Why does Batman keep evolving his IP in different ways compared to Superman?

[Jim Kelly]

Y'know, I had a lot of good reasons for what I posted previously, but it would be a very long post if I explained all that. And I hate writing long posts. So spare my fingers and just imagine that I wrote it. 'Nuff said.

[Hoodj]

I also noticed batman has no trouble being a platform for other characters in the dcu to team up with compared to superman.

[marhawkman]

I also noticed batman has no trouble being a platform for other characters in the dcu to team up with compared to superman.

Hmm lowest common denominator. It's easier for a super alien to help out a mere human than vice-versa.

[Hoodj]

Hmm lowest common denominator. It's easier for a super alien to help out a mere human than vice-versa.

elaborate more?

[Leancarp900]

In comics, Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder and Tom King wrote the main Batman in-succession, each with a very strong vision on the character, while the Superman books were kinda a mess overall. Tim Burton, Nolan and Matt Reeves on the movie side. BTAS is one of the most important and influencial animated series of all time while STAS...just exists and that's kinda about it.

It might just have been luck, or that Batman is overall more appealing to certain authors.

The secret about Batman (and the superhero genre in general, but particularly Batman) is that you can basically tell any story with him. The Long Halloween is "The Godfather, but Batman is there". You can make him fight aliens, organized crime, colourful supervillains and not-so-colourful ones. You can tell a lighthearted and campy story or a dark and gritty one.

[Vakanai]

I think there kind of has been evolution in Superman in recent years. The S&L show is basically "what if he was a dad?". Smallville was basically him as a teenager. The new cartoon is him starting out his early years and discovering his powers during his career. The only real evolution I've seen in Batman over the years is more a race to see who can make him more "realistic" than the person before them. First with the Nolan movies (to be fair, I think it started with Year One) and now we've got a new movie where the "Batmobile" is basically just a souped up Dodge Charger. At some point, you're going to "realistic" yourself into a corner where you can't use half his rogues gallery. I can't see someone like Clayface or Mr. Freeze showing up in the Pattinson movies. Or even someone like Poison Ivy. Even that deleted scene with the Joker seemed almost out of place. And the more they do this, the more ridiculous the entire concept seems. Sooner or later, a guy who dresses up like a bat is going to fall apart under the weight of it's own ridiculousness. Superman doesn't have that problem. S&L did an entire season about Bizzarro and it barely slowed the show down. But, to be fair, it did feel a little out of place.

If anything, I would argue Superman has MORE freedom to explore than Batman does. Especially when Batman's only real choice is to become more grim and gritty than the one before.

That's live action, which is far from the full picture. Batman's had a few anime, he's teamed up with the Ninja Turtles, all his most outrageous unrealistic foes were in his critically acclaimed videogames, he's fighting zombie ninjas in the Court of Owls and their Talons. And again there's the comics, one of the upcoming ones having him fight some Lovecraftian Cthuhlu version of himself from some evil mirror dimension version of Gotham, and another one having him going out into outer space for an adventure. Hell he still is the character who'll most often team up with Scooby Doo. Like there's a whole series where he does just that.

Only the live action movies are going hyper realistic - so what?

[marhawkman]

elaborate more?

It's easier to write Superman fighting Bat villains than vice versa since you don't really NEED Bane to be a "legit threat" to Supes. You can still tell a story about Bane fighting Superman. But with batman you get into Bat-god territory fast if he's fighting somone like zod

[guanlishabi]

Apparently the amount of adaptations equals flexibility,
Sure,
No point arguing.

[Vakanai]

Okay, thinking about it, I think it's a few things, most of which has been said here - fans not liking when he's pushed too far from "consensus", Donner, can't support as many books too experiment, etc. But a lot of it I think is lack of popularity among the powers that be, which stop two big things from happening - cartoons and Elseworlds.

Think about it, BTAS, The Batman, B:TBatB, Beware the Batman - all different from each other, all doing something unique from the ones that came before. What series did Superman get okayed throughout that same time span? STAS, basically BTAS but with Superman and frankly without the care or passion, and LoSH where was just the lead of an ensemble team. Yeah. Only now nearly 30 years after STAS are we getting a solo cartoon, and look at it - love it like I do or hate it MAWS is completely different from we've seen before, just like all the Batman cartoons were different. Animated series are huge for helping adapt characters to the times, the generation, and just making them more flexible. Imagine where we'd be if Superman had as many modern cartoons as Batman? Add two more Superman series to the past couple decades with all the variations they bring and we might have a more flexible image of old Clark. MAWS is a step in the right direction, but man is it soooo late! It shouldn't be the first Supes cartoon in a generation, it should be like the third or something.

