If you got to do a Batman Year Four, how would it be?

[Frontier]

The history of Batgirl is the history of her debut age getting younger and younger as the ship between her and Dick became a thing .

[Restingvoice]

I'm counting the early villains
Pre Crisis
Pre Robin - Hugo Strange - The Monk
Post Crisis
Pre Robin - Hugo Strange - The Monk - Joker - Catwoman - Two-Face - Ivy - Penguin - Riddler - Grundy - Hatter

I'm keeping Two-Face pre-Robin because I like the concept of Harvey being a friend who turned bad and then Robin filled that gap

The others I'm undecided.

Originally the whole thing with Ivy was she drove a rift between Dynamic Duo by seducing Bat/Bruce but in Post Crisis I think the wedge is now a romantic since Bruce was with Selina at the time? The Schumacher's Batman and Robin followed the original idea but turn it into love rivalry because Schumacher's Robin is of age. I haven't read the original Ivy debut so I don't know which one I like best. Funnily enough, I find the Schumacher version is more interesting than the Catwoman vs Ivy because I feel there's not enough investment with Bruce and Selina romance with all the murder going on.

[bat39]

The history of Batgirl is the history of her debut age getting younger and younger as the ship between her and Dick became a thing .

LOL, yeah.

Originally, she was probably closer to Bruce in age than Dick (I mean, she was in Congress during the Bronze Age so at least 25...likely in her early-to-mid 20's when she became Batgirl, at a time when Bruce was in his late 20's while Dick was in his mid-to-late teens).

I suppose, in addition to Barbara getting closer in age to Dick, Jim Gordon being de-aged is also a factor in his daughter (or niece's) de-ageing. Pre-Crisis, Gordon was old enough to be Bruce's father (Secret Origins # 6 establishes him as an old friend of Bruce's Uncle Phillip). Post-Crisis, he's usually shown to be about 10-15 years older than Bruce at most (I mean, he's probably just past 40 in Year One, with Bruce at 25-26).

I'm okay with Barbara being de-aged a bit and being closer to Dick age-wise, but I still prefer her becoming Batgirl in her late teens at least. Maybe she's 18 and interning at the Gotham City Library before going to college when she first goes to that policeman's ball in her Batgirl costume and takes on Killer Moth. Or she's a prodigy who finished college early. But I don't want her as another 14-15 year old teenage sidekick who Batman takes under his wing.

I'm counting the early villains
Pre Crisis
Pre Robin - Hugo Strange - The Monk
Post Crisis
Pre Robin - Hugo Strange - The Monk - Joker - Catwoman - Two-Face - Ivy - Penguin - Riddler - Grundy - Hatter

I'm keeping Two-Face pre-Robin because I like the concept of Harvey being a friend who turned bad and then Robin filled that gap

The others I'm undecided.

Originally the whole thing with Ivy was she drove a rift between Dynamic Duo by seducing Bat/Bruce but in Post Crisis I think the wedge is now a romantic since Bruce was with Selina at the time? The Schumacher's Batman and Robin followed the original idea but turn it into love rivalry because Schumacher's Robin is of age. I haven't read the original Ivy debut so I don't know which one I like best. Funnily enough, I find the Schumacher version is more interesting than the Catwoman vs Ivy because I feel there's not enough investment with Bruce and Selina romance with all the murder going on.

I'm keeping Two-Face pre-Robin because I like the concept of Harvey being a friend who turned bad and then Robin filled that gap

The others I'm undecided.

Originally the whole thing with Ivy was she drove a rift between Dynamic Duo by seducing Bat/Bruce but in Post Crisis I think the wedge is now a romantic since Bruce was with Selina at the time? The Schumacher's Batman and Robin followed the original idea but turn it into love rivalry because Schumacher's Robin is of age. I haven't read the original Ivy debut so I don't know which one I like best. Funnily enough, I find the Schumacher version is more interesting than the Catwoman vs Ivy because I feel there's not enough investment with Bruce and Selina romance with all the murder going on.[/QUOTE]

You forgot Dr. Death Who was the first super-villain Pre-Crisis, and reintroduced as one of the first villains in Zero Year (after the Red Hood Gang).

