If you got to do a Batman Year Four, how would it be?

[bat39]

That's the story of The Long Halloween. The villains are already established, but it's kind of how the freaks took over from the mob. TLH takes place somewhere between Year One and Year three (Year Two has been non-canonical for a long time).

Yeah I know TLH deals with the emergence of the villains and how they take over from organized crime. Year Four would be more about the transition from that phase to the full-blown comic-book craziness of the Silver Age. Thematically speaking, its about the time between the origin of Robin and the Adam West TV show/classic Batman cartoons.

As far as Year Two goes...yes, I know the actual story isn't canon anymore, but hell, maybe even parts of Year One didn't happen the same way in whatever is 'current' continuity. I'd take a broad strokes approach to the whole thing, wherein some aspects of Year Two did happen, mainly the conflict with the Reaper.

I'd actually open Year Four with a page with three panels - Batman breaking into the mayor's mansion from Year One, Batman fighting the Reaper from Year Two, and Batman bringing Dick into the Batcave from Year Three. And then Year Four begins.

[PurpleGlovez]

Trinity I believe was anyway sort of out-of-continuity to begin with (by current standards it'd probably be considered Black Label)...mainly since Wonder Woman wouldn't have been around before the League was formed.

By the early 2000s they were already massaging Diana back into the early years era of the timeline; she is mentioned in Catwoman: When in Rome, alongside an appearance from Cheetah. Trinity doesn't bear an Elseworlds label and I quite like it. Without it, we have no account of Batman and Superman's first meeting with Diana, except I suppose now that short story that Rucka wrote a few years back during his Wonder Woman run.

Year Two has been non-canonical for a long time

Actually, the Reaper was always a canonical character even after Denny O'Neil quietly tried to pretend Year Two never happened, and the events of Year Two (minus the Joe Chill storyline) are reaffirmed wholesale in 2019's Detective Comics Annual #2.

EDIT: The internal timeline of Long Halloween and Dark Victory has Dick being sworn in as Robin on Halloween of Year Five, and Robin Year One runs through the ensuing holiday season. So any "Year Four" would be more like Year Six, if you're using that.

(And yeah, Batman's first encounter with Superman probably occurred during Year One or Year Two...I peg it as Year Two and still picture it as the Magpie case depicted in MOS # 3. But even in that story, Superman was a very 'out-of-context' element to Batman's world, and they were teaming up to take down a jewel thief. By Year Four, Batman will start to become at ease in Superman's world, and the wider world of superheroes).

Man of Steel #3 claims to take place eight months after Superman's debut. Superman is mentioned on April 9th of Year One in Batman #405. Various post-Crisis references, especially during the triangle era of Superman titles, concur in placing Superman's debut in what would be September of "Year Zero", thus placing his first meeting with Batman in May of Year One, just a month or so after Batman's debut. Which actually makes sense in context, I think.

[bat39]

By the early 2000s they were already massaging Diana back into the early years era of the timeline; she is mentioned in Catwoman: When in Rome, alongside an appearance from Cheetah. Trinity doesn't bear an Elseworlds label and I quite like it. Without it, we have no account of Batman and Superman's first meeting with Diana, except I suppose now that short story that Rucka wrote a few years back during his Wonder Woman run.

Well...either they were massaging her back into the early years or some writers just forgot that she wasn't supposed to be there

Another example is Kevin Smith's 'Quiver'. Oliver is resurrected with memories of his life only up till the Hard Traveling Heroes era, but he still seems to know Diana, despite the fact that Post-Crisis, Diana wouldn't have been around back then.

Anyway, a few years later, they did restore her to the early years anyway, so no harm done. But Batman encountering Ra's al Ghul that early still feels wrong...

Actually, the Reaper was always a canonical character even after Denny O'Neil quietly tried to pretend Year Two never happened, and the events of Year Two (minus the Joe Chill storyline) are reaffirmed wholesale in 2019's Detective Comics Annual #2.

EDIT: The internal timeline of Long Halloween and Dark Victory has Dick being sworn in as Robin on Halloween of Year Five, and Robin Year One runs through the ensuing holiday season. So any "Year Four" would be more like Year Six, if you're using that.

Yeah, those 'Year X' labels are more indicative of a broad era than a hard calendar year.

That said, as much as I love TLH and DV, I kind of think of them as being in their own little bubble of continuity, much like most of LOTDK. 'Canon' if you want it to be, but other stories set in that era don't necessarily need to be beholden to them too much. And if I were to do a book called 'Year Four', I'd probably focus more on maintaining some semblance of continuity, however vague, with Years One, Two and Three...

