Mark Waid's Doctor Doom Manifesto (plus extra material)

[Darkshadow]

Well, you certainly bring the receipts and it's refreshing to see the Doom apologists in this group stymied. I've got so many books that involve Doom (more than the apologists) but I simply cannot get as obsessed with him as some members have. He's a great character, but he is no anti hero worthy of the worship some people here offer.

[Darkshadow]

"Unclear", it what I'm going to go with here. Because you're correct; before Books of Doom (which came out after Waid's run was published), none of the retellings of Doom's childhood (that I can think of) showed him knowing that his mother was in Hell or even trying to rescue her at all until he got to America. But I could be remembering wrong, because God knows Doom's backstory has been retold a million times, with each writer/artist adding their own little nuances to it.

For what it's worth, the Lee/Kirby and Triumph and Torment retellings only have him trying to contact "the netherworld", but don't specify whether or not that refers to a heaven or a hell.

Annual 2 would be the best source, but I can't access mine now.

[grilledcheesing]

Well, you certainly bring the receipts and it's refreshing to see the Doom apologists in this group stymied. I've got so many books that involve Doom (more than the apologists) but I simply cannot get as obsessed with him as some members have. He's a great character, but he is no anti hero worthy of the worship some people here offer.

That's one of the benefits of going from "blind Doom worshipper" to a more mature "he's a great villain, but an awful, irredeemable person". I've still got that obsession and thus all the relevant knowledge on the character, but I'm able to view it with a more well-rounded, grounded, and critical eye. I'm glad that you appreciate this thread; it's my first on this site, and I wasn't entirely sure how it was going to go/people were going to react. Always nice to meet a fellow F4 fan who also likes and respects Doom's character for what (I believe) it's supposed to be without going too far the other direction and hating him, as some people who are sick of the "Doomwank" (thanks, Reddit) do.

[Alan2099]

I've never believed that Mr. Fantastic was smarter than Doom. In fact, there are plenty of areas where Doom completlery outshines Reed. Art, culture, politics, magic, etc.

I think what gets to Doom is that Reed is smart enough to pick out Doom's flaws. Doom is very much a big picture, dramatic guy while Reed is a scientists that focuses on details. Doom's plans and machines may be 99.99% perfect, but Reed can look at them and see that .01 flaw and that's the kind of thing that drives Doom mad. He can't have flaws. HE IS DOOM!

I actually think Unthinkable does a wonderful job showing us the difference between the two men. The story starts with Doom sacrificing his only "loved one" while it focuses on Reed trying to save his own loved one. While Reed can find strength in others, Doom can only take it. Reed is able to defeat Doom by trusting others and admitting he doesn't know everything and doesn't know what he's doing here in particular while Doom's defeat comes from the fact that he can't admit anybody helped him.

It's also really telling by how Doom traps and eventually punishes Reed. He sticks Reed in a room where he can't get out of without admitting he's clueless. To Doom, admitting something like that is ...well, unthinkable. He expects Reed to behave the same way. Likewise, what's his final shot at Reed? The toprment that he doesn't think Mr. Fantastic will be able to handle? He scars his face.

Finally, I think Waid's take aligns a little better with Doom's childhood. This was a guy who was persecuted since birth for being a part of a minority ethnic group, and on top of that was ostracized within his own community for his mother's witchcraft. He was spit on left and right just for existing, and treated with suspicion, contempt, revulsion, fear, and even hatred just because of his parentage, his ethnic heritage, and his interest in magic. The idea that he endures an entire childhood of this maltreatment and comes out thinking that he's the hottest **** on God's green earth just doesn't make sense to me.

To me, it makes perfect sense. He had a horribly traumatized youth that he's trying to severely overcompensate for. He was poor and homeless? Well, now he's never going to be poor and homeless again! The ruler of his country was a horrible person that made everyone miserable? Well, he's going to take over and be a great person and nobody will be miserable. Or else.

