Jean Grey 2 Preview Logan with Phoenix Force

[PhoenixStudies]

I see a lot of people dismissing this book as a mere What If. But its not just a What If, because current Jean is actually witnessing and interacting/experiencing these scenarios. Whether its in her mind or the White Hot Room or similar realm remains to be seen.

And she seems to be actually interacting with her Phoenix power. This book is obviously designed to set up her new status quo for when she returns in Immortal X-Men.

[Frobisher]

"Your unique gift is to be the one capable of wielding that force. It came to you Jean as it will in time come to your children because it is your birth right." Hmm interesting so am I to assume your all for it staying in the gray family? If so what do you think about the ancient red head that did the nasty with Odin? Do you think it was Jean's ancestor or Jean herself?

Go back that far and we all share ancestors. Not even that far.

[The Regent]

Go back that far and we all share ancestors. Not even that far.

...ok lol.

[Jackraow21]

Considering how close Claremont and Simonson are, I wonder if Simonson also picked Wolverine as the new Phoenix based on Claremont's thoughts here.

"Logan and Jean are for me the primal forces of the universe. One is faith, the other is reality. It takes the two of them to bring creation to life. Jean can love (Cyclops) with all her heart, Logan can love Mariko with all his heart, but in a 125 years...Scott and Mariko will be dead. Jean and Logan go on forever. Forever is a really big word. So there are two levels of love, I guess. There is mortal love and immortal love. And that's the level on which Logan and Jean operate. To me."

Damn. I’ve never seen that quote from Claremont. Interesting and definitely helps me understand his writing of the two of them better.

[Mercury]

Damn. I’ve never seen that quote from Claremont. Interesting and definitely helps me understand his writing of the two of them better.

Go to the 33-minute mark here. This where that quote is from. It’s a great interview, btw. Long and insightful, with white a few beats about Logan:

[Phoenixx9]

Go to the 33-minute mark here. This where that quote is from. It’s a great interview, btw. Long and insightful, with white a few beats about Logan:

Yeah, I have read/listened to this before.

I believe Jean is tapping into her Phoenix Self and viewing different "What-If-Scenarios" to test if that is "the moment all went wrong", then burning them away when they don't change the course of events nor work out any better than the choices Jean already made. Jean went back to the beginning because that only makes sense.

Interesting to say the least just where this will take us....

[emfrst]

I'm fine with it in the Grey family, mainly Rachel since she was born of the Phoenix itself and has no biological father.

I never read the Avengers BC story but I remember seeing pics of the redhead Phoenix host. I can see her being an ancestor of Jean's especially since I think in Sinister's origin in The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, there's a Grey family there that is Jean's family. That was the case in Sinister's origin episode in the 90s show where his wife was Rebecca Grey and thus presumably an ancestor of Jean. The illusions Mastermind put in her head during TDPS where Jean thought she was reliving an ancestor's life also made me wonder if there was ever any truth to that so I imagine the Grey family line might be significant even earlier than Jean.

I've always seen the Phoenix Force as depicted in Classic X-Men #8 as a force like the one from Star Wars. Claremont described it as a force, not an entity, the way it is now. It's the sum of life that everyone is connected to (which is why when a Phoenix bonded Rachel is dying in Excalibur, the universe starts dying because the sum of life is fading away) but only some people have a strong enough connection to be able to tap into this force and use it to harness special abilities, like the Jedi in Star Wars. Jean would be the equivalent of Anakin in SW as the one with the most powerful connection to the force and like Anakin's family inherits his special connection, the same is true for Jean's children. Rachel, as a virgin birth in Claremont's conception of the character, would also be like Anakin in that sense.

These Classic X-Men backstories also established that it was Jean's mind that manifested her powers in the form of a firebird. So the Phoenix name, costume, and imagery are all derived from her. I don't mind other characters being connected to the force and being able to use some of its powers but no one else should be using the Phoenix manifestation because that belongs to Jean and her children if they were to keep that mantle as Rachel does. That's why I take umbrage with all these random characters being possessed and all manifesting the Phoenix logo and firebird raptor. Characters like Wolverine, Colossus, Echo, etc. should be not be manifesting a firebird. If they have a connection to the force, which isn't alive as its own conscious thing and shouldn't be speaking as if it has its own voice, any powers they manifest from it should come from how they would wield it, not the way Jean does.

wELL, Jean was definitely not a virgin even before rachel conceive

[whitecrown]

Damn. I’ve never seen that quote from Claremont. Interesting and definitely helps me understand his writing of the two of them better.

