How much longer do you guys think before the marriage is back for good?

[Mister Mets]

Yes, bibles cover the characters and the backstory, and are used to keep the continuity straight.

They have a brief pitch outline of where the story might go.

But it’s not broken down much beyond that. They certainly do not list out every character's arc and specific subplot for the next 50 episodes.



A sense.

A sense is not mapping out 5000 episodes in advance, as you unrealistically insist is the metric for comic books. The usual ask from networks/platforms is an outline. An outline. Which may and does change in the actual writing of the episodes. For subsequent season renewals, they may want a new pitch first. Which is again, a brief outline.



Yes! Stories change as they are crafted! New ideas come up! Something happens in real life that sparks a new idea! Or a collaborator on the team has an even better story avenue! Or you have a late night epiphany that changes the entire trajectory! Or any number of things occur! Because stories are infinite, and in their creation they are malleable, changeable, grow, mutate, and swerve!

Which is why your insistence on knowing 500 issues worth of subplots upfront is a non-starter. Storytelling just doesn’t work that way.



Uh-uh-uh. Stop shifting the goalposts.

You must outline every issue of Amazing Spider-Man for the next 30 years, or else the concept obviously cannot support a long running series!

.



They are speaking of the duration of the marriage. When MJ was "dead" and when they were separated still counts as the characters being married. Not whether you thought the quality was consistent. In fact, since you seem to want to count all your possible subplots, MJ/Peter is believed dead and Peter & MJ separate so one of them can work through trauma are very valid, dramatic and can be incredibly emotionally rich subplots.



Great. List all the tradeoffs, quantify their value, and explain where you got the value scale from and how the scale works, and how/why you assigned the value to each trade-off. Go for it!



Perhaps you should explain what you think they do, then.



And we've proven that it does. Because ideas are infinite.

That does not mean there are not limits (and there's really only one).

But it does mean that the number of stories that can be created within that limit are infinite.

I didn't have to say series bibles have to list every subplot. They can vary in terms of how in depth they go, but it is important to recognize the long-term plans.

We don't have to map out 5,000 issues in advance. But if you're making an argument that this is better for Marvel in the long term, there should be a sense of a broader arc and how it would sustain many comics. One problem with some of the suggestions is that it's a bit like the episodic stories where nothing has an impact, and noting changes from storyline to storyline, and that's antithetical to Spdier-man.

I'll note there are two different contingents of the anti-OMD crowd, and they've got different views on long-term plans.
One wants Peter and MJ to get older, and have a family.
Another thinks that Peter and MJ could stay as a childless married couple nebulously in their late 20s to mid-thirties for decades of comics.
These are going to be radically different approaches. With one, the characters are changing in very noticeable ways but there's a clean sense of progression. With the other, Marvel resets the characters at a slightly different stage than they currently do.

Stories can change, but writers can't assume that something new will come up. It's better to plan ahead even if you might end up doing something else (all of the plans for MJ as an actress go out the window when a storyline about the character taking a temporary job really clicks.)

MJ being believed dead and a marital separation seem like wells Marvel can't return to.

I think we could list the tradeoffs. I didn't say we could quantify their values. That's also not something likely to be accomplished in one post.

It's something we can to in a discussion, although that's more likely to happen if we don't waste time on bullshit like personal insults or arguments about the motives of other people.

Marvel tells stories and manages a brand.

[TinkerSpider]

You folks make every thread about this. If there was only one thread dedicated to discussing this it would be easier. There are at least six going on right now, specifically. And you invade other threads as well. Someone turned a thread about the death of John Romita Sr into a thread about how Marvel was purposely trolling you by including his Amazing Annual 21 cover in their tribute. I could start a thread about the first appearance of Rocket Racer and someone would be on there complaining about OMD.

There are many active threads where this patently isn’t true.

Coming into a marriage thread and complaining it is about the marriage appears to be clearly counter productive and a plainly obvious road to frustration, however.

[hobnob]

But Peter's not lonely all the time.

If we had a writer on the book who probed something other than Power And Responsibility(TM) the main emotion that Peter would be feeling is that he's alone. He's alone in the superhero community and he's alone in his personal life. Sure he's got friends and his Aunt who's dating Methuselah, and he has on-off moments with various superheros, but you can have a vibrant social life and still face your challenges alone. His baseline is that he is trapped in solitude.

Mary Jane is the only person who truly understands him.

[WebLurker]

Marvel tells stories and manages a brand.

Have yet to hear a good explanation of how the OMD comics fit with the brand, esp. since the brand at large is pretty anti-OMD in terms of content.