[williamtheday]

Of course, what kept Doom from crossing the line back in the day was The Comics Code.

[grilledcheesing]

To me, it makes perfect sense. He had a horribly traumatized youth that he's trying to severely overcompensate for. He was poor and homeless? Well, now he's never going to be poor and homeless again! The ruler of his country was a horrible person that made everyone miserable? Well, he's going to take over and be a great person and nobody will be miserable. Or else.

Oh yeah, I don't have a problem with him massively overcompensating. I agree with Waid that "massively overcompensating" is basically the character in a nutshell. What I was specifically expressing dislike for is the interpretation of Doom as someone who isn't insecure or overcompensating and honestly believes in himself with every fiber of his being. I don't buy that for someone who was subject to the trauma he was while growing up, which was then capped off by him scarring his face and failing his mother out of his own inadequate calculations. There's no way he comes out of that with intact self-esteem. Sorry if I didn't make that clear initially.

As a side note, I think his deeper self-loathing and trauma is excellently portrayed by his treatment of his people. Think about it: as a child, Doom suffered terrible abuse and trauma at the hands of a cruel dictator, who irrationally and unjustly blamed a group of people (the Roma gypsy minority, and Doom's father in particular) for his problems (most of which were of his own creation). As an adult, Doom...is a cruel dictator, who irrationally and unjustly blames a group of people (the Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards in particular) for his problems, the majority of which he is responsible for. It's like a chronic Stockholm Syndrome thing, where he copies and internalizes his abuser while being in complete denial about it. Brilliant character work on the writer's parts, and yet another reason why I dislike the "benevolent dictator" shtick, as it strips this tragic aspect of the character off.

[K7P5V]

Annual 2 would be the best source, but I can't access mine now.

Indeed. From F4 Annual #2, you be the judge...

[DigiCom]

You know... I've always liked the nobler versions of Doom (in particular, the 2099 version), so Waid's "back-to-the beginning" version (which erased pretty much ALL of that) was the one part of his FF run I disliked, and I don't see much benefit in the whole "he's really just insecure" bit.

But Doom's current depiction drives me nuts. Especially the way his magickal side has basically erased everything else. At first, he knew a few tricks (and one of those was alien science, not magic), but science was his forte, as his role as the rival of (the accursed) Reed Richards demanded.

In perhaps his best story of the '80s, he only barely managed to hear the call of the Vishanti, and came in second not by dint of skill or power, but cunning.

But over time, his mystical skill has taken over more and more of his persona, so that not only does he have power to rival that of the Sorcerer Supreme, but he now actively desires the role.

It's gotten to the point that the only reason he cares about Reed at all is inertia. How can he prove himself his better, when they now focus on completely different skill sets?

[Doom'nGloom]

Oh yeah, I don't have a problem with him massively overcompensating. I agree with Waid that "massively overcompensating" is basically the character in a nutshell. What I was specifically expressing dislike for is the interpretation of Doom as someone who isn't insecure or overcompensating and honestly believes in himself with every fiber of his being. I don't buy that for someone who was subject to the trauma he was while growing up, which was then capped off by him scarring his face and failing his mother out of his own inadequate calculations. There's no way he comes out of that with intact self-esteem. Sorry if I didn't make that clear initially.

As a side note, I think his deeper self-loathing and trauma is excellently portrayed by his treatment of his people. Think about it: as a child, Doom suffered terrible abuse and trauma at the hands of a cruel dictator, who irrationally and unjustly blamed a group of people (the Roma gypsy minority, and Doom's father in particular) for his problems (most of which were of his own creation). As an adult, Doom...is a cruel dictator, who irrationally and unjustly blames a group of people (the Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards in particular) for his problems, the majority of which he is responsible for. It's like a chronic Stockholm Syndrome thing, where he copies and internalizes his abuser while being in complete denial about it. Brilliant character work on the writer's parts, and yet another reason why I dislike the "benevolent dictator" shtick, as it strips this tragic aspect of the character off.

