Why does Batman keep evolving his IP in different ways compared to Superman?

[Vakanai]

Look,
All I’m saying is your definition of evolving is not valid.

Or, again, by context that seems to be the definition of the OP and most here are going for, IP branching out, doing different things and having different takes with different tones. And if that definition is invalid then this whole...you think this entire thread is invalid don't you?
Look, agree or disagree, we clearly disagree. As for the rest - yes, sadly Evil Superman is evolving, just a very shitty evolution we all want to go away. Yes, the era where Superman was getting all the multi-media was also evolving.
And it isn't just multimedia, it's the books - elseworlds, spin offs, one offs, lines doing different things than the usual. Smashes the Klan is evolving.

Just agree to disagree here. But saying it's not valid is basically ignoring the whole point of the thread really. Maybe branching out or being more flexible are better terms than evolving - who cares what we call it?

[Vakanai]

Is The Dark Knight Returns not a essential reading for Batman?
Is Batman beating Superman not a essential selling point?
You guys are trying so hard to dodge the real question.

Not really - the question isn't "how important is TDKR" or "Evil Superman, yay or nay?" or "time for Batman to beat Superman again?" or...whatever it is you're answering. It's why does Batman's IP keep evolving/changing/expanding-in-different-tones with the times? Which it has been and is, whether you believe it or not. But you seem laser focused on nothing else at all other than "I hate that Batman beats Superman in this or that" and "I hate Evil Superman is a too often used thing now" to have any other discussion that's not about that.

[TheBatman]

The Boys or Invincible aren't more popular than BTAS or the Adam West TV show were. In particular, the latter was a legit cultural phenomenon, the kind The Boys and Invincible can't be due to the decline of monoculture.

[manwhohaseverything]

Is The Dark Knight Returns not a essential reading for Batman?
Is Batman beating Superman not a essential selling point?
You guys are trying so hard to dodge the real question.

I don’t think Batman IP is more flexible than Superman in any way or form.
The Boys and Invincible are both inspired by Superman,
but the so much more flexible Batman didn’t inspire any shows?
So no, Batman is not more flexible.

And I don’t think Batman IP is evolving.

Having an essential reading doesn't mean the character isn't malleable.That,itself is false equivalence.for instance,i would say you watching some mecha before watching evangalion is essential.Doesn't mean every mecha is evangalion.

The boys and invincible aren't from dc either.Superman fans don't even consider them Superman.There is a huuuuuge swath of characters that are inspired by superman like the iron giant,alien goku,astroboy,metroman..etc.so on so forth.But,that doesn't mean these treatments being done to character will go over well.

For example,giving the "person not gun" arc of iron giant to superman with xenophobic military guy and bit of death/destruction.

i get it there are far more alternative versions of superman.That's precisely because flexiblity issues.But for batman the idea of classic is malleable.while for superman it's literally jesus.Not gonna change.because for Americans knowingly or unknowingly ngly the idea of "perfection" or "ideal" is a guy that gives sermons like jesus.They have this thing about the guy absolutely standing above humanity as authority figure of some kind. Be it Ethical or totalitarian or whatever.

[bat39]

Okay, thinking about it, I think it's a few things, most of which has been said here - fans not liking when he's pushed too far from "consensus", Donner, can't support as many books too experiment, etc. But a lot of it I think is lack of popularity among the powers that be, which stop two big things from happening - cartoons and Elseworlds.

Think about it, BTAS, The Batman, B:TBatB, Beware the Batman - all different from each other, all doing something unique from the ones that came before. What series did Superman get okayed throughout that same time span? STAS, basically BTAS but with Superman and frankly without the care or passion, and LoSH where was just the lead of an ensemble team. Yeah. Only now nearly 30 years after STAS are we getting a solo cartoon, and look at it - love it like I do or hate it MAWS is completely different from we've seen before, just like all the Batman cartoons were different. Animated series are huge for helping adapt characters to the times, the generation, and just making them more flexible. Imagine where we'd be if Superman had as many modern cartoons as Batman? Add two more Superman series to the past couple decades with all the variations they bring and we might have a more flexible image of old Clark. MAWS is a step in the right direction, but man is it soooo late! It shouldn't be the first Supes cartoon in a generation, it should be like the third or something.