[chicainery]

Have yet to hear a good explanation of how the OMD comics fit with the brand, esp. since the brand at large is pretty anti-OMD in terms of content.

I didn't read any of Wells' ASM after Beyond until about a couple of weeks ago. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed the first 30 issues that I've read. I'm not sure if I would feel the same if I read the issues as they were coming out or not, but I don't think that MJ has been written badly. She seems like she's written consistantly and her motivation doesn't seem out of character.

I was a fan of Spider-man before One More Day, and am still a fan. I have enjoyed pre and post OMD stories. My preference is that someday Peter and MJ will remember the events in OMD and something positive will come out of it.

It's the whole deal with Mephisto that leaves such a sour taste. Any talk of "managing a brand" is hard to swallow when deals with the Devil are made by characters that are all about responsibility.

OMD was a vehicle that got the characters to where Marvel wanted them to be, but jeez...what a terrible way to go. As an elseworlds or What If? book, OMD is pretty good. I have reread it a few times since it was first published and it still doesn't seem real.

[Mister Mets]

Have yet to hear a good explanation of how the OMD comics fit with the brand, esp. since the brand at large is pretty anti-OMD in terms of content.

Marvel wanted Peter to be single without a divorce and without MJ getting killed.

There's the explanation.

[godisawesome]

On a more peaceable note than usual, I think it’s interesting to note this:

Intellectually, there was nothing standing in the way of Quesada and others who dislike the marriage from simply resetting things to a perpetual “MJ is *the* love interest, and will occupy that role forever, she just won’t be married to him” status quo… which likely wouldn’t have been nearly as “provocative” or wasteful as the status quo they went with.

There’s no reason why “no marriage” must equal a handful of problematically written, often uninspired, and generally at best ignored or tolerated love interests who can’t go anywhere serious, or even more deeply problematic and often painfully lazy writing of MJ that often comes off as trolling.

Heck, there’s nothing saying “no marriage” must equal “soap opera;” TV shows like Gunsmoke had designated love interests in an unending storyline that was only limited by producer-interest and the mortality of Marshall Dillon and and Miss Kitty’s actors.

The big “trade off” of the OMD era has largely been that page time, ink, and resources are wasted on love interests even supportive editorial wants to keep restrained and replaceable at all times, or wasting time on stories that are deeply unpopular for MJ.

We’d still argue if it was just a “no marriage” thing, but is the issue really aggravating things more that the particular type of “no marriage” philosophy editorial has is more toxic than it needs to be?

[TinkerSpider]

I didn't have to say series bibles have to list every subplot. They can vary in terms of how in depth they go, but it is important to recognize the long-term plans.

We don't have to map out 5,000 issues in advance. But if you're making an argument that this is better for Marvel in the long term, there should be a sense of a broader arc and how it would sustain many comics.

First you asked how the marriage would work with Paper Doll story.

We answered you.

You deemed the answer insufficient because it was just one story arc.

I asked you to give me an example that would suffice.

You answered with options, and I chose the first year of Wells's run.

You deemed that again insufficient.

So I laid out multiple options for subplots that could sustain years of comics, from MJ becoming a counselor to the younger superhero set, to MJ taking over the role played by Dr. Kafka as the psychiatrist at Ravenscroft - which could also be fertile ground for conflict with Peter, as she would be working to rehabiliate his enemies - to MJ becoming a costume designer for heroes, to MJ becoming a teacher at Miles's or Kamala's (or perhaps Bailey's or Lunella's schools) to MJ teaming up with Felicia as private investigators to MJ playing a superhero in a TV series.

To which you said, no, no, not like that.

At this point, tell me why I should believe you are conversing in good faith? Because the goalpost keep moving.

One problem with some of the suggestions is that it's a bit like the episodic stories where nothing has an impact, and noting changes from storyline to storyline, and that's antithetical to Spdier-man.

Surprised to hear you call ASM from 2008-2018 and 2022 to now antithetical to Marvel, but sure.

Also, not at all true. In my Paper Doll scenario, Peter comes to a realization that if he continued in this line of work, he would be hurting MJ and her coworkers. MJ realizes she and Peter are stronger team together than apart, even when she's angry at him.

The Dead Language, etc, arc gives MJ motivation for a new status quo as a psychology student with a calling to work with people who find themselves caught in supervillain fights. Meanwhile, I didn't call it out as I wrote that very quickly, but the story would also alllow Peter to try out fatherhood - without making him a father - and both their attitudes about being parents are challenged.