I think how much Doom is a "benevolent dictator" depends on how much you consider someone like Napoleon Bonaparte a "benevolent dictator". Some people think of Doom as comic book Stalin or Hitler. He's much closer to Napoleon in my opinion. Napoleon was born into a family of minor Corsican nobility. Corsicans were seen as secondary class citizens at that time. He became a symbol of the french revolution. He was more popular with the people than the bourbons who ruled prior to the revolution. When he came to power he made himself the emperor of the french and took some of the rights french people gained during the revolution. He was a great propagandist and controlled the press. See the irony? Through Napoleonic wars he was spreading revolutionary ideas to continental europe... at least in his head. In reality he's an egotist whose ambitions led to the deaths of millions throughout europe. Was he all bad though? Nope. He established some key institutions that still endure. His civil code influences our modern day world. So was he a dictator? Yes. Was he hell walking on earth? Hell no, there are historical figures far more deserving of that title. But he was a nasty man whose positive actions doesn't negate the fact that he is a historical "bad guy". Sounds familiar?

One last thing, people often romanticize Napoleon like comic fans do with Doom. But I haven't seen anyone romanticize Hitler, well except for neo nazis.

[grilledcheesing]

You know... I've always liked the nobler versions of Doom (in particular, the 2099 version), so Waid's "back-to-the beginning" version (which erased pretty much ALL of that) was the one part of his FF run I disliked, and I don't see much benefit in the whole "he's really just insecure" bit.

Agree to disagree -- I think Doom being insecure adds a layer of self-awareness and self-destructiveness (why would he double-down on the farce and refuse to face his mistakes, even as Reed defeats him again and again, if he's so self-assured that he can face that he is wrong? Why go after Reed at all, if he has no problem stomaching the idea that the man is smarter than him and that the accident was actually his own fault?) to the character that helps contextualize less "noble" takes on him like Waid's, whose interpretation is often accused of being one-dimensional (I've actually occasionally heard this criticism around the internet for Doom as a character in general, not just Waid's take on him). I also think it's a stronger and more deeply personal motivation than just "I am the undisputed best, and the world needs to acknowledge that/Reed Richards is just jealous and he needs to pay for what he's done to me", the latter of which flies in the face of his supposed nobility -- if he's so noble, why try to not just hurt/kill Reed but also his innocent associates and family, including his children (and Waid is not the only writer that does this)? Why do it so sadistically, too (again, Waid is not the only writer showing his cruelty)?

I guess I just personally dislike the idea that he's 100% sure of himself, because it seemingly changes his behavior from a conscious decision (I refuse to accept that I am less intelligent/not perfect, because I don't want to face the implications of that) to almost an involuntary compulsion (I am quite literally neuropsychologically incapable of considering that I could ever be wrong or imperfect, the same way a colorblind person can't see purple). The former gives the character agency and depth, the latter gives him...a really bizarre mental handicap. But I digress.

But Doom's current depiction drives me nuts. Especially the way his magickal side has basically erased everything else. At first, he knew a few tricks (and one of those was alien science, not magic), but science was his forte, as his role as the rival of (the accursed) Reed Richards demanded.

In perhaps his best story of the '80s, he only barely managed to hear the call of the Vishanti, and came in second not by dint of skill or power, but cunning.

But over time, his mystical skill has taken over more and more of his persona, so that not only does he have power to rival that of the Sorcerer Supreme, but he now actively desires the role.

It's gotten to the point that the only reason he cares about Reed at all is inertia. How can he prove himself his better, when they now focus on completely different skill sets?

Couldn't have put this better myself. Making the character supremely magically powerful takes attention away from his technological genius (which defined his character for the first 40-45 years of its existence) and reduces the showings we have of the cleverness and cunning which made him somewhat of an underdog that you could at least appreciate for his immense talent, even as you hated him for his awful behavior.

