The Heroes Return Era of the Avengers

[Kurt Busiek]

Yes, Jack Kirby was also the same writer who made Cap's ancestor a figment of his dreams, even though Steve also mentioned having a diary left by his ancestor in the next panel.

I don't get it. Kirby didn't say Steve's ancestor was a figment of his dreams, he says Steve dreamed about him. People dream about real people often. If I wake up one morning and tell my wife I dreamed about her father, I'm not saying her father's a figment of my dreams, merely that I had a dream about someone I met often and liked.

The character Roger was telling a story about is, if I recall correctly, partly the guy referred to in this story, and partly another Kirby creation -- from a pinup in CAPTAIN AMERICA'S BICENTENNIAL BATTLES, that imagines what Cap might have looked like had he been created in 1776.

The ancestor who fought Taurey's ancestor was presented as an actual relative of Steve's. The costumed guy in the pinup wasn't said to have been an ancestor of Steve's -- he was just Kirby having fun and filling space, as with the other pinups, showing a Wild West Captain America and an "Astro-Hero" Cap.

I think I was the guy who suggested to Roger that he tell a story about the 1776 Cap somehow, merging the ancestor from the Madbomb story with the pinup from Bicentennial Battles.

And yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Cap would have a direct ancestor in America during the Revolution and that he'd be the son of fairly recent Irish immigrants. But there's almost always a way to work around it.

For one, maybe Colonial Steve came to the Colonies to make money so he could return to Ireland and marry the girl he loved -- he'd have lived and died well before the Potato Famine, which started about 70 years after the Revolution did.

Or maybe Colonial Steve came to the Colonies to make money so he could send it back to Ireland to bring his wife and son Li'l Steve over, but something went wrong and he died before that could happen. His diary was sent back and became a keepsake.

Or maybe, when Steve called Colonial Steve an ancestor, he didn't mean he's a direct descendant of the guy. Maybe Colonial Steve is Our Steve's great-great-great-whatever-uncle, and the Rogers Steve is descended from is Colonial Steve's brother.

Maybe Colonial Steve's son was born in the US, but grew up to become a sailor, and his ship was taken by pirates and he was taken prisoner and bla bla bla, and he eventually wound up in Ireland, and was going to head back to Nantucket but he met a girl...

Or he was kidnaped by Stone Men from Saturn, and wound up back in Ireland. Comics can handle a lot.

But based on what we know from the comic excerpted above, Steve had an ancestor in Revolutionary Days and his diary survived for 160 years or so. And Modern Steve had a dream about the guy. That's not any sort of contradiction.

kdb

[comictimes]

I haven't read it since it came out. I know the art was gorgeous -- of course it was, it was Bolland -- and Mike Barr's a solid craftsman, but I don't remember much about the story.

Same here. I remember about a year ago, multiple sets of the whole series where unearthed in FB. These were mint, unread copies Bolland (or the editor, I don't recall who) had kept all these years. They put them out there for quite a good price, but other than the art, I didn't see any good reason to go for it. I have almost completely forgotten the story, which doesn't speak very well on its behalf. Anyway, Bolland always looked better on cover art.

[Mister Mets]

The Thunderbolts #23-25
Before the Thunderbolts can face the new Master of Evil, one of their members is sent to prison, a former enemy tries to join, and former Captain America USA Agent teams up with the Jury (Bagley co-creations who completely make sense as back-up to a government- sponsored B-list superhero) to stop them. That’s Issue One. Strange weather events affect the world, but when the Thunderbolts try to save civilians, the new Citizen V attacks them. The new Masters of Evil are bigger than expected (25 villains is a decent gimmick for a 25th issue) which complicates the inevitable battle royale, just as the member most likely to betray everyone else is given the opportunity to do so.

The series seems thoughtful. A big part of the conflict is the members figuring out how to be more effective at what they do, with different views on how they’re seen by others. A spotlight on Moonstone fits what we know about the character, and feels like an organic part of the story, even if it’s a set-up to the moment when she has to choose what side she’s on. And right now this is a series where the readers won’t be sure what decision she’ll make, whether she’ll be back on the team, or the new big bad for Year Three.
The battle royale is fun, first when the Thunderbolts sneak around an enemy base taking out the Masters of Evil one at a time, and then when they’re still outnumbered in the showdown, but have the upper hand because they know how to work as a team. This plays to Bagley’s strengths at crowd scenes, and epic battles. There may be 25 bad guys but they have personality.

Charcoal works as a new member, because of how the rest of the team doesn’t really trust him and because of his relative naivete. He could easily have ended up joining a traditional super-team, but these guys may end up corrupting him. There is still a sense in this series that I don’t know how everything is going to turn out.
A-

[Zauriel]

I don't get it. Kirby didn't say Steve's ancestor was a figment of his dreams, he says Steve dreamed about him. People dream about real people often. If I wake up one morning and tell my wife I dreamed about her father, I'm not saying her father's a figment of my dreams, merely that I had a dream about someone I met often and liked.

The character Roger was telling a story about is, if I recall correctly, partly the guy referred to in this story, and partly another Kirby creation -- from a pinup in CAPTAIN AMERICA'S BICENTENNIAL BATTLES, that imagines what Cap might have looked like had he been created in 1776.

