The Heroes Return Era of the Avengers

[Mister Mets]

Never heard of this version, is there a link on the Marvel Wiki?

CBR had an article about the release of the unabridged version in a 2011 collection.

https://www.cbr.com/reviving-mark-waids-red-skull/

[comictimes]

Thx, I'll have to confer with my copy of the regular version.

[Zauriel]

The Avengers Volume 3 #1-3
After 33 issues of related material, I finally got to the opening arc of the Heroes Return Avengers in my read-through of the Heroes Return era of the Avengers. I remember liking this story, and thinking it’s probably worth including in an Avengers Top 10, or in a Busiek Top 10. I may have undersold it.
In the first issue, a new threat calls together all of the Avengers as monsters from different mythos attack all over the world, including an opening scene which shows what 18 Avengers were up to. More are summoned to the mansion, including future members Justice & Firestar, who were mainly there because one of their friends got attacked. One thing I just love is how even in this super-dense story, different heroes have their moments to shine. Even D-Man, who is generally treated as a joke. Justice might be the best version of a common comics trope of a future member working with the team on a special mission.

In the second half of the story, a magical villain has remade the Marvel Universe so that it’s a fantasy setting. It’s been done a few times and done pretty well (Marvel 1602 and an Uncanny X-men story with Kulan Gath come to mind) but never as well. Part of it may be that George Perez excels in fantasy just as much as he does in superhero action. Some of the members of the team remember the real world, and it’s connected to how seriously they feel about themselves as Avengers, which just works really well as an exploration of what it means to be an Avenger before the team is finalized. It is a bit meta, but it’s not indulgent (except in the way a delicious brownie is indulgent). The team-up of all the Avengers in Issue 1 takes a dark turn with most of the team possessed, which means they’re a challenge to the handful trying to bring back the world they remember.
Busiek & Perez work very well together. Both are great at scenes that are just dense, and adding little background details. I have the first year in an oversized hardcover, and it looks fantastic. There’s a panel where a villain eats an apple while dismissing an underling’s concerns that shows her attitude and arrogance. The Avengers have a sense of lived-in camaraderie, and history. It’s also easy to overlook how Perez basically redesigned every member in a medieval setting. Even cameo moments reveal interesting things about the characters.

There are some really impressive scenes, like the return of Thor- believed dead since Heroes Return, and another Avenger returning; setting up an excellent long-term plot. It's a hell of a start. And as impressed as I was with this read-through, I know that it's been better.
A+

Busiek seems to do at least three types of stories really well. One is a grand epic where one guy witnesses and interacts with multiple big events either across several years (Marvels, Secret Identity: Superman) or just at a pivotal stage like the first year (Astro City: Confession, Amazing Fantasy, Iron Man: The Iron Age.) He’s also great with shorter pieces about how someone’s affected by these grand forces (Astro City: the Nearness of You, the public’s varied reaction to the Thunderbolts.) The opening Avengers arc shows that he can be really good at big, dense events (My favorite in this category is the Ultron saga, which is my favorite of the era.)

The Avengers Volume 3 #1-3. Are those the issues where Mordred refers to Morgana Le Fay as "aunt"? I recall she is not only his aunt but also his mother.

Mordred is the product of an incestuous union made by King Arthur and his half-sister Morgana.

I learned of this when I watched Excalibur (film).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_(film)

I wonder why Kurt Busiek omitted that reference? Was it the CCA (Comics Code Authority)?

[Mister Mets]

Avengers Annual 1999
This annual, by John Francis Moore and Leonardo Marco, focuses on Jarvis. He recalls Black Widow’s efforts to get a new Avengers team in place during the Heroes Reborn era, and why that failed, and suspects there’s a connection to a new menace as modified Sentinels similar to the Avengers damage the city in the present.
We get some nice details, like when Jarvis refuses constant offers to write a tell-all book about the Avengers. Moore captures the voices of Busiek’s Avengers well- Captain America is strict, Justice feels uncomfortable, Thor’s idea of a reward is fitting, etc. The focus is largely on characters who aren’t part of the book, since they weren’t sent to the Heroes Reborn world and aren’t part of the subsequent team, but that works for this story, where the current Avengers team is pushed into a conflict that kicked off with their departure. Leonardo Manco’s style is grittier than usual for the series, but it’s a good fit for the grim mood of flashbacks when the Avengers are believed dead, and for the jerry-rigged tech of the antagonist. The villain is also a good fit, just to help tie everything together. And the ending highlights how thoughtful Jarvis is, as he reaches out to somebody who may be overlooked in the current run, given their significance to the team before the Heroes Reborn relaunch.
B+



Thor #8/ Peter Parker Spider-Man #2
This is a crossover between two titles illustrated by John Romita Jr. It comes at a weird time for Spider-Man. Howard Mackie was simultaneously writing the relaunches of Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker Spider-Man, where Peter Parker quit being Spider-Man and someone else took over. With Amazing Spider-Man #2, Peter Parker was back in the suit, but Amazing Spider-Man #3 and Peter Parker Spider-Man #3 were set immediately after, so technically Peter Parker Spider-Man #2 would have to be set after the events of Peter Parker Spider-Man #3. In collections, it’s set earlier, so there’s one read of the story that Peter just decides to put on the Spider-Man costume one more time here, before adopting it full-time in Amazing Spider-Man #2.