The character's genius has gotten erased to the point that I've seen a few Reddit and Comicvine threads discussing Lex Luthor vs. Doom casually stating that Lex is "the much smarter of the two men" and "Lex is the genius we're always TOLD Doom is" and so on, which feels like a war crime to me. Not that Lex isn't smart, for any ardent Lexperts out there -- I personally always put them on par with each other -- but I think it just goes to show how much Doom's genius has been erased in recent years in favor of his magic side.

[Iron Maiden]

Simply because, outside of Strange's or Rider's well established rogues gallery, named demons aren't all that common in Marvel. Also, why should they be reused just to prove their relevance? That's ridiculous when you think of some of the very powerful entities who have been one and done in 60 years of comics. Ever hear of Ebon Seeker?

Sigh, that one story doesn't give him experience with all the machinations of the underworld.

Yeah and FF200 rarely ever gets referenced either. What's your point?

FF #200? I haven't discussed that here. That is a story that features Doom but it's not relevant to anything to do with what it being discussed.

Someone else here posted a scene from the Doom origin story in FF annual #2 showing Victor as a child finding his mother's chest filled with magic potions. The panel from Astonishing Tales #8 I posted is a precursor to Triumph and Torment where he battles a demon to free his mother. The villagers are aware that every Midsummer's Eve "Doom calls up demons and battles them 'til the early hours of the next day's dawn". It isn't clear for how many years this has been going on...probably as long as Doom has been in power. In Triumph and Torment, he tells Doctor Strange of this annual duel and Strange is impressed that he has survived the ordeal.

[Iron Maiden]

Well, you certainly bring the receipts and it's refreshing to see the Doom apologists in this group stymied. I've got so many books that involve Doom (more than the apologists) but I simply cannot get as obsessed with him as some members have. He's a great character, but he is no anti hero worthy of the worship some people here offer.

How do you know you have more books? I've got quite a few Masterworks volumes of the Fantastic Four, including the Lee/Kirby run, John Byrne, Secret Wars (1985), Children's Crusade, etc. I even have a Fantastic Four #60 by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee from the 1960s. But what is the point? I also subscribe to Marvel Unlimited so I can access even more using that

No one is "worshipping" him here. I am simply a fan who gets a kick out of reading Doom and his adventures / misadventures. Even the Santa Doom story "I'll Be Doom For Christmas"

[grilledcheesing]

I think how much Doom is a "benevolent dictator" depends on how much you consider someone like Napoleon Bonaparte a "benevolent dictator". Some people think of Doom as comic book Stalin or Hitler. He's much closer to Napoleon in my opinion. Napoleon was born into a family of minor Corsican nobility. Corsicans were seen as secondary class citizens at that time. He became a symbol of the french revolution. He was more popular with the people than the bourbons who ruled prior to the revolution. When he came to power he made himself the emperor of the french and took some of the rights french people gained during the revolution. He was a great propagandist and controlled the press. See the irony? Through Napoleonic wars he was spreading revolutionary ideas to continental europe... at least in his head. In reality he's an egotist whose ambitions led to the deaths of millions throughout europe. Was he all bad though? Nope. He established some key institutions that still endure. His civil code influences our modern day world. So was he a dictator? Yes. Was he hell walking on earth? Hell no, there are historical figures far more deserving of that title. But he was a nasty man whose positive actions doesn't negate the fact that he is a historical "bad guy". Sounds familiar?

One last thing, people often romanticize Napoleon like comic fans do with Doom. But I haven't seen anyone romanticize Hitler, well except for neo nazis.