I read the first Poison Ivy story ages ago but honestly don't remember the plot Read the Post-Crisis version of their first encounter too, and Selina was nowhere in the picture there, so not sure where you're getting that from (maybe you're remembering something from The Long Halloween?)

I'd kinda prefer the idea of Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze debuting later...during Year Four or Year Five, since they are legit supervillains with powers, as opposed to insane costumed crooks with a gimmick. Ditto with the Matt Hagen Clayface. But I'm not too hung up on it. Ra's al Ghul though is someone who's very much a villain for an experienced Batman.

[thwhtGuardian]

I just don't see why it makes sense for her to debut later. It only happened that way originally because there were literally decades of stories with out her so it didn't make sense to try and say she had been there all along.

[Frontier]

Summer of Lies did a lot of cute stuff with teen Batgirl and Robin.

[bat39]

I just don't see why it makes sense for her to debut later. It only happened that way originally because there were literally decades of stories with out her so it didn't make sense to try and say she had been there all along.

It makes sense because that's how it happened. I don't particularly see the need to change it.

It also makes sense because its more in keeping with how Batgirl has traditionally been portrayed - as an extended part of the Bat-family who works with Batman and Robin, but isn't just another sidekick or 'family member'. Yes, she has more proximity to Batman than Batwoman does (the Kate Kane version I mean), but far less than any Robin.

Now its not that this is something that has to be sacrosanct just because it happened that way in the comics originally. For instance, Alfred originally met Bruce after Dick was already Robin, and it was as late as 1987 that he was retconned into being at Wayne Manor since Bruce's childhood (which over time was expanded into him being Bruce's surrogate father, essentially). Its a retcon that stuck because writers effectively built on it over the course of decades, both within the comics and, more importantly, adaptations.

Retconning Barbara into a teenager who joined Batman and Robin pretty early on was also attempted in Batgirl Year One. But for whatever reason, that retcon was never really focused on much. A teenage Dick and Barbara working together at the start of their respective superhero careers is an interesting premise no doubt, but not a lot has been done with it. In the meantime, adaptations like BTAS went the traditional route of a young adult Barbara putting on the cowl years into Dick's career as Robin (the DCAMU made her a teenager, but had her debut during Damian's time as Robin!) And then when you consider Morrison restoring a lot of Batman's Golden Age/Silver Age history and bringing back Kathy Kane's Batwoman and Bette Kane's Bat-Girl, it logically means that Barbara had to debut later.

[phonogram12]

For me, Y4 would be about Dick getting his feet wet as a crimefighter and adjusting even further to the late nights and lack of sleep being one and being a f/t student at the same time. In my head canon, Y4 is also the same year that the JLA is formed, but your mileage may vary.

[bat39]

For me, Y4 would be about Dick getting his feet wet as a crimefighter and adjusting even further to the late nights and lack of sleep being one and being a f/t student at the same time. In my head canon, Y4 is also the same year that the JLA is formed, but your mileage may vary.

Nah, I totally agree with you. I think the JL might have formed towards the end of Y4, but really gets into full-swing in Y5. Not that I think a Batman Year Four series should really focus too much on other superheroes. But their presence is far more justified in a Year Four Batman story than they would be in Year One/Two/Three Batman stories.

It makes sense to me that Batman first meets Superman during Year Two, and that they begin their regular World's Finest team-ups in Year Three/Four, after Dick has become Robin. They meet Wonder Woman sometime during this period as well. By the end of Year Four, the iconic Silver Age heroes have all showed up and the Justice League is formed.

I think the Teen Titans are a Year Six thing.

[exile001]

I just don't see why it makes sense for her to debut later. It only happened that way originally because there were literally decades of stories with out her so it didn't make sense to try and say she had been there all along.

What's the argument to bring it forward, though? What exactly is gained by her being around longer? Same question for Ra's, Croc, etc.

Did Batman meet every single important character in year 1-3, joined the Justice League and met nobody new for a decade, then eventually Bane, Batwoman, the Court of Owls and a few Robins suddenly rocked up?

To my mind, pacing things out gives different years and eras more depth. Barbara coming in later gives a focus to her time rather than lumping her in with everything else.