Now, you might not like the ideas, and that's fine. I never claimed they were Eisner-worthy. But they are still ideas - and there are plenty more to be had.

Stories can change, but writers can't assume that something new will come up.

Oh, yes, they can. In fact, that should be added to death and taxes as the only certainties in life. Because ideas are infinite (and deadlines are motivating). And even then, the story will always change in the writing - and the revising - and the editing - and the final pass.

And then the story changes again once it's in the hands of the reader, but that's a different discussion.

It's better to plan ahead even if you might end up doing something else (all of the plans for MJ as an actress go out the window when a storyline about the character taking a temporary job really clicks.)

I gave you general plans. You dismissed them.

MJ being believed dead and a marital separation seem like wells Marvel can't return to.

Says who?

It's all in the execution.

It's something we can to in a discussion, although that's more likely to happen if we don't waste time on bullshit like personal insults or arguments about the motives of other people.

I agree, it would be great if people could stop throwing Dunning-Kruger around, for example. Just sayin'.

Marvel tells stories and manages a brand.

Sure, and all of those stories are, y'know, stories and they all fit the brand of being for general audiences and telling a thrilling superhero story with sequential art.

[Spider-Tiger]

This is really one of my biggest complaints, and you’re right. Swap Carlie for MJ and the core story and how it plays out is identical, because MJ is a plot device, not a person as written here.

I tolerate a lot of weird stories, but to do THIS story with Mary Jane, who has an EXTREMELY defined backstory at this point, feels utterly bizarre, as none of it factors into her behavior or feelings or how she expresses herself.

Wells’s story only works if you just ignore or don’t care about literally a defining aspect of Mary Jane’s character that drove her growth for 20+ years. It’s like they desperately want a clean slate to work with - one where MJ didn’t have her fear of a family and children forced on her against her wishes, or where Norman wasn’t abusive to Harry growing up, or where Felicia and Peter would have worked through their issues instead of just mutually giving up, etc.

But focusing on MJ, there is almost no “Mary Jane” in this current Mary Jane. Not “the best friend”, or the support, or the lover, or her family and history, or her ambitions and dreams and desires…

… Who is this woman?

Agreed entirely.

So you're saying you prefer the character when she had deep-seated commitment issues and believe she became worse when she started to work through her trauma? To me, that's not seeing the full picture.

I think MJ reconciling her past traumas and realizing that her behaviors were an unhealthy coping mechanism (as what happened with the marriage) is a great character arc that serves as a logical follow up to Conway's character work in the 70s with that panel you referenced and other material in his run (whereby MJ struggles with commitment/vulnerability issues and a concern for her friend's well-being, but ultimately chooses to be there for her friend in spite of those fears.) And it's especially interesting that it thematically mirrors the central protagonist. A protagonist who said in his very first story: " From now on im just looking out for number one...that's me!" to unfortunate consequence. In essence, the work leading to the marriage elevated MJ to being a secondary protagonist by exploring her psyche, giving her an admirable and relatable journey, and doing so in a way that worked with the larger themes of Spider-man.

No one is arguing against some of the 90s work being trash, but I don't think any of that is inherent to marriage. Committing to loved ones does not require that one sacrifice their happiness and dreams or doom them to a life of abuse. I think that's a meaningful message to convey in a series like Spider-Man.

And this complaint seems a bit disingenuous when the current run saw MJ "chained" to children and trapped in a relationship much like her sister, and yet completely ignored the character's backstory. This could have happened to Carlie Cooper and it wouldn't have made a difference because MJ's purpose is to solely serve the demands of the plot. That does not make for compelling storytelling or compelling characters. And it's especially regressive for a character like MJ.

I just wanted to add to the above:

To me, Spider-man and his world is inherently optimistic. Even his greatest tragedy (The Death of Gwen Stacy) alludes to the fact that Peter has support and will make it out okay. Is living a life of responsibility worth it? IMO despite short term sacrifice, the answer in a book like Spider-man should be a resounding yes. Perhaps not materially so: it may not give you fancy clothes or fancy cars, but in terms of self-actualization and self-fulfillment, absolutely. Peter is absolutely a better human being than what he was at the beginning of AF #15.

And this theme (the positive effects of responsibility or negative outcomes for a lack thereof) should permeate through the book's cast. Having Mary Jane overcome selfish behavior caused by an irrational fear of commitment (eventually through the ultimate commitment: marriage) works in tandem with this theme. They could have kept the status quo as MJ grappling with this irrational fear (as Defalco and Stern intended) but IMO that would have prevented the character arc from maximizing its full potential. Regardless, by the time OMD rolled around, the genie was already out of the bottle for 20 years and everything from BND to the present has made it evidently clear that MJ is in a far worse position without the marriage.