The Brits, Spanish, Russians, Austrians, Danish, Germans, Portuguese, Swedish, Turkish, and Haitians might dispute that. And that's not me being facetious -- I have genuinely seen online conversations where people of these nationalities express their utter loathing for Napoleon and characterize him as genocidal and/or proslavery (whether that's historically correct or not is beyond me -- my knowledge of autocrats lies more in the 20th/21st centuries). And when people try to counter these responses by pointing out the positives Napoleon achieved (like him, quote, "creating the conditions for modern Europe" or "In The Netherlands we still have the roads he built, the laws we use. He made us from a federation of provinces to a single country"), the responses are usually sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek, along the lines of "Yeah we really needed Napoleon to become an effective Republic" or "Sounds like you should be grateful he brought civilization to Hispania!", etc.

Regarding how this all applies to Doom: I agree that he shouldn't be written like a modern-day Caligula who feeds his people to wild dogs as a form of entertainment, or goes around taking advantage of his female citizens, or whatever. And I agree that he should be portrayed as having made Latveria MATERIALLY better off. What I disagree with is the idea that Latveria can't function without him, or that his people aren't brainwashed/have a severely skewed frame of reference when it comes to living arrangements and must genuinely love him because he's the best politician/ruler in Marvel, or that his autocratic rule is better than a free democracy because the material things his citizens have are "worth it".

Like those people mocking the idea that they "needed" Napoleon to develop, the Latverians do not "need" Doom -- no one "needs" a dictatorship. Arguably the only time an autocracy is ever needed is in that very brief period of power vacuum/utter chaotic anarchy after a previous ruler/political structure is deposed, where you need swift order and don't have time for bureaucracy. A good analogy that I saw someone make was that dictatorship is like the chemotherapy to violent anarchy/conflict's cancer; the drugs are almost as bad as the cancer itself, but you need them to eliminate the disease. Once the cancer has been eliminated, however, you definitely want to stop taking those drugs. And that's where Doom falls down -- he refuses to try and institute a free and fair system where Latverians have a say in their own government, instead continuing to suppress human rights under the rule of his iron fist (whether you interpret him as doing this because he genuinely believes his rule is best as you seem to, or that he's acting selfishly in the interest of propping up his own fragile ego as I do, is an individual choice). It's the classic security vs. freedom question, and Doom comes down hard on the "security" side of the debate.

Ultimately, this really doesn't make him any better than the baron who ruled over him as a child (minus the ethnic discrimination, I suppose). Latverians have no autonomy at all. They cannot say what they want. They cannot do what they want. They cannot choose their own rulers. They cannot leave the country without permission. He snaps, they jump. Doom even has laws surrounding when they put their kids to bed -- which is played for humor, of course, but in reality is an invasive and infantilizing violation of privacy, presumably enforced by some sort of surveillance. I don't think it's controversial to say that people everywhere deserve the right to make their own decisions about their own lives – and in the Marvel Universe, that includes Latverians. People deserve to be able to go when and where they want to go. People deserve not to be brutally assassinated, tortured, massacred, spied on, kidnapped, imprisoned, or experimented on when they speak out about what they believe, all of which Doom has done even outside of Waid's run.

My point here is, unlike Napoleon (who seemingly did actually create some lasting good; like I said, I'm not as educated on him), I'm not sure that Doom really did anything "good" that counterbalances his bad on a large scale. Latveria was perfectly capable of achieving those high material living standards without an oppressive dictatorship, so Victor deliberately choosing a more violent, egocentric method that resulted in the same infrastructure development as a more liberal structure of power could have, minus the mental, emotional, and psychological freedom, happiness, and autonomy of his citizens, just doesn't strike me as very "good" or "benevolent".