And not just cartoon series either, movies. Sure, the mainline DTVs have Superman movies, even if less than Batman, and as much as I don't like the movies in the Tomorrow-verse since MoT that one was a darn good take on Clark/Supes, but wow there's not that many and they fly through the radar - plus, the mainline films are kinda set towards a specific fan. They don't do much to expand the brand. It's the unexpected DTVs that fall outside that line that shakes things up. Batman Ninja, love it or hate it, a crazy big anime movie that goes all out and throws everything the medium has at it is a hell of a big pitch that shows Batman as a flexible character - Superman needs some kind of crazy out there anime. Batman's teamed up with Scooby Doo, imagine if Superman was in some cartoony Scooby Doo crossover. Batman's teamed up with the Ninja Turtles, who has Superman teamed up with in a DTV? Nobody, he doesn't get these kind of outside the standard line DTVs. Batman Unlimited, three PG Batman movies teaming up with Flash, Cyborg, Green Arrow, and members of the Batfam tackling on big DC villains, all to sell some toyline (which wasn't even a success, but the films were pretty good). Superman needs a couple PG films teaming up with popular heroes getting a push (remember during Batman Unlimited both Flash and GA had successful CW films, and though it went nowhere WB was set to really push Cyborg).

We need cartoon series and more varied and out there DTV films.


Outside of animation the next thing I mentioned was Elseworlds. Yeah, sure, Superman like Batman had a bunch of them back in the 90s. But that's where they've stayed, in the 90s. Look at Batman, Azzarello´s Joker helped shape the vision for Heath Ledger's take, The White Knight was successful enough to kick off the Black Label imprint, the TMNT crossover Elseworlds was big enough to get that DTV movie made, and those are just the successes - there's so many of them, most unimportant, but they all take chances. What's Superman got? That I can name from the past couple decades, just two. But look at those two - All Star and Smashes the Klan, two of the very best Superman books. Out of continuity books are hugely important, because even if they don't affect the never ending narrative so many fans take special stock in, they affect what the character can be, what they can do, the image others can form of them - in other words, it makes them flexible.

Animation and out of continuity tales are what expand a character in the pop zeitgeist, and that channels back into the main books and even Hollywood films. I don't know why Superman wasn't as popular 20 to 30 years ago when this all started, when they started not giving him cartoons and not giving him more Elseworlds. I assume it was just a few people in the wrong positions of power at the time - Bruce Timm was a Batman fanboy, so STAS wasn't a high priority. And he had a big say in the early mainline DTV stuff, so Supes was shunted a bit. But it can't be all on him. But I know why he's not as popular now - because he wasn't given a cartoon 20 years ago, because he doesn't have his own Superman Ninja or Unlimited or meets Scooby Doo, because and I'm just realizing it now, he doesn't have an Arkham Asylum, his most famous videogame makes him the bad guy! So elseworlds, animation, and videogames. Those are the 3 pillars of pop culture you need if you want to get popular. Live action films too but lets be honest, if you ain't got a handle on the other 3 you ain't getting people invested in making an awesome live action film.

MAWS is a good start. MoT was alright. But we need a lock on another cartoon for when MAWS finally comes to an end. We need more DTVs covering all ages, PG and PG13. We need at least one or two elseworld stories a year. We definitely need a videogame where Supes is the main good guy. Do that, and this firm unshakeable image of Superman will start to crack, and we'll see him develop more flexibility, or rather will see writers develop some flexibility when writing him.

You're definitely onto something there with the sheer frequency of Batman-related projects. In fact, I would take it a step further and say that this frequency may well be one of the factors forcing variety into the IP.