The ancestor who fought Taurey's ancestor was presented as an actual relative of Steve's. The costumed guy in the pinup wasn't said to have been an ancestor of Steve's -- he was just Kirby having fun and filling space, as with the other pinups, showing a Wild West Captain America and an "Astro-Hero" Cap.

I think I was the guy who suggested to Roger that he tell a story about the 1776 Cap somehow, merging the ancestor from the Madbomb story with the pinup from Bicentennial Battles.

And yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Cap would have a direct ancestor in America during the Revolution and that he'd be the son of fairly recent Irish immigrants. But there's almost always a way to work around it.

For one, maybe Colonial Steve came to the Colonies to make money so he could return to Ireland and marry the girl he loved -- he'd have lived and died well before the Potato Famine, which started about 70 years after the Revolution did.

Or maybe Colonial Steve came to the Colonies to make money so he could send it back to Ireland to bring his wife and son Li'l Steve over, but something went wrong and he died before that could happen. His diary was sent back and became a keepsake.

Or maybe, when Steve called Colonial Steve an ancestor, he didn't mean he's a direct descendant of the guy. Maybe Colonial Steve is Our Steve's great-great-great-whatever-uncle, and the Rogers Steve is descended from is Colonial Steve's brother.

Maybe Colonial Steve's son was born in the US, but grew up to become a sailor, and his ship was taken by pirates and he was taken prisoner and bla bla bla, and he eventually wound up in Ireland, and was going to head back to Nantucket but he met a girl...

Or he was kidnaped by Stone Men from Saturn, and wound up back in Ireland. Comics can handle a lot.

But based on what we know from the comic excerpted above, Steve had an ancestor in Revolutionary Days and his diary survived for 160 years or so. And Modern Steve had a dream about the guy. That's not any sort of contradiction.

kdb

Yes, you've made it sound less complicated. Thank you.

By the way, I remember you re-introduced modern era Taurey in a Thunderbolts issue along with his daughter and Karl Malus.

[Kurt Busiek]

By the way, I remember you re-introduced modern era Taurey in a Thunderbolts issue along with his daughter and Karl Malus.

Yeah, I think we spent several issues on them. I like them as characters.

kdb

[Mister Mets]

The Avengers #13-15
This seems to be three single-issue stories that are largely connected by an ongoing conspiracy, and Scarlet Witch taking new responsibility as Chairman of the Avengers. Justice and Firestar hang out with their former partners in the New Warriors, and realize how the team’s been affected by their departure. The Beast reunites with Wonder Man- his best friend back from the dead- and their plans for an evening out with Scarlet Witch and the Vision lead to a supervillain. And a search for one villain leads to an encounter with another bad guy, Triathlon and the Triune Supervillain.

These issues are dense, plot-heavy and really good. It’s a similar approach to what’s going on in the Thunderbolts at the same time. The character moments are fun. Beast’s joy at being back at Avengers Mansion is one of the highlights of the run for me, and I like Vision and Wonder Man’s realization that they’ve got similar taste in music.
Lord Templar, Pagan and the Triune Understanding aren’t exactly on the Ultron or even the Wrecking Crew (both of whom make cameos here to set up their next appearances), but they work for this type of story. The challenge isn’t whether the Avengers can defeat the bad guys, but whether members of a cult will damage their reputations.

George Perez makes stories on an epic scale seem effortless. It starts as a team book, and then you add the villains, multiple guest-starrs along with settings in Congress and religious rallies.
A

[Mister Mets]

Captain America #15-17
Captain America gets his shield back, but unfortunately it’s been shattered. The Red Skull has complete power, an event so momentous the Watcher warns Captain America that all life on Earth is at stake. Cap sees nightmare visions of the world where the Red Skull is victorious. And the moment of victory gets closer and closer.

One thing that bugged me in the story is that a major conflict is not much of one. Captain America struggles with whether he should kill the Red Skull to save the world, and the choice is so obvious that it’s hard to take any of his hesitation seriously. But there is a twist to it as someone else is manipulating things. I’m not completely sold on it, but there is more to it, and I do appreciate that.
There are some moments that just seem dumb. Iron Man interrupts Cap in a fight with Mr Hyde to tell him distressing news- that seems like something that could have waited a few minutes.

There is an impressive sequence inked by Joe Kubert, where the Red Skull uses his power to torment ordinary people. It just works with the immediate associations to all his stories set in World War 2, creating a sense of heightened stakes.
There’s a twist with the first issue that sets up a new villain, although he seems different than what I’m used to. There have been better stories before with the Red Skull gaining unlimited power, and there are better stories later. With these issues, you get to see it depicted by Andy Kubert, who is obviously quite effective at it, but it’s not saying anything new. There may be some behind the scenes stuff, since Waid originally had a story in mind with Kang, but that would have contradicted Avengers Forever, so it needed to be retconned, even with Kang appearing in the first issue cliffhanger.
B-

[SturdyMike89]