Once again, I think Waid's run sums it up the best: when the F4 invade Latveria, Ben lists everything right with Latveria, and admits that Doom did "take care of them". Reed immediately snaps back, "Like pets." And that's it. That single exchange encapsulates Doom's relationship with his citizens. The Latverians are just little people who exist for Doom to feel good about himself when they cheer for him or worship him, or powerful when they grovel, or triumphant when he can show them off to the world. And in return, he gives them the softest floors to kneel on and the most gilded cages to rot in as he hangs them up like old jewelry and forgets about them the instant he doesn't need them in that given moment to elevate his self-esteem. The same way he had no use for adult Valeria until she could give him power, or Kristoff until he could use him to continue his rule through, or Reed's kids and wife until they could make him feel like a better husband/father/ruler/man in Secret Wars 2015. Victor is simply incapable of being the man he wants to be because of his own perfectionism preventing him from acknowledging his flaws or connecting on the level of others, and he knows it, but he feels powerless to do anything about -- like he's in a Catch-22 situation, where if he genuinely tries to be a good man then he falls short of his own impossible standards (because perfect men in his mind don't need others, they don't rely on others' input because they should get everything right the first time and satisfy everyone, they aren't the second-smartest as he is to Reed) and hates himself, but if he denies his imperfections and instead tells himself that he's right and everyone else is just too jealous/short-sighted to see it, this spares his fragile ego and sense of self but is extremely isolating and not actually true or REAL (and he knows it), and so he is still left hollow and empty and dissatisfied. He's an incredibly tragic (if irredeemable and unsympathetic) character, and I'm glad that we can have discussions like this about him.

Btw, I hope this doesn't come across as lecturing -- that wasn't my intention! I just have a lot to say about this character and I find it difficult to articulate concisely, as I'm sure you can see lol. I appreciate your perspective, and it seems like we roughly agree on how his dictatorship should be portrayed, at any rate.

[Iron Maiden]

You know... I've always liked the nobler versions of Doom (in particular, the 2099 version), so Waid's "back-to-the beginning" version (which erased pretty much ALL of that) was the one part of his FF run I disliked, and I don't see much benefit in the whole "he's really just insecure" bit.

But Doom's current depiction drives me nuts. Especially the way his magickl side has basically erased everything else. At first, he knew a few tricks (and one of those was alien science, not magic), but science was his forte, as his role as the rival of (the accursed) Reed Richards demanded.

In perhaps his best story of the '80s, he only barely managed to hear the call of the Vishanti, and came in second not by dint of skill or power, but cunning.

But over time, his mystical skill has taken over more and more of his persona, so that not only does he have power to rival that of the Sorcerer Supreme, but he now actively desires the role.

It's gotten to the point that the only reason he cares about Reed at all is inertia. How can he prove himself his better, when they now focus on completely different skill sets?

I would like to see a more balance there also. But there is a recent example of where Doom shows a bit more of his technical genius and Doom describes how his time platform differs from other more "amateurish" versions if grilledcheesing will excuse me posting the panel from last months Venom #24 (writer Al Ewing)

[grilledcheesing]

You mean where Doom passed the purity test by Bast? Yes, I can see why some would not like that.

Sorry for not responding to this sooner. Yes, I was referring to Bast, but also a lot of other things, like the F4 letting their toddler daughter hang out with Doom, or that scene in Infamous where that Latverian citizen tells Ben she would love to have Doom back, or that part of Zdarsky's F4/X-Men where Doom hypocritically chews out Xavier, etc. I think a lot of people are getting sick and tired of some writers/fans pretending like Doom has the moral high ground, or that he's "actually got a point" and it's the ignorant, short-sighted, and narcissistic heroes who are the REAL villains here who are being entirely unreasonable for disliking/distrusting/trying to arrest or subdue Doom, when the dude is literally a dictator with a kill count higher than math can number (when you consider all the universes he blew up in Secret Wars 2015 and the other one in Cantwell's 2019 run, never mind all the innocent people he's casually murdered on a whim over the years). They have literally every right and reason to want to see him brought to justice, Doom’s change of heart (or occasional helpful behavior) be damned. He doesn’t just get to wake up one day and decide that he wants to be a good guy now after the trail of destruction he’s left in his wake, or expect that everyone will forgive him or at least leave him be and stop trying to bring him to justice just for one good deed (like doting on Valeria), as if that somehow “makes up” for a lifetime of unrepentant large-scale villainy, or the villainy he actively still engages in.