I do think Barbara should get way more of a distinction as the second partner, though, even if that wasn't so much the case originally. Usually Jason gets noted as the second Robin, but Babs predates him by a while and should have more cachet for it.

[bat39]

What's the argument to bring it forward, though? What exactly is gained by her being around longer? Same question for Ra's, Croc, etc.

Did Batman meet every single important character in year 1-3, joined the Justice League and met nobody new for a decade, then eventually Bane, Batwoman, the Court of Owls and a few Robins suddenly rocked up?

To my mind, pacing things out gives different years and eras more depth. Barbara coming in later gives a focus to her time rather than lumping her in with everything else.

I do think Barbara should get way more of a distinction as the second partner, though, even if that wasn't so much the case originally. Usually Jason gets noted as the second Robin, but Babs predates him by a while and should have more cachet for it.

Agreed.

From a logical perspective too...there's a sudden supervillain boom during the early years of Batman's career and then nothing for a long while?

Though at this point, I've become accustomed to the idea of most of the big-name villains debuting during Years One/Two so I won't make too big a deal about it. I'd prefer 'powered' villains like Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy and the Matt Hagen Clayface to show up later, ideally, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if they appear earlier.

But Ra's al Ghul is someone who should absolutely not be an 'early years' villain. He's a far more appropriate antagonist for a Batman who's a veteran crime-fighter and Justice League member known across the globe.

Yes I know Batman Begins had him be Batman's very first adversary, but that's an adaptation that substantially changed the nature of Bruce and Ra's relationship (and also merged Ra's with Henri Ducard). For the mainstream comics, Ra's makes much more sense as an adversary to an experienced Batman.

As far as Barbara goes, the thing is that Batgirl has typically never really been a partner to Batman the same way Robin is. On a spectrum where Robin is the closest and someone like a Batwoman or a Huntress is the furthest, Batgirl falls somewhere in the middle IMO. Batgirl is an independent hero who was inspired by Batman, worked occasionally with Batman and Robin, and then gradually became a bigger part of their world without ever fully getting sucked in.

Batgirl is neither Batman's primary sidekick (that's always been Robin), nor was she someone who was adopted or taken in by Bruce Wayne. And her starting out as an adult I think further cements that distinction. However, unlike Kate Kane, Barbara became part of the Bat-family and developed a closer personal relationship with Bruce and Dick.

[PurpleGlovez]

Nah, I think on a long enough timeline, Ra's and Talia belong during Dick's college era in Year Seven/Eight. If that means Batman is now on Year Twenty (or further) then so be it. Ra's picked the world's greatest detective and an internationally renowned crime-fighter to be his successor, not a rookie vigilante or an up-and-coming superhero who still spent most of his time contending with laughing gas and trick umbrellas.

In DC's official timelines in the 90s and early 2000s, they actually did push Ra's al Ghul's first encounter with Bruce up to Dick's first year as Robin. This is also the case in Matt Wagner's Trinity mini-series which has Ra's as an established Bat-villain in the pre-JLA days, with a young Robin. But then in Hush I think it specifically says Dick was kidnapped from his "dorm room" or something, so who knows.

The extended Robin, Batgirl, and Nightwing Year One series seems to have been DC's expansion of the "Year" storylines. I believe Chuck Dixon said they were going to do another one with Jason and Barbara going through Killing Joke and Death in the Family, but it got scrapped, with some elements ending up in Scott Beatty's Gotham Knights run.

[bat39]

In DC's official timelines in the 90s and early 2000s, they actually did push Ra's al Ghul's first encounter with Bruce up to Dick's first year as Robin. This is also the case in Matt Wagner's Trinity mini-series which has Ra's as an established Bat-villain in the pre-JLA days, with a young Robin. But then in Hush I think it specifically says Dick was kidnapped from his "dorm room" or something, so who knows.

The extended Robin, Batgirl, and Nightwing Year One series seems to have been DC's expansion of the "Year" storylines. I believe Chuck Dixon said they were going to do another one with Jason and Barbara going through Killing Joke and Death in the Family, but it got scrapped, with some elements ending up in Scott Beatty's Gotham Knights run.

Didn't know about the official timelines. I've read Hush though and remembered the reference to Dick being kidnapped from his college dorm, as in the original story. To me it confirmed that the O'Neil/Adams Ra's al Ghul stories remained intact in Post-Crisis continuity as published.