And not just cartoon series either, movies. Sure, the mainline DTVs have Superman movies, even if less than Batman, and as much as I don't like the movies in the Tomorrow-verse since MoT that one was a darn good take on Clark/Supes, but wow there's not that many and they fly through the radar - plus, the mainline films are kinda set towards a specific fan. They don't do much to expand the brand. It's the unexpected DTVs that fall outside that line that shakes things up. Batman Ninja, love it or hate it, a crazy big anime movie that goes all out and throws everything the medium has at it is a hell of a big pitch that shows Batman as a flexible character - Superman needs some kind of crazy out there anime. Batman's teamed up with Scooby Doo, imagine if Superman was in some cartoony Scooby Doo crossover. Batman's teamed up with the Ninja Turtles, who has Superman teamed up with in a DTV? Nobody, he doesn't get these kind of outside the standard line DTVs. Batman Unlimited, three PG Batman movies teaming up with Flash, Cyborg, Green Arrow, and members of the Batfam tackling on big DC villains, all to sell some toyline (which wasn't even a success, but the films were pretty good). Superman needs a couple PG films teaming up with popular heroes getting a push (remember during Batman Unlimited both Flash and GA had successful CW films, and though it went nowhere WB was set to really push Cyborg).

We need cartoon series and more varied and out there DTV films.


Outside of animation the next thing I mentioned was Elseworlds. Yeah, sure, Superman like Batman had a bunch of them back in the 90s. But that's where they've stayed, in the 90s. Look at Batman, Azzarello´s Joker helped shape the vision for Heath Ledger's take, The White Knight was successful enough to kick off the Black Label imprint, the TMNT crossover Elseworlds was big enough to get that DTV movie made, and those are just the successes - there's so many of them, most unimportant, but they all take chances. What's Superman got? That I can name from the past couple decades, just two. But look at those two - All Star and Smashes the Klan, two of the very best Superman books. Out of continuity books are hugely important, because even if they don't affect the never ending narrative so many fans take special stock in, they affect what the character can be, what they can do, the image others can form of them - in other words, it makes them flexible.

Animation and out of continuity tales are what expand a character in the pop zeitgeist, and that channels back into the main books and even Hollywood films. I don't know why Superman wasn't as popular 20 to 30 years ago when this all started, when they started not giving him cartoons and not giving him more Elseworlds. I assume it was just a few people in the wrong positions of power at the time - Bruce Timm was a Batman fanboy, so STAS wasn't a high priority. And he had a big say in the early mainline DTV stuff, so Supes was shunted a bit. But it can't be all on him. But I know why he's not as popular now - because he wasn't given a cartoon 20 years ago, because he doesn't have his own Superman Ninja or Unlimited or meets Scooby Doo, because and I'm just realizing it now, he doesn't have an Arkham Asylum, his most famous videogame makes him the bad guy! So elseworlds, animation, and videogames. Those are the 3 pillars of pop culture you need if you want to get popular. Live action films too but lets be honest, if you ain't got a handle on the other 3 you ain't getting people invested in making an awesome live action film.

MAWS is a good start. MoT was alright. But we need a lock on another cartoon for when MAWS finally comes to an end. We need more DTVs covering all ages, PG and PG13. We need at least one or two elseworld stories a year. We definitely need a videogame where Supes is the main good guy. Do that, and this firm unshakeable image of Superman will start to crack, and we'll see him develop more flexibility, or rather will see writers develop some flexibility when writing him.

[Vakanai]

I don't think Batman evolved at all since the 80s.
Bro is stuck in the Year One and Dark Knight Returns syndrome for 40 years,
and no one cared at all.


Superman just doesn't work that well with the rest of DC,
since Superman office merged with DC office in the 70s,
Superman can't change his status quo without huge ramification for the rest of the DCU.


So Superman works best alone and not in the DCU,
as shown in All Star Superman, Superman and Lois, etc.

IP, so not just his regular comic books. Cartoons from BTAS to The Batman to Brave and the Bold to Beware the Batman, heck to Batwheels for preschoolers. Say what you will but wouldn't it be awesome if Superman had a show aimed at preschoolers? Even the 66 series made a come back with Adam West returning to voice (rip) a couple movies and there's a 66 comic series.
So no, it hasn't remotely been Year One and TDKR for the IP over 40 years. It's had the biggest most outsized impact in the monthly floppies sure, but the IP is bigger than that, and what other IP can house Batman 66 and Brave and the Bold alongside the grim and gritty Nolan trilogy? From something G rated like Batwheels to R rated like a couple of the DTVs? Tell me that's not a flexible IP, really. I want Superman to get like that (not R rated, but you get the idea). I want a Superman cartoon for preschoolers, I want a PG 13 live action Hollywood blockbuster trilogy, I want the Scooby Doo and Ninja Turtle team ups, I want the anime movies, I want the campy and zany BatB styled series next to the more mature BTAS styled series. Superman can lend himself to just as broad a spectrum as Batman IP wise, probably more so, imagine all the stuff that can be done with the Superboy and LoSH stuff or the space adventures or Clark's investigative reporting.