BTW, I recently re-read the Infamous Iron Man series when I bought the collected version of that. This takes place after Secret Wars 2015 where Reed had restored Doom's face at the end of the story. Bendis is usually hit or miss for me but I think he had a fresh take on the character. He relinquishes control of Latveria and tries to live as a private citizen. The problem is neither the heroes nor the villains trust his motivations. Unfortunately when the series ended and his story was picked up in Dan Slott's Fantastic Four, there was very little follow up.

I've also read Infamous Iron Man. I admittedly wasn't very impressed, and it was primarily because of this:

The problem is neither the heroes nor the villains trust his motivations.

No, the problem is that rather than submit himself (like literally everyone else who commits crimes) to the impartial justice/judgement of the people, institutions, and laws that he flagrantly violated in the past but supposedly has a newfound respect for, he decides that he shouldn't get jail time, actually, and that it would just be much better if everyone would let him do his thing and let bygones be bygones so that we can all move on. That's not justice, and it's definitely not redemption, because there's no actual change in his character here, or effort to make amends with humanity. He's still operating from this place of "I am better, I am different, I am above your petty emotions and punishments and legal systems, now just shut up and accept however I see fit to help you." I never really got the feeling that he was sorry for the damage he did; or rather, I think he was sorry, but it was for himself and how hard it made his life now that he was trying to change and no one would trust him, not because he actually empathized with the people he hurt. This Tumblr post puts it better than I can (it's a response to the question of whether or not they personally thought that Reed would be proud of Victor for trying to change):

[[[Eh, I don’t know, I waffle on this. Likely he’d be proud of Victor for trying, but personally, I think Victor is demonstrating, during his “redemption,” precisely the same arrogance that has corrupted him all his life.

Victor. You don’t get to just decide that you don’t need to be brought to justice for all of your crimes. You are biased. You need to turn yourself in and let yourself be held legally accountable by impartial third parties. That is what justice looks like. A dictator who has spent over a decade terrorizing his people, who has murdered hundreds if not thousands of his own people, should not get to hang out in pretty mountain villas. That’s what impunity looks like, not redemption. Victor should be in a tiny jail cell so that all of the people who have suffered and died because of him can achieve some peace of mind. They deserve that much. Any redemption arc that is focused on the emotions of the bad guy rather than foregrounding his victims’ pain, anger, despair, etc. is not...really a redemption arc. His redemption shouldn’t be about him, it should be about the people he hurt. Like Ben.

I mean. OF COURSE Ben, for one, wants to see Victor arrested and brought to trial. Doom murdered him not too long ago. Sure, Reed figured out how to rescue Ben from heaven, but Ben did, in fact, die, and it was deeply traumatic for all of the Fantastic Four. It nearly tore them apart entirely, and Reed came close to self-destructing without Ben. I can understand why Ben’s holding a very justified grudge, and I am upset that IIM seems to be implying that he’s being unreasonable because of it and that it’s positioning VICTOR as the victim. Holy ****, no, stop. Dictators who have evaded responsibility for their crimes do not deserve our sympathy and they’re sure as **** not victims.

Suffice it to say, Victor has a lot to answer for. I could list every terrible thing he’s done, but we’d be here all day.]]]

Look, I get that this is comicsland, where the rules of the real world aren't really in play (including politics), and that things like magic and aliens and impossible physics also happen -- but that's all in good fun. Treating a mass-murdering dictator like he's the victim and everyone else is the ******* for not believing in/supporting him while he escapes justice because he doesn't think he should have to turn himself in, just strikes me as being in bad taste. ESPECIALLY now in 2023, given certain world events going on right now.

But there is a recent example of where Doom shows a bit more of his technical genius and Doom describes how his time platform differs from other more "amateurish" versions if grilledcheesing will excuse me posting the panel from last months Venom #24 (writer Al Ewing)

I grant you my pardon, lol.