The Heroes Return Era of the Avengers

[K7P5V]

Wow! Didn't realize Garney isn't among the popular creators around here.

For what it's worth, I'll always LOVE his artwork!

[ARkadelphia]

I know, right?! That ending is The Stuff of Legend (IMHO):

I’m not one to over-romanticize the past as there’s a lot I love about the current age we’re in. HOWEVER, I just have to say that it’s a shame that this surprise probably couldn’t be pulled off in this day and age. Too much internet. Too much previews. Too much spoilers. Etc.

[ARkadelphia]

It's a big moment.

Incredible Hulk #449
The first appearance of the Thunderbolts by Peter David and Mike Deodato.had to be an odd comic when it was published. Before Thunderbolts #1 came out, this may come across as a bland intro to a new superteam. The biggest twist in the story is that when they order the Hulk to surrender, he complies, which puts them in an awkward position unaware of his trap. There are clues about past histories between him and someone’s secret identity. But it had to be fun to check this out after the twist, when it turns out that the bland superhero aspect is all part of a cover.
B+



Tales of the Marvel Universe Thunderbolts story
It’s a prelude to Thunderbolts as ordinary people lament the loss of the superheroes. A cabbie has an anecdote about the Invisible Woman, which I think came from a Lee/ Kirby issue, and I appreciate that everyone around him has heard it so often they’re likely tired of it.Like with the Hulk story, the Thunderbolts seem bland, like generic superheroes from before Lee, Kirby and Ditko revolutionized the genre. And then Thunderbolts #1 comes out, and you realize the deception, and this just reads different.
B+

Thunderbolts #1
This is the moment Kurt Busiek became an A-list writer. He was known for one of the best Marvel comics ever with Marvels, and Astro City, which was an indie. His only ongoing was Untold Tales of Spider-Man, which was great but didn’t exactly sell well. So he’s put with veteran artist Mark Bagley on a new superhero title. If it didn’t work, he’d be the equivalent of the writers on obscure team books which flopped frequently in the aftermath of the spectator boom (Force Works, Ultrafroce, etc.).
Obviously it worked, which is likely the main reason he was offered the Avengers and Iron Man when Marvel reversed the Heroes Reborn (according to an interview, he asked for Iron Man and was offered Avengers because George Perez wanted to work with him, which had to be quite flattering.)
https://www.popmatters.com/interview...496004289.html
The issue is great, a set-up to one of the best twists in Marvel history. A humble new superteam shows up in the aftermath of Heroes Reborn, with the Avengers and Fantastic Four believed dead. They get into a showdown with the Rat Pack, a group of Looters for Hire, who aren’t exactly A-listers (their only other appearances are Thunderbolts #4 and a novel) but that serves to set-up a showdown with bigger fish with the Wrecking Crew. We get some hints of the personalities of the Thunderbolts, and decent fight scenes. The main thing is that the public of Manhattan really needs these bright new superheroes.
And then we get the real secret. And it all clicks into place. Hot damn!
One scene that’s just brilliant is MACH-1’s reaction to applause, which serves to set up a major conflict for the antiheroes, as they’re tempted by adoration as much as they ever were with crimel.
A+

Wow! I remember the team launching with that Hulk issue, but I never actually read it. I love the foreshadowing. Had I read it, I’m sure I wouldn’t have cracked the twist anyway.

[Riv86672]

Wow! Didn't realize Garney isn't among the popular creators around here.

For what it's worth, I'll always LOVE his artwork!

^^^For some reason I remember his art on Cap looking a lot better Pre-Heroes Return (issues 444-454) than Post. It seemed crisper and more dynamic.

Maybe it was the inking, but that second run just seemed muted and stiffer. I mean it’s been a long time since I picked those books up, but that’s what I’m recalling right now.

[Mister Mets]

Thunderbolts #2
Busiek’s responsible for some of my favorite comic books ever (Marvels, The Amazing Fantasy mini-series, Astro City: Confession, Nearness of You) but a good chunk of his work, especially in the context of larger runs, is competently told superhero stories, and this issue is an example.
The Thinker has a plan involving the Baxter Building, and the Masters of Evil, playing superheroes, go and try to stop him and the Awesome Android. It’s not that memorable, but it moves the story along, and there are clever moments. I like what the Thinker was hoping to accomplish, and a twist with him, as well as how quickly we get to the real heart of the story, with the Masters of Evil tempted to do good.
B+



Spider-Man Team Up #7
This works in the context of what Spider-Man’s going through between the clone saga and the Volume 2 relaunch (a period I'm covering in a thread in the spider-boards), and the continued arc of the Thunderbolts. Spider-Man is once again accused of a crime, and the Thunderbolts are sent to take him down, a welcome opportunity that means the villains pretending to be superheroes might just be able to murder an A-lister. I hadn’t realized before that the Thunderbolts likely had a big influence on Dan Slott’s Superior Spider-Man, which is one of my favorite comic book stories in the last twelve years.
As far as Spidey’s concerned, this is a standard team-up with new superheroes, even if he doesn’t realize the likelihood he’ll be betrayed. With the Thunderbolts, this gives some focus on MACH-1, since he used to fight Spider-Man before. And he does have a legitimately interesting character arc, eager for a chance to destroy someone he keeps sending him to jail, until something happens to change everything. Sal Buscema is solid on art.
B+