Besides the video Mercury posted, there's also this quote from Claremont.

“For me, the relationship between Phoenix and Jean is primal and unbreakable, and transcends the brief interlude of Jean’s physical existence on Earth,” Claremont said. “That there is a much larger back story and future story than anyone can imagine that would, in my personal vision, culminate umpty-bump billion years down the line, when you get to the last sun going out against the darkness, and on the last bit of rock you find Logan patiently sitting and waiting — probably playing chess with Kitty, who’s been watching over him 20 billion years — for Jean. Who shows up. And then she and Logan have their moment of privacy, and the fire of their passion ignites the big bang. That’s my vision of how all this fits together.”

[Uncanny X-Man]

Besides the video Mercury posted, there's also this quote from Claremont.

“For me, the relationship between Phoenix and Jean is primal and unbreakable, and transcends the brief interlude of Jean’s physical existence on Earth,” Claremont said. “That there is a much larger back story and future story than anyone can imagine that would, in my personal vision, culminate umpty-bump billion years down the line, when you get to the last sun going out against the darkness, and on the last bit of rock you find Logan patiently sitting and waiting — probably playing chess with Kitty, who’s been watching over him 20 billion years — for Jean. Who shows up. And then she and Logan have their moment of privacy, and the fire of their passion ignites the big bang. That’s my vision of how all this fits together.”

I heard this one before and always found it fascinating. Even assuming Logan's healing factor lets him live THAT long, I'm curious how Kitty gets that kind of longevity. I wonder if in this particular scenario she ascends to being Omniversal Majestrix as previously hinted at by Claremont? Or, more simply, if her natural intangible state makes her impervious to aging.

[whitecrown]

I heard this one before and always found it fascinating. Even assuming Logan's healing factor lets him live THAT long, I'm curious how Kitty gets that kind of longevity. I wonder if in this particular scenario she ascends to being Omniversal Majestrix as previously hinted at by Claremont? Or, more simply, if her natural intangible state makes her impervious to aging.

It has to do with the hints he seeded in Excalibur that Saturnyne was grooming Kitty to be her replacement as the Omniversal Majestrix, so you're right about the former. Although I can see the latter being used as an explanation as well since Claremont loves Kitty and always viewed her as Logan's natural heir so it doesn't surprise me that he'd come up with anything to keep Logan and Kitty around and together till the end.

X-Men Forever (2001) was a miniseries that talked about how some humans and mutants would in thousands of years replace the current cosmic entities of the universe and become the new ones. Jean and Bobby were two of the X-Men included in this series precisely because of their limitless omega-level status (back when being an omega-level mutant was actually a rare thing and not a title given out to any pet favorites of the current writer). I've heard a lot of theories from the Iceman fandom about how Bobby was primed as the anti-Phoenix (a concept Claremont later introduced as the First Fallen) which because of his last name, Drake, was dubbed the Dragon. There's some more information on Bobby's the Dragon being the equivalent of Jean's Phoenix here.
https://abetterplace.boards.net/thre...&scrollTo=5918

However, Claremont's never been interested in Bobby and his only contribution in X-Men Forever (2001) involved making the Stranger the villain of the series, so I don't think he would see Bobby as one of the "Immortal X-Men" the way he sees Jean, Logan, and Kitty to be. However, with Bobby essentially always being able to recreate himself from water, he's another character I can see surviving till the end of the universe so long as there's still moisture in the air.

[Arthas]

Oh look another misogynistic Scott fan who is okay with Scott dating Emma and jean but is mad when jean dates Scott and Logan

In my experience, they're pretty much all like this. My eyes were opened after the Ted Roberts incident. Funny how they claim to not stand Jean and want Scott with any female character except her but they still feel that Scott possesses Jean and she has no right to have any love interest besides him. Jealousy continues even after love allegedly dies.

You both realize that @Jackraow21 was saying Scott should date Emma AFTER Jean and Scott break up right and not both at the same time? It's nothing more then most shipping comments.

If anything it would more anti-triangle which I am some what in favor regarding my shipping as I grew older.