[hobnob]

Marvel wanted Peter to be single without a divorce and without MJ getting killed.

There's the explanation.

Marvel can verb an expletive.

[hobnob]

Agreed entirely.



I just wanted to add to the above:

To me, Spider-man and his world is inherently optimistic. Even his greatest tragedy (The Death of Gwen Stacy) alludes to the fact that Peter has support and will make it out okay. Is living a life of responsibility worth it? IMO despite short term sacrifice, the answer in a book like Spider-man should be a resounding yes. Perhaps not materially so: it may not give you fancy clothes or fancy cars, but in terms of self-actualization and self-fulfillment, absolutely. Peter is absolutely a better human being than what he was at the beginning of AF #15.

And this theme (the positive effects of responsibility or negative outcomes for a lack thereof) should permeate through the book's cast. Having Mary Jane overcome selfish behavior caused by an irrational fear of commitment (eventually through the ultimate commitment: marriage) works in tandem with this theme. They could have kept the status quo as MJ grappling with this irrational fear (as Defalco and Stern intended) but IMO that would have prevented the character arc from maximizing its full potential. Regardless, by the time OMD rolled around, the genie was already out of the bottle for 20 years and everything from BND to the present has made it evidently clear that MJ is in a far worse position without the marriage.

Very good critical perspective. Enjoyed that.

I would add though that MJ has had good stories since OMD. At first she was back to being tarted around by writers as some other guy’s boyfriend, but she has moments of heroism throughout Slott’s time on ASM.

[Lifetap]

The back and forth on what stories can be told between marriage and non-marriage are largely pointless, as I don't think any story you want to tell makes a difference whether they are single or married as just some minor tweaking can be enough to make it work in either case as has been shown by some other comments.

The cases where minor tweaking wouldn't work would mean we are spending a lot of time on the topic which I think is unlikely.

Like a 'Divorce' story and a 'Breakup' story can hit all of the same beats on a high level, the only difference is if you really spend a lot of time with it, like with a Divorce story you may have a plot point on splitting assets or something that you wouldn't have with just a simple breakup story (in most cases, maybe they could argue about a dog or something), but for the most part not a lot of stories go to that level because again it detracts from the main superhero story stuff.

I think the only real obvious thing with stories that differentiate the marriage vs non-marriage status quo is that a marriage relationship story can mostly only be used once (with some exceptions), where a lot of single story beats can be repeated based on the love interest being a new person.

Like for a single Peter story you can keep doing the 'Wow I like Peter but he sure is flaky' plot point, or the 'Will she find out he is Spider-Man and how will she react' but I find eventually people just get tired of these plots that they just become groan inducing as they become largely predictable the more often they are recycled.

[WebLurker]

Marvel wanted Peter to be single without a divorce and without MJ getting killed.

There's the explanation.

Like I said, no good explanation, considering that the OMD status quo reflects the brand only slightly better than Injustice does Superman.

[Mister Mets]

First you asked how the marriage would work with Paper Doll story.

We answered you.

You deemed the answer insufficient because it was just one story arc.

I asked you to give me an example that would suffice.

You answered with options, and I chose the first year of Wells's run.

You deemed that again insufficient.

So I laid out multiple options for subplots that could sustain years of comics, from MJ becoming a counselor to the younger superhero set, to MJ taking over the role played by Dr. Kafka as the psychiatrist at Ravenscroft - which could also be fertile ground for conflict with Peter, as she would be working to rehabiliate his enemies - to MJ becoming a costume designer for heroes, to MJ becoming a teacher at Miles's or Kamala's (or perhaps Bailey's or Lunella's schools) to MJ teaming up with Felicia as private investigators to MJ playing a superhero in a TV series.

To which you said, no, no, not like that.

At this point, tell me why I should believe you are conversing in good faith? Because the goalpost keep moving.



Surprised to hear you call ASM from 2008-2018 and 2022 to now antithetical to Marvel, but sure.

Also, not at all true. In my Paper Doll scenario, Peter comes to a realization that if he continued in this line of work, he would be hurting MJ and her coworkers. MJ realizes she and Peter are stronger team together than apart, even when she's angry at him.

The Dead Language, etc, arc gives MJ motivation for a new status quo as a psychology student with a calling to work with people who find themselves caught in supervillain fights. Meanwhile, I didn't call it out as I wrote that very quickly, but the story would also alllow Peter to try out fatherhood - without making him a father - and both their attitudes about being parents are challenged.