[gurkle]

My favorite bit in the Spider-Man Team-Up issue is how Mary Jane is completely unfazed at the Daily Bugle accusing Spider-Man of murder and tells Peter that while she's sorry for the victim's family, they both know he'll clear his name, capture the real killer and sell some photos to Jameson, just like always. And then Peter agrees but says, "blast it, I shouldn't have to clear my name all the time..." Which is a nice bit of leaning on the fourth wall and making distinction between plot stuff the reader doesn't care about and the things that actually upset Peter, but also quietly reminding us of one of the themes of the series, that what heroes and villains really care about is getting respect, and especially Mach-1, who is established as the Thunderbolt whose whole motivation is wanting to be respected.

[K7P5V]

^^^For some reason I remember his art on Cap looking a lot better Pre-Heroes Return (issues 444-454) than Post. It seemed crisper and more dynamic.

Maybe it was the inking, but that second run just seemed muted and stiffer. I mean it’s been a long time since I picked those books up, but that’s what I’m recalling right now.

Yeah! I noticed the difference, too. After being taken off Captain America, he did a brief run on Silver Surfer with JMD & the change is quite evident.
Then gave it his best shot to reverse gear, once Cap returns. Still thought his artwork was nice, though...

[Mister Mets]

Thunderbolts #3
One interesting decision early in the series is that there are single-issue stories that could easily be expanded into multi-parters, and probably would be if someone else was writing. In this one, the Thunderbolts tackle a new iteration of the Masters of Evil, which rubs Citizen V the wrong way because he was so much more effective as a supervillain. The adventure is complicated by surviving Avenger Black Widow’s efforts to go after the team’s former enemies. And a plotline of a teenager gaining super-powers is set up for the next issue. They’re not wasting time.
B+



Thunderbolts #4
Jolt is an interesting addition to the team: a fangirl who just got super-powers, and doesn’t know what’s really going on. The story is pretty strong, as she learns that a major Captain America foe (He’s got Six Energy in Marvel Snap) has done terrible things to some of her friends, with legitimately horrific consequences. And as the public learns about this, it puts pressure on the Thunderbolts to consider for the team.
A



Thunderbolts Annual #1
Marvel’s struggling with what to do with annuals, and this is a really good use of extra pages and A-list guest-starr artists (George Perez, Gene Colan, Darick Robertson and others add some sequences.) The basic story is really effective for this moment, as Citizen V provides the origin of the Thunderbolts, to new member Jolt. We see the actual origin of the team, which is bit different from what Jolt is told. The version Jolt is told is a bit bland, kinda like the superhero team readers may have been expecting until the last page of Issue 1. It’s the contrast with the reality that makes the issue, as well as the hints of things going wrong in the future in an ongoing power play between the two smartest members of the team (whose uneasy alliance is set up pretty well in the origin.)
A

[Mister Mets]

My favorite bit in the Spider-Man Team-Up issue is how Mary Jane is completely unfazed at the Daily Bugle accusing Spider-Man of murder and tells Peter that while she's sorry for the victim's family, they both know he'll clear his name, capture the real killer and sell some photos to Jameson, just like always. And then Peter agrees but says, "blast it, I shouldn't have to clear my name all the time..." Which is a nice bit of leaning on the fourth wall and making distinction between plot stuff the reader doesn't care about and the things that actually upset Peter, but also quietly reminding us of one of the themes of the series, that what heroes and villains really care about is getting respect, and especially Mach-1, who is established as the Thunderbolt whose whole motivation is wanting to be respected.

I liked that, too.

Wow! Didn't realize Garney isn't among the popular creators around here.

For what it's worth, I'll always LOVE his artwork!

If we're focusing on art, typical storytelling is more important than cool splashes/ spreads.

[Mister Mets]

Thunderbolts #-1
This was a one-off during flashback month, when every title had a-1 issue set before the events of the first issue. Busiek and guest Steve Epting (whose style is different here than in his run with Captain America with Ed Brubaker a few years later; it’s kind of like a competent bronze age military comic) show what the Thunderbolts were up to years earlier, before the emergence of the Marvel superheroes. It really plays to Busiek’s strengths, with vignettes about the members, that work fine as a standalone comic book, but also serve to deepen the understanding of the characters.
The original Baron Zemo bonds with his son (the future Citizen V) and we get a sense that these are terrible people, but more complex than we might assume, able to instill true loyalty and tempted by the quiet life. Moonstone does something nasty as a psychiatrist, the future Songbird makes an important decision, the Beetle finds his ambitions squashed and the Fixer makes some new friends, deciding to use his brains as an advisor to criminals rather than a superhero.
A



Thunderbolts #5
It’s more of an Atlas spotlight, as Baron Von Strucker sics the Growing Man against the Thunderbolts, just when the team is celebrating some downtime. But there are machinations, with Moonstone manipulating others to challenge Citizen V for leadership, and new member Jolt and city liaison Dallas (getting into a romance with Atlas) unaware that there’s anything more going on. Citizen V tries to use an emergency to get his hands on more power. This works as a standalone, and is a chapter of a larger story, told just as well as you would expect from a typical issue by Busiek and Bagley.
B+

[Nomads1]

^^^For some reason I remember his art on Cap looking a lot better Pre-Heroes Return (issues 444-454) than Post. It seemed crisper and more dynamic.