Think about it - you can't have several consecutive Batman cartoons in a relatively short span that all have the same take on the character. Each project has to be at least a little different.

The Batman cartoon was out less than a decade after the end of BTAS (and at a time when the DCAU Batman was still ongoing in JLU). Instead of being a BTAS clone, it took a different, more actionized and anime-esq take on the character and his world, and focused on a younger, more tech-driven Bruce Wayne. Then, almost immediately after The Batman ended, we got Brave and the Bold which again did something totally different - featuring a veteran Batman who was somewhat of a blend between Adam West and the DCAU Batman, and featuring Batman teaming up with other heroes against the backdrop of a DCU that stylistically took its cues from the Silver Age, but with some modern sensibilities (and characters). After BatB, we got Beware the Batman, which went back to a darker sensibility for the character, but chose to spotlight more obscure supporting characters and villains (Anarky rather than Joker, Katana rather than Robin/Batgirl). And its only now, over three decades later, that we'll be going full circle and getting a cartoon that harks back to BTAS, with The Caped Crusader.

It's the same with the films, even when the source material and broad sensibilities are ostensibly the same. Nolan and Reeves were both inspired by Year One, but if you watch Batman Begins and The Batman one after the other you'd know that they have very distinct approaches to the character and his world. Affleck's DKR-inspired Batman is also his own animal, as is Keaton's Batman who made his return in The Flash.

Even in the comics...I suppose if DC publishes so many Batman comics a year (compared to other characters) they kinda have to ensure that its not just more of the same.

[Vakanai]

Nah, my point is OP’s point is just invalid,
Batman is branching out has nothing to do with the IP itself.
It is not because of the IP itself is more flexible,
but because Warner Bros thinks Batman sells.

The fact that Batman has many different adaptations has nothing to do with,
the IP being flexible or the IP is evolving.
So once again you guys are just missing the point.

Yeah, I just disagree 100%.

[Agent Z]

Is The Dark Knight Returns not a essential reading for Batman?
Is Batman beating Superman not a essential selling point?
You guys are trying so hard to dodge the real question.

I don’t think Batman IP is more flexible than Superman in any way or form.
The Boys and Invincible are both inspired by Superman,
but the so much more flexible Batman didn’t inspire any shows?
So no, Batman is not more flexible.

And I don’t think Batman IP is evolving.

Firstly, The Boys is not inspired by Superman. It's a satire of the superhero genre as a whole. You might as well say Ben 10 is inspired by X-Men because one of Ben's alien forms is based on Wolverine.

Secondly, how is having a bunch of pastiches made by different companies evidence that Superman is more flexible than Batman? Keep in mind that the comic version of The Boys was originally published under DC's WildStorm imprint but was moved over to Dynamite.

It's why does Batman's IP keep evolving/changing/expanding-in-different-tones with the times?

If that's what evolving means in the context of this discussion, then I don't see how anyone can claim Superman hasn't evolved. Just looking at his tv shows, Adventures of Superboy, Lois & Clark, Smallville, Superman: The Animated Series, Superman & Lois and My Adventures With Superman could not be more different. Regardless of what you feel about the live action movies, they are not the same either.

The boys and invincible aren't from dc either.Superman fans don't even consider them Superman.

I've seen a lot of articles, blog posts and comments lamenting the abundance of "Evil Superman" stories that explicitly mention Homelander and Omni-Man. Superman fans absolutely do consider these guys Superman.

[HsssH]

I think it is important to understand that when Superman fans complain about something it is usually done by comparison with Batman. So yeah, technically Superman is evolving and has various adaptations and 3-4 new books every month. But when you compare all that to what Batman is getting? Meh.

[marhawkman]

You're definitely onto something there with the sheer frequency of Batman-related projects. In fact, I would take it a step further and say that this frequency may well be one of the factors forcing variety into the IP.

Think about it - you can't have several consecutive Batman cartoons in a relatively short span that all have the same take on the character. Each project has to be at least a little different.