I also don't agree he doesn't meld with the rest of the DCU. Imagine an epic cool Superman and GL team up, or traveling through time with Flash to stop some Thawne and Brainiac team up. Imagine him getting tapped by these cosmic beings like Dr Fate and the Spectre to save the universe from forces he can't fully comprehend. Or going to Mars with J'onn or Atlantis with Aquaman. Superman could seriously rock some outrageous team up stories if given the right chance with a writer up for it.

[Vakanai]

That's not evolving,
that's simply because Batman got more popularity since the 80s.
Is Spider-man IP evolving simply because there are movies, animated movies, games, and cartoons?
No, that's just Spider-man being popular.


And Superman simply works better alone.
Fact is, there really aren't any Superman essential reading that involves the DCU,
All Star, For All Seasons, Birthright, Superman the movie,
Also the fact that during Silver Age, Superman office was the best selling office without any crossovers.

I'm pretty sure it's what most people here have been talking about when saying evolving, and from context it feels like what the OP meant.
And it's not just there being more movies and games and cartoons but the variety. And I'd say yeah, Spider-Man has definitely evolved - look at how different Spider-Verse, MCU Spidey, Spectacular Spider-Man have all been. I don't think he's evolved more than Batman however, because even though there's variety there, it's not as much in comparison - and this is despite the fact Spider-Man is more popular than Batman!
Besides, popularity might give you all the things to evolve an IP, but it doesn't evolve it by itself, people gotta do different things with that IP. If every cartoon was like BTAS, if there was nothing like BatB, if Batman Ninja was completely off the wall, you would have a point. But you can't honestly say all these things are the same or similar.
It's not popularity. The sheer amount of content is popularity, but the variety of styles and tones represented is creatives taking chances and expanding the character.

And again, disagree - it doesn't matter that there's currently no great "must read" team up, it's that there should be, that there's potential there. Besides, what would the JL be without Superman?

But before you respond, I already have the sense you're going to go on about popularity again and Supes needing to be a DCU loner, that we're not going to see eye to eye on this. So let's agree to disagree.

[Vakanai]

See, here’s the thing,
I don’t see how being adapted into multi-media is IP evolving.
That’s some poor definition of evolving.

Here evolving means becoming more flexible, allowing for more varied takes, like being able to go into a martial arts story, or a mecha vs kaiju story, or a gritty vs the mob story, or a story fighting zombies or a story going into space. The multi-media is both part of showing that flexibility, and part of what drives that flexibility.

Batman has a definitive interpretation in Year One and Dark Knight Returns,

Also has a definitive interpretation in the Adam West 66 stuff and the Brave and the Bold stuff.

Almost all its later multi-media adaptations during the Internet age was rehashing that same interpretation.
So no, I don’t consider that evolving in any way.

Except, it isn't rehashing that same interpretation. How is Adam West Batman making a comeback or the BatB version rehashing Year One and TDKR?
Do you really think the version shown in the pre-school aimed Batwheels is gonna go on to break Joker's neck?

Unless you consider Evil Superman to be IP evolving,
because that is adapted in many different forms.

I do not - but I do consider Superman being a dad with teen sons in Superman & Lois evolving, I do consider Superman falling for Lois and having adventures with her and Jimmy as interns in My Adventures with Superman evolving, with it's much more modern styling and sensibilities geared towards the Millennial and Z generations evolving.

Let’s see, movie, animated movie, TV show, cartoon, games even,
So yeah, I guess Evil Superman is IP evolving.

Are you okay? Because it's impossible not to read your posts without a lot of exasperated and frustrated and cynical "everything is Batgod and Injustice Murderman!" vibes. Like, shit ain't that bad or hopeless, but if you think it is and all you got is the "I hate Batgod and all we get is Injustice Supes", then we really ain't got much to talk about. I don't mind a debate or a disagreement, but I'm not getting dragged into that self pity mire again.

[HsssH]

That's not evolving,
that's simply because Batman got more popularity since the 80s.
Is Spider-man IP evolving simply because there are movies, animated movies, games, and cartoons?
No, that's just Spider-man being popular.


And Superman simply works better alone.
Fact is, there really aren't any Superman essential reading that involves the DCU,
All Star, For All Seasons, Birthright, Superman the movie,
Also the fact that during Silver Age, Superman office was the best selling office without any crossovers.

I don't like it but Kingdom Come is often mentioned. On the other hand it is not like other characters have many essentials that feature wider DCU either so I guess we might as well do away with shared continuity.

[HsssH]

Thats some hot takes right there.

[manwhohaseverything]

I finally found the answer..batman is Eevee and superman is pikachu.

I dunno,
Batman essential reading often involves Dark Knight Returns,
whose biggest selling point was Batman beating Superman?
Or Hush, one of the popular Batman comics,
which also involves Batman beating Superman?
So maybe Batman beating Superman is a selling point for Batman?

That's for nerds and batfanboys.The movies and other adaptation stand on their own merit.nolan,burton,reeves none of these are same.Superman hasn't had the presence batman had in Hollywood.
Even in comics origins superman always debuts by catching a helicopter more than often.