Man of Steel #3 claims to take place eight months after Superman's debut. Superman is mentioned on April 9th of Year One in Batman #405. Various post-Crisis references, especially during the triangle era of Superman titles, concur in placing Superman's debut in what would be September of "Year Zero", thus placing his first meeting with Batman in May of Year One, just a month or so after Batman's debut. Which actually makes sense in context, I think.

Haven't deep-dived into the dates that much, to be honest. But where is this reference to Superman in Chapter 2 of Year One? The only reference I remember is in Chapter 4, where Alfred asks Bruce if he's going to take up flying next "like that fellow in Metropolis". And judging by the context, it seems highly unlikely that Bruce has already met Superman by that point.

I dunno...I lean towards the idea of Batman meeting Superman being a late Year One/early Year Two thing. Batman sure doesn't seem like a rookie in MOS # 3, even if he's still in his 'vigilante' phase.

[PurpleGlovez]

Well...either they were massaging her back into the early years or some writers just forgot that she wasn't supposed to be there

Doubtful. It seems clear to me that editors were allowing these references to Diana in the early part of the timeline in anticipation of making it official with Infinite Crisis. Regardless, since she definitively was a founding JLAer post-IC, her presence in Wagner's Trinity cannot be used as a mark against that story's canonicity. That makes no sense.

Yeah, those 'Year X' labels are more indicative of a broad era than a hard calendar year.

That said, as much as I love TLH and DV, I kind of think of them as being in their own little bubble of continuity, much like most of LOTDK. 'Canon' if you want it to be, but other stories set in that era don't necessarily need to be beholden to them too much. And if I were to do a book called 'Year Four', I'd probably focus more on maintaining some semblance of continuity, however vague, with Years One, Two and Three...

The events of The Long Halloween and Dark Victory are canonized wholesale in Tony Daniel's Batman run, especially issue #692. The problem is, since the narrative is so intrinsically dependent on holidays and the specific passage of time, it's not at all obvious how to keep the events canon without also keeping their internal timeline canon. Interestingly, the 1993 Black Canary series establishes Dinah is 15 when she becomes Black Canary, which obviously takes place after Batman's debut (see for example Secret Origins #50). Yet she is 19 when the JLA forms. I'm not sure DC ever thought about this because it really messes up their idea in the 90s of the JLA being a "Year One" enterprise. But it fits perfectly with the idea that the JLA is post-Robin, as is the case in Wagner, and Brad Meltzer's JLofA run.

Haven't deep-dived into the dates that much, to be honest. But where is this reference to Superman in Chapter 2 of Year One? The only reference I remember is in Chapter 4, where Alfred asks Bruce if he's going to take up flying next "like that fellow in Metropolis". And judging by the context, it seems highly unlikely that Bruce has already met Superman by that point.

I dunno...I lean towards the idea of Batman meeting Superman being a late Year One/early Year Two thing. Batman sure doesn't seem like a rookie in MOS # 3, even if he's still in his 'vigilante' phase.

In Batman #405 on a scene dated April 9th, Barbara is giving Jim a backrub and says "don't have to go to Metropolis for a Man of Steel". So Superman has debuted by this point, meaning the absolute latest Man of Steel #3 could take place is December of Year One. But Batman still has a normal car in Man of Steel #3, meaning the debut of the Batmobile in Prey and Monster Men has not taken place yet, placing Man of Steel #3 in November at the latest. It would make sense that Superman flying to Gotham and trying to apprehend Batman takes place during the time that Batman is wanted by the police, which officially ends with Prey.

[bat39]

Doubtful. It seems clear to me that editors were allowing these references to Diana in the early part of the timeline in anticipation of making it official with Infinite Crisis. Regardless, since she definitively was a founding JLAer post-IC, her presence in Wagner's Trinity cannot be used as a mark against that story's canonicity. That makes no sense.

Well, its canonicity was doubtful at the time it was published at least.

Anyway, this is not a hill I'm ready to die on, at least as far as Diana is concerned. Its Ra's apperance relatively early in Batman's career that concerns me a lot more.