Maybe it was the inking, but that second run just seemed muted and stiffer. I mean it’s been a long time since I picked those books up, but that’s what I’m recalling right now.

That was a real stupid move by Marvel. Waid and Garney were showing that once in a lifetime chemestry that leads to a legendary run, and Marvel saw fit to give them the boot to give the book to ROB LIEFIELD! I'm sure their enthusiasam wasn't quite the same when they were re-invited back to the book, and it showed. Waid's second run was good, but hardly as great as his first one was shaping to be. And, recently I've also been re-reading his relatively recent run with Samnee, and, while it's obviously of high quality, it really failed to excite me as his previous ones did.

Yeah! I noticed the difference, too. After being taken off Captain America, he did a brief run on Silver Surfer with JMD & the change is quite evident.
Then gave it his best shot to reverse gear, once Cap returns. Still thought his artwork was nice, though...

Garney is still, and probably will always be, one of my favorites, but he really was on fire during that first run. Still, that first Sentinel of Liberty arc, featuring the Invaders, is one of my all-time favorites.

Peace

[Anthony W]

I liked a lot of Busiek's stuff but a lot of it was very "wordy".

I didn't love this era but I really appreciated it.

Busiek isn't wordy so much as he doesn't write in quipalogue™ . Quipalogue is quips passing as dialogue. Isn't it funny how Joss Whedon has been banished but his writing style hasn't and it seems to be really popular especially among woman comic writers?

But back to Busiek...

His books still managed to balance action and characterization . Bendis? Now that was a very wordy Avengers writer LOL. those comics were so padded an NFL player could wear them.R

[Mister Mets]

Thunderbolts #6-8
This was the biggest Thunderbolts story so far, and it pits the team against robots with element based powers, who don’t immediately seem to be a menace worthy of this level of attention. Granted, the conflicts between the Thunderbolts are compelling, with Citizen V trying to squash romances, and considering the murder of the newest member, a problem that Kitty Pryde didn’t exactly have with the X-Men.
Jeff Johnson provides fill-in art with the middle issue, while Roger Stern joins as co-writer. Johnson’s fine, and I don’t notice any major differences in quality with the writing.
Citizen V makes a play for more power from the city, which is an excuse for Moonstone to push the team against him. The best moment of the Elements of Doom is the reminder that some elements are invisible, but they are a threat that can call for the attention of a lot of superheroes, the type that isn’t an event but can be texture in an Astro City type story. One member of the Thunderbolts gets his neck broken, and that’s not the end of his story. Songbird has to fight alone, and it’s an excellent dynamic of someone pretending to be a hero forced to live up to that version of herself.


In my heart of hearts, I prefer rereading the cinematic storytelling that would become popular a few years late to this style of comics, but this is a decent example of the comics that were popular before that.
B+

[Mister Mets]

Busiek isn't wordy so much as he doesn't write in quipalogue™ . Quipalogue is quips passing as dialogue. Isn't it funny how Joss Whedon has been banished but his writing style hasn't and it seems to be really popular especially among woman comic writers?

But back to Busiek...

His books still managed to balance action and characterization . Bendis? Now that was a very wordy Avengers writer LOL. those comics were so padded an NFL player could wear them.R

Bendis is wordy, but more in a cinematic/ widescreen style.

Busiek is also typically denser. There's a sense of more bang for your buck, but for me, Bendis is easier to reread.

[Kaijudo]

The very concept of rereading Bendis sends shivers down my spine. Have a pretty good idea what Hell is going to look like for me now.

In all seriousness, this is definitely the era where I thought Avengers was really firing on all cylinders. It might not be my favorite (that's the Stern era of the 80s) but I felt like this maximized what you could do with the concept. I think the biggest reason for that is that Busiek, like Mark Waid and (at least for DC) James Robinson, knows and loves the history of these characters and the franchise and will incorporate deep cuts from the past without making it feel like fanservice, while still introducing new elements to the ongoing mythology. Sure, Justice and Firestar (or even Silverclaw and Triathlon) are never going to be thought of as classic Avengers, but it's not like their inclusion damaged the brand at all. I personally feel like that's the polar opposite of what Bendis did to the book.

(Side note: I'm a little sad we never got a James Robinson Avengers book. I remember reading an interview with him stating that he'd want to go with a lot of B-listers and deep cuts, citing Quicksilver and the Jim Hammond Human Torch as examples. That's a kind of lineup I'd love to see in the book but likely never will in these synergized, "pray we get some movie fans as readers" times).