I have been following this thread for a while now and what I am left with the most is how consistently amazing this period really was. I came into comics as a fan of Spider-Man and the X-Men not really paying much attention to the Avengers line. But by 1997, I was burned out and almost quit Marvel altogether except for Untold Tales of Spider-Man which was a book I really loved and was written of course by Kurt Busiek. It led me to the Thunderbolts which was out and out terrific. Then they announced that Kurt was going to relaunch the Avengers with George Perez as artist. Picked it up and loved every page. Of course, Mark Waid and Ron Garney returned to Captain America the same time. I missed out the first time because I only got my comics off the racks of various businesses that were around me with no access to comic shops. It was available now though. Loved that one too. Best use of Lady Deathstrike ever IMHO. These books were so popular they got spinoffs like Sentinel of Liberty for Captain America and Avengers Forever. Add the best runs Iron Man or Thor had in years and it was a great time to be a fan of these characters.

[Mister Mets]

I’ve had an unofficial rule of trying to go in publication order based on the ending of a story, but I’m skipping ahead with one title to get to the end of a longer Captain America storyline. I kinda read this weeks ago, and want to comment on it already.



Captain America #18
After the events of his battle with the Red Skull, Captain America is stuck in the 31st Century fighting against the despot Korvac, and encouraging a rebellion each time. It sets a pattern of Korvac wiping people’s minds, and Captain America provoking a new rebellion.
This is an unusual interlude. Tonally, it’s very different from the earlier Red Skull story, but it picks up immediately after (at least from Cap’s POV) and it does obviously lead to the next issue. Lee Weeks has a different style than Andy Kubert, and the future setting in a sci-fi dystopia is quite different than the usual in a series that’s set in the modern day, and deals heavily with the legacy of World War 2. The package does work.

This story really focuses on Cap as a larger than life figure, standing up against forces that heavily outclass him. And in the context of the Red Skull cosmic cube story, this issue works to show a worse-case scenario for Captain America, something that is so terrible that it’s better to risk the possibility of Red Skull with ultimate power. It is able to show Steve’s impact, even if it can be over the top. It seems similar to stories done with Superman or Doctor Who.
I do feel this story would have been a better fit with Kang, which was Waid’s original plan. A revolution against an A-list supervillain just comes across differently than a revolution against a generic tech-villain.
B+



Captain America #19
Thanks to time travel shenanigans, Captain America has a do-over to fight both the Red Skull (who still has the cosmic cube) and Korvac (who seems very different from what I remember in the excellent Korvac saga.) The Red Skull turns Sharon Carter against Cap, and makes sure that the only way Cap can save himself is to hurt her. It’s a decent final trap, appropriately sadistic for the Red Skull.
It’s fine. But this apocalyptic stuff is just coming up with diminishing returns. If multiple titles have plausible end of the world scenarios, nothing matters. I like Kubert's art,
B

B+ grade for Captain America #14 (the original version)- 19

[comictimes]

Wow, I don't remember what these issues were about. At all.

[Mister Mets]

The Thunderbolts #26
Busiek/ Bagley provide bookends, but most of the issue is by Joe Casey and Leonardo Manco, showing Abner’s experiences in prison. It is visually different from what we’re used to in the series, and in most of the Heroes Return-era Avengers line comics (with the exception of the Avengers Annual by Marco, of course) but it fits a gritty (even if it only goes so far as the Comics Code of Authority would allow) prison story.
It’s a fill-in, but it’s not filler. Beetle’s (I’m calling him that rather than Mach-5, because that’s what he’s better known as; He’s also in jail because of what he did as the Beetle) experiences here push him to the limit, and connect to the larger story, setting up the next step. Manco’s gritty industrial style is a good fit for a prison story, focusing on supervillains and armed guards, although he has a particularly scrawny take on the Rhino.
B+



Fantastic Four #15/ Iron Man #14
The Fantastic Four are on the moon with lots of astronauts, Ronan the Accuser has somehow corrupted the Invisible Woman (and she’s mutating into something different) and Tony Stark is called in to help. A slight problem is that his armor malfunctions, and he accidentally attacks the Fantastic Four without the ability to communicate with them.

I’ll be honest. I haven’t really enjoyed Claremont’s later work, and the F4 scenes show why. It’s so wordy and blatant. I get that a life and death team-up in space isn’t really the environment for subtle character work, but it does mean that I don’t really care about the A-plot. Honestly, the most interesting parts of the Iron Man comic are subplots with Happy Hogan and Jim Rhodes. Both Chen and Larocca draw superheroes and space settings well enough. There is also something a bit off about the coloring on Sean Chen’s work; kinda looks like colored pencil.
C+

[kcekada]

Oddly, the more successful Claremont got -- the more his writing diminished. I think he was a victim of his own success.

[Zauriel]

I enjoyed reading Erik Larsen's The Defenders comic book from that era.

[Nomads1]

I enjoyed reading Erik Larsen's The Defenders comic book from that era.

Larsen and Busiek. LOVED it. I can't believe Marvel never collected that series (including The Order mini-series that ended up concluding it).

Peace

[Zauriel]

Larsen and Busiek. LOVED it. I can't believe Marvel never collected that series (including The Order mini-series that ended up concluding it).

Peace

Eh, what? That series is not reprinted yet?