The Batman cartoon was out less than a decade after the end of BTAS (and at a time when the DCAU Batman was still ongoing in JLU). Instead of being a BTAS clone, it took a different, more actionized and anime-esq take on the character and his world, and focused on a younger, more tech-driven Bruce Wayne. Then, almost immediately after The Batman ended, we got Brave and the Bold which again did something totally different - featuring a veteran Batman who was somewhat of a blend between Adam West and the DCAU Batman, and featuring Batman teaming up with other heroes against the backdrop of a DCU that stylistically took its cues from the Silver Age, but with some modern sensibilities (and characters). After BatB, we got Beware the Batman, which went back to a darker sensibility for the character, but chose to spotlight more obscure supporting characters and villains (Anarky rather than Joker, Katana rather than Robin/Batgirl). And its only now, over three decades later, that we'll be going full circle and getting a cartoon that harks back to BTAS, with The Caped Crusader.

It's the same with the films, even when the source material and broad sensibilities are ostensibly the same. Nolan and Reeves were both inspired by Year One, but if you watch Batman Begins and The Batman one after the other you'd know that they have very distinct approaches to the character and his world. Affleck's DKR-inspired Batman is also his own animal, as is Keaton's Batman who made his return in The Flash.

Even in the comics...I suppose if DC publishes so many Batman comics a year (compared to other characters) they kinda have to ensure that its not just more of the same.

This is a good point. Depth and breadth of variety and change is also quite important, not just the sheer number of variations.

[manwhohaseverything]

I've seen a lot of articles, blog posts and comments lamenting the abundance of "Evil Superman" stories that explicitly mention Homelander and Omni-Man. Superman fans absolutely do consider these guys Superman.

If superman fans really consider these versions as super then we would be talking a lot about these versions in the forum itself like snyder's or injustice.They don't.Anyways the point was the creator were rejected by the comoany to do different version.So they made their own og characters based on archetype or some aspect of the character.Therefore the lack of malleability.

[JackDaw]

I am one of the few fans to be sorry when he didn’t stop as “Electric Superman”…I think there they were massive long term possibilities, would certainly have liked to see him take on a typical Kryptonian in a fight, new powers v old.

[Agent Z]

If superman fans really consider these versions as super then we would be talking a lot about these versions in the forum itself like snyder's or injustice.

This place is not the only forum where Superman is discussed.

[marhawkman]

I am one of the few fans to be sorry when he didn’t stop as “Electric Superman”…I think there they were massive long term possibilities, would certainly have liked to see him take on a typical Kryptonian in a fight, new powers v old.

I often wonder if that was part of the inspiration for Livewire. Most people just think "woman who manipulates electric". But the original appearance of Livewire had her doing things that are just generic super-strength feats. She could lift things weighing tons, and her first defeat... had Superman flying tackle her through several feet of steel reinforced concrete to knock her into a river. That's not part of the standard "electric person" skill set. She's got a long list of powers TBH, but the list has several pseudo-Kryptonian things: flight, super-strength, super-toughness, super-speed.

[manwhohaseverything]

This place is not the only forum where Superman is discussed.

Be that as a may, it's not from my knowledge discussed in depth in any superman related places.

I am one of the few fans to be sorry when he didn’t stop as “Electric Superman”…I think there they were massive long term possibilities, would certainly have liked to see him take on a typical Kryptonian in a fight, new powers v old.

I am more interested in "firey" red than electric blue.That costume is dated and it's not very eye catching though.

[Kuwagaton]

I am one of the few fans to be sorry when he didn’t stop as “Electric Superman”…I think there they were massive long term possibilities, would certainly have liked to see him take on a typical Kryptonian in a fight, new powers v old.

It's such an interesting premise that here we are in 2023 with Blue Jon and Red Lana

So, this thread being what it is, what's Batman's equivalent experiment? Where are the times they nuked his whole mythos or indefinitely changed his function?