[ARkadelphia]

Maybe someone can help me understand this. But, why is it that Wolverine in some alternate Universe or some other Story Arc he is able to house the Phoenix. This is what the 3rd time he's had this Bird? I would think the Bird would go for Scott more Or grab Storm since she's a Psionic user and possess her.

It was to my understanding that only people with Powerful Psionic Energy can possess the Phoenix. So, why Wolverine.

Healing factor

[Icefanatic]

It has to do with the hints he seeded in Excalibur that Saturnyne was grooming Kitty to be her replacement as the Omniversal Majestrix, so you're right about the former. Although I can see the latter being used as an explanation as well since Claremont loves Kitty and always viewed her as Logan's natural heir so it doesn't surprise me that he'd come up with anything to keep Logan and Kitty around and together till the end.

X-Men Forever (2001) was a miniseries that talked about how some humans and mutants would in thousands of years replace the current cosmic entities of the universe and become the new ones. Jean and Bobby were two of the X-Men included in this series precisely because of their limitless omega-level status (back when being an omega-level mutant was actually a rare thing and not a title given out to any pet favorites of the current writer). I've heard a lot of theories from the Iceman fandom about how Bobby was primed as the anti-Phoenix (a concept Claremont later introduced as the First Fallen) which because of his last name, Drake, was dubbed the Dragon. There's some more information on Bobby's the Dragon being the equivalent of Jean's Phoenix here.
https://abetterplace.boards.net/thre...&scrollTo=5918

However, Claremont's never been interested in Bobby and his only contribution in X-Men Forever (2001) involved making the Stranger the villain of the series, so I don't think he would see Bobby as one of the "Immortal X-Men" the way he sees Jean, Logan, and Kitty to be. However, with Bobby essentially always being able to recreate himself from water, he's another character I can see surviving till the end of the universe so long as there's still moisture in the air.

I had a wealth of material for that thread, to the point I was struggling to shape it into a coherent narrative. Then the forum lapsed into inactivity and I got busy with other things. Some bits and pieces... I have no idea what Claremont thinks of the idea. I know the first writer at Marvel to actually have work published on it was J. M. DeMatteis while laying some of the groundwork in the first Iceman mini-series (1984) which was done in conjunction with his editor and then X-Men editor Louise Simonson. The series introduced Oblivion to the Marvel universe and functioned as an existential crisis for Iceman.

Before the multiverse was...I was. At the end of all things...I wait. I am the void...the breath between life and death...between death and rebirth. Between heaven--and hell. —Oblivion

Basically Bobby meets and falls for a girl, who travels through space and time fleeing her pursuers. Bobby end up meeting his parents before he was born and in a story that predates Back to the Future by about a year, Bobby's dad dies and Bobby get erased from existence. In the Marvel universe when one is erased from existence they end up in the Outer Void, a place outside of space and time and home to Oblivion, an abstract cosmic entity and the progenitor of Death. Oblivion predates the Multiverse, represents non-existence, and is opposed by Infinity and Eternity, his opposites.

Bobby finds out the girl is a daughter made from a fragment of Oblivion and battles Oblivion and wins. Oblivion rewrites time restoring Iceman and Bobby wakes up thinking the whole thing is a dream and more determined than ever to keep being Iceman..

Fans were left scratching their heads over the series(I left out a lot of weird stuff) and wondered if Oblivion was real or not. When he showed up in Quasar fans knew he was very real, which brought up a bunch of questions like what was his likely connection to Iceman being the Dragon, and why was he so nice to Iceman to the point of rewriting time to restore Iceman to existence.

There was also supposed to have been a story in the New Defenders with Iceman and the Dragon of the Moon but that got nixed when the creation of X-Factor resulted in the New Defenders being canceled.

Louise picked up the ball and ran with it when she took over writing X-Factor, starting with beginning to establish Iceman in connection with Norse mythology in the crossover into Thor which she did with her husband Walt, and introducing Opal which later led to the introduction of Clan Tatsu aka the Dragon Clan in her final issues on the book.