Now, you might not like the ideas, and that's fine. I never claimed they were Eisner-worthy. But they are still ideas - and there are plenty more to be had.



Oh, yes, they can. In fact, that should be added to death and taxes as the only certainties in life. Because ideas are infinite (and deadlines are motivating). And even then, the story will always change in the writing - and the revising - and the editing - and the final pass.

And then the story changes again once it's in the hands of the reader, but that's a different discussion.




I gave you general plans. You dismissed them.



Says who?

It's all in the execution.



I agree, it would be great if people could stop throwing Dunning-Kruger around, for example. Just sayin'.



Sure, and all of those stories are, y'know, stories and they all fit the brand of being for general audiences and telling a thrilling superhero story with sequential art.

I mentioned the reality that this is something that should support a lot of comics, well before I asked anything about the Paper Doll story.

Not immediately. The question is whether it will allow for another 1,500+ issues of comics.

Absolute proof is impossible here. That said, people who want the marriage back under current circumstances will have to make the case that more than a decade of comics about Peter and MJ as parents of kids too young to be nepo baby superheroes is compelling.

i

I didn't say fans have to be the ones to make the argument, but someone is going to have to make the case that this will be better in the long- term in order to convince the higher-ups. And we can't assume someone else will come up with it if you can't.

I didn't assume the person doesn't exist. A few people here were bothered by the idea that someone needs to make the case that more than a decade of comics about Peter and MJ as parents of kids too young to be nepo baby superheroes (or another decade as a consistently childless couple) is compelling.

Hell, I posted a potential big picture for a married Peter and MJ that would take us until Amazing Spider-Man #1,200 (assuming they're allowed to have kids.

This doesn't really match the rhetoric about how much better the marriage is than the post-OMD status quo.

If it were that much better, it could outperform Amazing Spider-Man.

Marvel seems to believe that the marriage is a problem in the long term, so they wouldn't bring it back unless it were obviously better.

I don't think you could do stories where Peter is in a funk after a break-up with MJ when he's still happily married to her.

That was the status quo for much of the first half of Brand New Day.

You could sort of do some of the A-plots, but not all of them. There's also the question of how the writers would be influenced by editorial direction.

If it weren't for One More Day, JMS would have stuck around Spider-Man.

We also wouldn't have the unmasking or Back in Black, because those were conceived with One More Day in mind.

It's easy to imagine that if things were a little different, we wouldn't have the creative spark that led to popular stories.

For example, Dan Slott came up with the idea for Superior Spider-Man while writing a sequence for Amazing Spider-Man #600. If he's not writing a Dr Octopus story where Spider-Man uses his brainwaves to access Ock's tech, there's no Superior Spider-Man.

Presumably, he'd come up with something else, but probably not on the same level (just as someone who rolls a five at dice would be unlikely to do as well or better if given a mulligan) since that was lightning in a bottle.

I'll note I'm not asking for the A-plots here (although that would be welcome especially if it works with Peter & MJ together), just a sense that it's easy to go for a compelling series of subplots with Peter and MJ for an extended amount fo time.

I'll note my comment about Paper Doll wasn't about that story, but how you do the first eight months of Brand New Day.

But it probably wouldn't. When the context in which the stories are written changes, the stories change.

I am curious on how to tell stories in which Peter's in a funk after a break-up with MJ while he's married to MJ.

We could pick the first eight months of Brand New Day, including the issue where MJ's helping him over loudspeakers, but he doesn't know it's her.

Comics aren't burgers.

It's supposed to be different every time.

My comments on this are consistently about the long-term. I'm not asking how the marriage works as a B-plot in a standalone story, but how it works as an evolving and changing part of the status quo (I do get that some people want the status quo reset to the early 90s when Peter & MJ were a happily married childless couple living in an apartment, but that view has to be articulated first.

But you can see that my goalpost has been consistently ambitious from the beginning.

Things changed from story to story under the Brand New Day writers, Slott and Wells. Things in a comic have consequences months and years later, as well as the next issue.

I'm not dismissing your ideas. My point wasn't that these would be bad stories, but that Marvel would need a similar output for decades.

The Dunning-Kruger comments come in response to people who are confident they know more than the pros.

[hobnob]

The Dunning-Kruger comments come in response to people who are confident they know more than the pros.

If you knew what Dunning-Kruger was you wouldn't be including that snipe at the bottom of a wall of text replying to your own comment.