The opening continues the torment of Odin, as the new bad guys effortlessly defeat Balder the Brave. Rhyming demons attack Earth, as Peter visits Jack Olsen’s hospital with Aunt May, to help her with her meds. Thor and Spidey team up against the monsters, but Aunt May needs her pills, and Peter forgot to hand in her prescription.
It’s fine. Spider-Man and Thor have a dynamic of mutual respect, but not quite understanding one another. The Aunt May plot may seem lightweight, but I’m fine with it. Sometimes elderly people are vulnerable. The interactions with Peter also reveal some information about the supporting cast. Thor's new girlfriend is nice. A coworker has a red flag.
B

[Mister Mets]

Heroes Return era ended when Kurt Busiek left the Marvel Comics.

I'm going to try to go with this thread up until Disassembled.

I know Jurgens was on Thor for a long time, until Disassembled.

But there are also some stories by Busiek after he left the Avengers, like the JLA/ Avengers mini-series and the Avengers/ Thunderbolts mini-series.

The Avengers Volume 3 #1-3. Are those the issues where Mordred refers to Morgana Le Fay as "aunt"? I recall she is not only his aunt but also his mother.

Mordred is the product of an incestuous union made by King Arthur and his half-sister Morgana.

I learned of this when I watched Excalibur (film).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_(film)

I wonder why Kurt Busiek omitted that reference? Was it the CCA (Comics Code Authority)?

It could also seem out of place in regular superhero comics.

This was a few years before Ultimate Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's relationship was explicit.

[Zauriel]

I'm going to try to go with this thread up until Disassembled.

I know Jurgens was on Thor for a long time, until Disassembled.

But there are also some stories by Busiek after he left the Avengers, like the JLA/ Avengers mini-series and the Avengers/ Thunderbolts mini-series.

.

Prior to the Disassembled, Captain America, Iron Man and Daredevil's secret identities were revealed to the public.

As the Heroes Return ended, Jake Olson was no longer in the comics.

[Kurt Busiek]

The Avengers Volume 3 #1-3. Are those the issues where Mordred refers to Morgana Le Fay as "aunt"? I recall she is not only his aunt but also his mother.

Mordred is the product of an incestuous union made by King Arthur and his half-sister Morgana.

I wonder why Kurt Busiek omitted that reference? Was it the CCA (Comics Code Authority)?

The Mordred of myth is generally presented as either the son of Arthur and his half-sister Morgause or the son of Lot and his wife Morgause. Morgause (in some legends named Anna) is Queen of Orkney, and the sister or half-sister of Morgan le Fay. So Morgan is Mordred's aunt.

Marvel's Modred is not quite the same character (spells his name differently, for one), but I figured I'd connect him up to the mythic Mordred by making him Morgan's nephew, at least. Or have him say he was, which may not be the same thing.

Whether he's also the son of Arthur (or Lot) and Morgause, I figured I'd leave open for possible future revelations.

In EXCALIBUR, John Boorman merged Morgause and Morgana into a single character, and made other changes as well. But movies are fake, not like comics or myths. You can't trust movies.

kdb

[Mister Mets]

Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #5-7
This is an odd selection, with four different stories spread out over three issues, one of which is double-sized. It seems it could’ve been done with two single issue stories and a bigger issue with a back-up. It seems to be an ode to how Captain America shared space in Tales of Suspense (complete with an Iron Man encounter), though I wonder if there was some additional editorial reason to split it up to avoid delays or something.
In issues 5-6, Ron Garney and Mark Waid tell the story of an early team-up between Iron Man and Captain America, where Iron Man is brainwashed by aliens to use his firepower against a guy he sees as a glorified acrobat. The main thing is that Iron Man keeps underestimating Cap, although it does fit the character. And there are some impressive moments, like when Captain America uses his shield to keep Iron Man from hitting a bus full of civilians.

In the same issues, Mark Waid, Brian K Vaughan (working over Waid’s plot for the half of the story in #5) have Cap go into an asylum because someone there knows all sorts of secrets. The Chameleon’s also interested in that guy, which leads to all sorts of chaos.
In #6-7, Roger Stern and Ron Frenz reimagine Captain America in the revolutionary war in the story of an ancestor of Steve Rogers who dresses a lot like Captain America. It’s a story that’s been done before (reminds me of the story of how Thomas Wayne dressed up in a bat costume to fight intruders, so technically he was the first Batman) although it makes sense with Steve imagining what’s going on in an ancestor’s diary, since he is an artist .

In the shortest piece in #7, Brian K Vaughan and Steve Harris feature a conversation between Captain America and FDR, highlighting what FDR had meant to him growing up in the Great Depression, and why FDR would believe scrawny Steve Rogers was just the right guy for the super-soldier serum.
These are solid stories in an anthology. It’s worth checking out for fans of Cap, Silver Age Marvel, or the talent involved. The stories aren't essential, and can feature similar beats, but those involve Captain America doing something cool.
B+

[Zauriel]

The Mordred of myth is generally presented as either the son of Arthur and his half-sister Morgause or the son of Lot and his wife Morgause. Morgause (in some legends named Anna) is Queen of Orkney, and the sister or half-sister of Morgan le Fay. So Morgan is Mordred's aunt.