Most of that development went fallow in the 90's with the focus on Iceman's powers and his insecurities. It wasn't until Fabian Nicieza did X-Men Forever (2001)that things got rolling again. Then at a con later in 2001 one of the X-men editors revealed that there were 'aborted plans for Iceman and Clan Tatsu'. That 'Clan Tatsu was an ancient clan steeped in lore and prophecy that foretold the coming of a Dragon'. That 'the Dragon would not be born of the Clan but bound to it by blood.' 'That the Dragon would be destined to hold the whole world in it's grip' as depicted in the mon(crest) of Clan Tatsu.

Iceman fans tried to make sense of that, with most ascribing the 'prophecies' to either Scott Lobdell or Fabian Nicieza, but they almost certainly originated with Louise Simonson. The easiest part to figure out was 'not be born of the Clan but bound to it by blood'. That can be accomplished by sharing a child, and fans lamented that Opal had been discarded from the books before she could have a kid with Bobby.

If you go back and reread the two X-factor issues(X-Factor #63 & 64) that introduce Clan Tatsu with knowledge of the Dragon Prophecies, things make more sense. The leader is referred to as 'Tatsu'o' and most sources have listed that as his real name. It's not. That 'o at the end is called an honorific, and when it it used that way it usually is referring to Japan's royal family. Literally translated it is Dragonlord, or Lord Dragon. It's a title. 'Tatsu'o' is said to be an illegitimate bastard son of a clan lord, who joined the clan at the bottom and clawed his way up the ranks. That would allow him to claim the he was the foretold Dragon. His fanatical obsession with Opal marring one of his lieutenants and having a kid with them to produce an heir makes more sense, too. He wasn't just trying to created an heir, he was trying to prevent the true fulfillment of the prophesies.

A few months after that the second Iceman Mini-series is announced. Coincidence? The first issue starts off with a battle between Iceman and Foe-Dog, which is a take on Foo-Dog, what westerners call the Guardian Lions outside Buddhist Temples and Chinese restaurants. The Guardian Lion is a figure of Chinese folklore, with it's best known story recounting the Guardian Lion's battle with the Dragon, a battle that strongly parallels Iceman's battle with Foe-Dog. Opal reveals a kid she has kept from Bobby that she claims is his son. The first Iceman mini-bust produced by Bowen comes out halfway though the publication of the series with a bio that says Bobby has a kid with Opal. The kid is even shown with Ice-powers. But when Opal says she lied and the kid isn't his, Bobby says he believes her, probably because he wants to believe her as he was not ready to be a father. But the readers knew not only did bobby have a kid with Opal, part of the prophecy had been fulfilled.

The second of the known parts was latter fulfilled when Bobby froze and took over the world during the 'Frozen' arc in Astonishing X-Men. I'm not going into depth on that right now but Iceman seemed set to ascend to his destiny as the Dragon, which some suspected would require a return to the Outer Void. The problem, the only way a living being can enter the Outer Void is by being erased from existence.

The Iceman from the 'Frozen' arc was erased from existence in Uncanny Avengers when that entire timeline was destroyed, which is why Daken, who was resurrected in the future of that timeline, is the only person who remembers the events of the 'Frozen' arc.

There's a lot more but I don't have the time for it all right now. I'll probably go back to work on that thread you linked soon and put a lot of it there. While Iceman is the Dragon has been worked on by a bunch of writers in various ways over the decades, it is Louise Simonson's baby as much as anyone's and I would love to see her get to bring it fully to fruition after all these years.

[Jackraow21]

You both realize that @Jackraow21 was saying Scott should date Emma AFTER Jean and Scott break up right and not both at the same time? It's nothing more then most shipping comments.

If anything it would more anti-triangle which I am some what in favor regarding my shipping as I grew older.

Also, I'm not a Scott fan. I'm a Logan fan. And a Cable fan. Don't have any moral issues with the poly thing either. I've just always found both Jean and Scott more interesting during those periods where they were apart as characters -- Jean when Scott was assumed "dead" and possessed by Apocalypse (really liked her and Storm briefly leading that Uncanny X-men team with Beast, Gambit and Cable and her interactions with Nathan there) and Scott during the long period where Jean was dead and he was with Emma. Just a personal preference. Not rooted in anything pro-Scott or anti-Jean, much less anything anti-female.

I try hard not to roll my eyes at things like this too hard and just let them roll off my back and move on, but this is a classic example of why you shouldn't ASSume things about people you don't know. At least IMO.

Moving on...

[Thundershot]

When it comes down to it, Rachel has been the one with the best control with the Phoenix Force….