighting monsters that try to breach Dooms Doorway. So WW is named after Steve Trevors aunt/mother Diana for her heroism.

I don't fault Perez for sidelining Trevor though. The character had become something of a joke by then and he had been killed twice in the previous continuity as well. The last issue of WW Vol 1 ends in Trevor and WW getting married on Mount Olympus too, so, a lot of people that were invested in the relationship did get some closure.

[Agent Z]

I don't think this gets brought up a lot, but one of the things of the things Perez did was 'Hellenize' her universe, that is to say make everything rooted in ancient Greek mythology, language and culture. So 'Mars' became 'Ares' for instance. Problem is; Diana is named after the Roman Goddess Diana. So he had to come up with a very convoluted reason as to why Wonder Woman is called Diana, which is why there is a plotline of Steve Trevor's aunt/mother (?) Diana coming to Amazon Island during WW2 (or something) and dying while fighting monsters that try to breach Dooms Doorway. So WW is named after Steve Trevors aunt/mother Diana for her heroism.

I don't fault Perez for sidelining Trevor though. The character had become something of a joke by then and he had been killed twice in the previous continuity as well. The last issue of WW Vol 1 ends in Trevor and WW getting married on Mount Olympus too, so, a lot of people that were invested in the relationship did get some closure.

His Cheetah had no connection to Greek mythology and there were other pantheons that were featured or at least addressed.

[bardkeep]

I don't think this gets brought up a lot, but one of the things of the things Perez did was 'Hellenize' her universe, that is to say make everything rooted in ancient Greek mythology, language and culture. So 'Mars' became 'Ares' for instance. Problem is; Diana is named after the Roman Goddess Diana. So he had to come up with a very convoluted reason as to why Wonder Woman is called Diana, which is why there is a plotline of Steve Trevor's aunt/mother (?) Diana coming to Amazon Island during WW2 (or something) and dying while fighting monsters that try to breach Dooms Doorway. So WW is named after Steve Trevors aunt/mother Diana for her heroism.

Kelly Sue DeConnick came up with a very simple and effective solution to this problem.



I know Post-Crisis DC had a whole thing where the Roman and Greek pantheons were separate (and Perez's run had that boring Mercury vs. Hermes arc) but I always thought it was dumb. Felt like a way for them to have their cake and eat it too - they could do more "conventional" Hellenistic myth stories with the Roman gods and stick with WW's more subversive take on the Greek gods. Would've been way more interesting if they'd gone all in on the WW take.

[Agent Z]

What do you think of this conversation from #22?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Definitely agree with your insight on his work with Olympus/the gods though. People tend to hold Perez solely responsible for pigeonholing WW in Greek mythology, but in truth his run was pretty balanced in terms of Olympus stuff vs. earthbound stuff. You had stories like Challenge of the Gods that were sort of in-the-clouds with more abstract stakes, but for the most part he used Greek mythology in tandem with earthbound stories, and his primary focus was really on Diana as a public figure and diplomat with a very grounded supporting cast. As you said, he also moved away from the gods as the run progressed, but even Gods and Mortals (which people often point to as the story that established the "WW = Greek mythology" thing) was as much a Cold War political story as it was a myth story.

I was more referring to how Perez ended his run on Wonder Woman with the Greek pantheon deciding to abandon any association with the Earth and leaving the realm to 'join Chronos beyond the veil' Thats as final a send off as he could have done to try and put them on a farm so no one else would use them.

[WonderScott]

Besides Crisis, Wonder Woman was the first comic I collected when I “found” comics in the early 90s. So I’m a Perezian in some respects through imprinting.

I admire the power he gave her. I disliked that Amazons no longer were tech advanced. Her origin involving more of the goddesses and Hermes was pretty cool. Aging out Steve Trevor as a love interest didn’t appeal to me. I liked the reimagined villains: Ares, Ares’ Children, Cheetah, Doctor Psycho, Circe, etc. (Barbara Minerva I liked, not so much the racism and colonialism in her origin, even if she’s a villain.) All the villains leaned into horror in some ways. Some great supporting characters in Julia, Vanessa, and especially Myndi Mayer. Poor Etta Candy got sidelined again and removed from her original amazingness. Doom’s Doorway was an awesome concept and addition to Wonder lore. The beginning of the Crisis of Infinite Origins for Donna Troy began, sadly.

I really would have liked to see what Perez would have done with Giganta, Angle Man and Doctor Cyber given the chance or interest. It’s also a shame that the War of the Gods story was truncated from the original story. It was a good concept to play out within the DCU.