Marvel's Modred is not quite the same character (spells his name differently, for one), but I figured I'd connect him up to the mythic Mordred by making him Morgan's nephew, at least. Or have him say he was, which may not be the same thing.

Whether he's also the son of Arthur (or Lot) and Morgause, I figured I'd leave open for possible future revelations.

In EXCALIBUR, John Boorman merged Morgause and Morgana into a single character, and made other changes as well. But movies are fake, not like comics or myths. You can't trust movies.

kdb

I see. thank you, sir, for your explanation. I thought the movie was loosely based on a French tale called "Le Morte d'Arthur" (The death of Arthur),

[Zauriel]

In #6-7, Roger Stern and Ron Frenz reimagine Captain America in the revolutionary war in the story of an ancestor of Steve Rogers who dresses a lot like Captain America. It’s a story that’s been done before (reminds me of the story of how Thomas Wayne dressed up in a bat costume to fight intruders, so technically he was the first Batman) although it makes sense with Steve imagining what’s going on in an ancestor’s diary, since he is an artist .
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B+

Some fans may say Steve Rogers' ancestor was a fictional character that came from his dreams. But William Taurey's account disputes it.


https://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2...-lordship.html







However, other stories made it clear that Steve Rogers was the son of Irish immigrants. There were American born Irish in the 13 colonies during the Revolutionary War. How many Irish Americans would return to Ireland prior to Rogers' birth? Ireland in the 19th century was hardly paradise. It was plagued by a potato famine that left so many people dead and forced many other people to immigrate to America.

[Kurt Busiek]

I see. thank you, sir, for your explanation. I thought the movie was loosely based on a French tale called "Le Morte d'Arthur" (The death of Arthur),

It is (though it's an English book, written in Middle English with a French title). But that book is a prose reworking of earlier stories of Arthur.

And in LE MORTE D'ARTHUR, Morgan le Fay is Mordred's aunt, too. The movie, as noted, merges Morgan and Morgause into a single character.

kdb

[Nomads1]

The Mordred of myth is generally presented as either the son of Arthur and his half-sister Morgause or the son of Lot and his wife Morgause. Morgause (in some legends named Anna) is Queen of Orkney, and the sister or half-sister of Morgan le Fay. So Morgan is Mordred's aunt.

Marvel's Modred is not quite the same character (spells his name differently, for one), but I figured I'd connect him up to the mythic Mordred by making him Morgan's nephew, at least. Or have him say he was, which may not be the same thing.

Whether he's also the son of Arthur (or Lot) and Morgause, I figured I'd leave open for possible future revelations.

In EXCALIBUR, John Boorman merged Morgause and Morgana into a single character, and made other changes as well. But movies are fake, not like comics or myths. You can't trust movies.

kdb

What are your thoughts on Mike W. Barr and Brian Bolland's Camelot 3000, Mr. Busiek? I know they took many liberties with the lore, but, personally, I appreciated the final result.

Peace

[Mister Mets]

Some fans may say Steve Rogers' ancestor was a fictional character that came from his dreams. But William Taurey's account disputes it.


https://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2...-lordship.html







However, other stories made it clear that Steve Rogers was the son of Irish immigrants. There were American born Irish in the 13 colonies during the Revolutionary War. How many Irish Americans would return to Ireland prior to Rogers' birth? Ireland in the 19th century was hardly paradise. It was plagued by a potato famine that left so many people dead and forced many other people to immigrate to America.

I forgot about the Kirby connection to the Stern/ Frenz story.

That takes precedence in determining what's canon.

[Zauriel]

I forgot about the Kirby connection to the Stern/ Frenz story.

That takes precedence in determining what's canon.

Yes, Jack Kirby was also the same writer who made Cap's ancestor a figment of his dreams, even though Steve also mentioned having a diary left by his ancestor in the next panel.

[Kurt Busiek]

What are your thoughts on Mike W. Barr and Brian Bolland's Camelot 3000, Mr. Busiek? I know they took many liberties with the lore, but, personally, I appreciated the final result.

I haven't read it since it came out. I know the art was gorgeous -- of course it was, it was Bolland -- and Mike Barr's a solid craftsman, but I don't remember much about the story.

And I don't see anything wrong with taking liberties with myths and legends -- that's par for the course. The only reason I mentioned that the Mordred of myth is the son of Morgause, not Morgan, was because Laurel was wondering why I left out the piece of lore that he was Morgan's son.

It ain't lore. Doesn't mean Boorman shouldn't have changed it to make the movie he wanted to make -- it just doesn't make it canonical in any way that I was bound to repeat.

[Plus, I never saw all of EXCALIBUR. I saw the beginning of it, and I don't remember why I needed to leave, but I never did see the rest of it.]

kdb