Not sure what the motivation would have been to put Batman's first encounter with Ra's and Talia earlier in his career - especially at a time before Damian was in the picture.

Trinity I believe was anyway sort of out-of-continuity to begin with (by current standards it'd probably be considered Black Label)...mainly since Wonder Woman wouldn't have been around before the League was formed.

Didn't know much about Scott Beatty's 'Gotham Knights' run, but looked it up now and came across these two fascinating articles from his blog. Turns out I had read the Jason-Barbara team-up years ago! The blog's got some interesting stuff on there...must check out the rest of Beatty's run at some point.

It'd have been great to get a 'Jason Todd Year One' (though you kinda had a bit of it in Nightwing Year One). That said, what fascinates me about a potential Year Four is that its not an origin story for anyone per se (except maybe Kathy Kane Batwoman) but rather simply about the 'classic' Batman and Robin status quo falling into place. So many of the 'flashback' Batman stories are centered either on the early years and character's origins, or around a few crucial later events like Dick's transition to Nightwing (also an origin story, in a sense). To my knowledge, we've rarely gotten much 'modern' re-exploration of the peak Golden Age/Silver Age era or even the early Bronze Age.

Anyway, here are the Beatty articles.

https://scottbeatty.blogspot.com/202...t-beattys.html

https://scottbeatty.blogspot.com/202...-explains.html

I find it a bit weird that he tried to retcon the yellow oval into being something Bruce adopted after Jason's death!

[Restingvoice]

LOL, yeah.

Originally, she was probably closer to Bruce in age than Dick (I mean, she was in Congress during the Bronze Age so at least 25...likely in her early-to-mid 20's when she became Batgirl, at a time when Bruce was in his late 20's while Dick was in his mid-to-late teens).

I suppose, in addition to Barbara getting closer in age to Dick, Jim Gordon being de-aged is also a factor in his daughter (or niece's) de-ageing. Pre-Crisis, Gordon was old enough to be Bruce's father (Secret Origins # 6 establishes him as an old friend of Bruce's Uncle Phillip). Post-Crisis, he's usually shown to be about 10-15 years older than Bruce at most (I mean, he's probably just past 40 in Year One, with Bruce at 25-26).

I'm okay with Barbara being de-aged a bit and being closer to Dick age-wise, but I still prefer her becoming Batgirl in her late teens at least. Maybe she's 18 and interning at the Gotham City Library before going to college when she first goes to that policeman's ball in her Batgirl costume and takes on Killer Moth. Or she's a prodigy who finished college early. But I don't want her as another 14-15 year old teenage sidekick who Batman takes under his wing.



I'm keeping Two-Face pre-Robin because I like the concept of Harvey being a friend who turned bad and then Robin filled that gap

The others I'm undecided.

Originally the whole thing with Ivy was she drove a rift between Dynamic Duo by seducing Bat/Bruce but in Post Crisis I think the wedge is now a romantic since Bruce was with Selina at the time? The Schumacher's Batman and Robin followed the original idea but turn it into love rivalry because Schumacher's Robin is of age. I haven't read the original Ivy debut so I don't know which one I like best. Funnily enough, I find the Schumacher version is more interesting than the Catwoman vs Ivy because I feel there's not enough investment with Bruce and Selina romance with all the murder going on.

You forgot Dr. Death Who was the first super-villain Pre-Crisis, and reintroduced as one of the first villains in Zero Year (after the Red Hood Gang).

I read the first Poison Ivy story ages ago but honestly don't remember the plot Read the Post-Crisis version of their first encounter too, and Selina was nowhere in the picture there, so not sure where you're getting that from (maybe you're remembering something from The Long Halloween?)

I'd kinda prefer the idea of Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze debuting later...during Year Four or Year Five, since they are legit supervillains with powers, as opposed to insane costumed crooks with a gimmick. Ditto with the Matt Hagen Clayface. But I'm not too hung up on it. Ra's al Ghul though is someone who's very much a villain for an experienced Batman.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I was talking about Long Halloween. I know Ivy's first appearance was from a Year One One Shot, but I don't remember anything from it except Alfred forcing Bruce to take a cold shower
I like that logic with powered villains coming later
Though Ivy like Clayface can be earlier if they started with just pheromone hypnosis and literal clay mask
Ra's al Ghul have to be later yeah

I did forget about Dr. Death. He goes first. Human version. We can save the bone monster version until later.
Wait, how about The Monk and Dala though? I really prefer the actual vampire. The local cult pretending to be a vampire from Mad Monk I was pretty disappointed (also kinda ridiculous to have that big of a castle at the outskirt of Gotham instead of going to Hungary)

[bat39]

Yeah I was talking about Long Halloween. I know Ivy's first appearance was from a Year One One Shot, but I don't remember anything from it except Alfred forcing Bruce to take a cold shower
I like that logic with powered villains coming later
Though Ivy like Clayface can be earlier if they started with just pheromone hypnosis and literal clay mask
Ra's al Ghul have to be later yeah

I did forget about Dr. Death. He goes first. Human version. We can save the bone monster version until later.
Wait, how about The Monk and Dala though? I really prefer the actual vampire. The local cult pretending to be a vampire from Mad Monk I was pretty disappointed (also kinda ridiculous to have that big of a castle at the outskirt of Gotham instead of going to Hungary)

I don't remember if Dr. Death came first or the Monk in terms of the sequencing of the early Kane/Finger stories. Or if the Monk counts as a 'supervillain' in the traditional sense.

But yeah - the Monk, Dr. Death, Hugo Strange - all of these are a natural fit for the Year One/Year Two era. And through the Post-Crisis retcons that are now more than well-established, the Joker, Penguin, Two Face, Riddler, Scarecrow etc. also slot in there. I'm okay with Poison Ivy and Clayface if Poison Ivy is just using phereomone hypnosis (as you've put it) and Clayface is the Basil Karlo version with the mask. I'd prefer the likes of Mr. Freeze, Matt Hagen Clayface and a fully-powered Poison Ivy (not to mention Man-Bat) to be more Year Four-ish phenomenon...though I guess the ship kinda sailed on that. Interestingly, there are persisnent rumors that Reeves intends to feature Clayface in The Batman Part II...if true, wonder which version it'll be?

In general, I'm somewhat wedded to the idea that Batman's world is pretty grounded and street-level early on, and then starts to get progressively weirder and more expansive, and a Year Four series could really focus on that transition. And yes, encountering actual superpowers like Clayface's shapeshifting is a part of that on one level, as is becoming more involved with other superheroes and helping co-found the Justice League.

(And yeah, Batman's first encounter with Superman probably occurred during Year One or Year Two...I peg it as Year Two and still picture it as the Magpie case depicted in MOS # 3. But even in that story, Superman was a very 'out-of-context' element to Batman's world, and they were teaming up to take down a jewel thief. By Year Four, Batman will start to become at ease in Superman's world, and the wider world of superheroes).

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I don't remember if Dr. Death came first or the Monk in terms of the sequencing of the early Kane/Finger stories. Or if the Monk counts as a 'supervillain' in the traditional sense.

But yeah - the Monk, Dr. Death, Hugo Strange - all of these are a natural fit for the Year One/Year Two era. And through the Post-Crisis retcons that are now more than well-established, the Joker, Penguin, Two Face, Riddler, Scarecrow etc. also slot in there. I'm okay with Poison Ivy and Clayface if Poison Ivy is just using phereomone hypnosis (as you've put it) and Clayface is the Basil Karlo version with the mask. I'd prefer the likes of Mr. Freeze, Matt Hagen Clayface and a fully-powered Poison Ivy (not to mention Man-Bat) to be more Year Four-ish phenomenon...though I guess the ship kinda sailed on that. Interestingly, there are persisnent rumors that Reeves intends to feature Clayface in The Batman Part II...if true, wonder which version it'll be?

In general, I'm somewhat wedded to the idea that Batman's world is pretty grounded and street-level early on, and then starts to get progressively weirder and more expansive, and a Year Four series could really focus on that transition.

That's the story of The Long Halloween. The villains are already established, but it's kind of how the freaks took over from the mob. TLH takes place somewhere between Year One and Year three (Year Two has been non-canonical for a long time).