The events of The Long Halloween and Dark Victory are canonized wholesale in Tony Daniel's Batman run, especially issue #692. The problem is, since the narrative is so intrinsically dependent on holidays and the specific passage of time, it's not at all obvious how to keep the events canon without also keeping their internal timeline canon. Interestingly, the 1993 Black Canary series establishes Dinah is 15 when she becomes Black Canary, which obviously takes place after Batman's debut (see for example Secret Origins #50). Yet she is 19 when the JLA forms. I'm not sure DC ever thought about this because it really messes up their idea in the 90s of the JLA being a "Year One" enterprise. But it fits perfectly with the idea that the JLA is post-Robin, as is the case in Wagner, and Brad Meltzer's JLofA run.

Even Hush references TLH iirc. That said, given the multitude of Year One (as well as Year Two) stories, I think there was enough wiggle room for writers and fans alike to construct their own headcanons for how Batman's early years played out.

I think the notion that all the heroes had to debut in the same year, within weeks/months of each other, and that the JLA also started that year, is something that exists solely for the sake of timeline compression and nothing else. Realistically, it makes much more sense to me that a few years pass between the debuts of Batman and Superman, and the formation of the JLA.

In Batman #405 on a scene dated April 9th, Barbara is giving Jim a backrub and says "don't have to go to Metropolis for a Man of Steel". So Superman has debuted by this point, meaning the absolute latest Man of Steel #3 could take place is December of Year One. But Batman still has a normal car in Man of Steel #3, meaning the debut of the Batmobile in Prey and Monster Men has not taken place yet, placing Man of Steel #3 in November at the latest. It would make sense that Superman flying to Gotham and trying to apprehend Batman takes place during the time that Batman is wanted by the police, which officially ends with Prey.

Oh yeah...totally forgot about the backrub

Honestly, its been ages since I read Prey so I don't know about its placement chronologically in relation to Year One. I do have a hard time equating the Batman from MOS # 3 with the Year One Batman, but that's just me. I just don't see the Batman who was still busy taking on the Mob whipping up a force-field booby trap on the off-chance that he might encounter Superman.

I actually did a thread on Batman's appearance in MOS # 3 years ago - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...s-Man-of-Steel

[PurpleGlovez]

Man of Steel's Batman does feel anachronistic, especially with the capsule belt; but I think it's just the unavoidable consequence of trying to have the wider DCU interact with the world of Miller and O'Neil's Year One-era Batman. It's going to feel weird either way. As for Ra's al Ghul, I actually don't mind him debuting early if there's a good reason for it. We already know Talia and the League of Assassins are waiting in the shadows in Robin Year One. But then we have the internal logic of Morrison's run which puts Bruce's relationship with Kathy Kane before he meets Talia. So in my view it goes Dark Victory, Robin Year One, then Kathy's career as Batwoman, then Ra's al Ghul and Talia, then Trinity, then the JLA (then Teen Titans, then Barbara as Batgirl).

[Vakanai]

In my head year 4 is kind of the lead up to the JL, like JL would be year 5 so 4 is when they start to really know more about each other. The first few crossovers would happen in year 4 imo, both actual hero team ups and having to deal with members of another hero's rogues gallery. So while I only have a few stories in my head that I'd create for such a time (kind of like the idea of Batman investigating a smuggling ring at Gotham harbor only to come against Black Manta before ever meeting Aquaman for example) I think year 4 should be sort of the lead up to the JL era.
But that's just me.

[bat39]

Man of Steel's Batman does feel anachronistic, especially with the capsule belt; but I think it's just the unavoidable consequence of trying to have the wider DCU interact with the world of Miller and O'Neil's Year One-era Batman. It's going to feel weird either way. As for Ra's al Ghul, I actually don't mind him debuting early if there's a good reason for it. We already know Talia and the League of Assassins are waiting in the shadows in Robin Year One. But then we have the internal logic of Morrison's run which puts Bruce's relationship with Kathy Kane before he meets Talia. So in my view it goes Dark Victory, Robin Year One, then Kathy's career as Batwoman, then Ra's al Ghul and Talia, then Trinity, then the JLA (then Teen Titans, then Barbara as Batgirl).

Yeah, visually, MOS' Batman kinda resembles an updated version of the classic Golden Age/Silver Age Batman, though his personality is a lot closer to what the Post-Crisis Batman persona would become - which does make me wonder if Byrne read Miller's DKR and then worked backwards from that.

Your timeline isn't my preferred version, but I'm okay with it if I look at it in terms of the JLA debuting later rather than Ra's debuting earlier. Though it still feels wrong to me that stuff like Barbara becoming Batgirl happens later than Ra's debut...

In my head year 4 is kind of the lead up to the JL, like JL would be year 5 so 4 is when they start to really know more about each other. The first few crossovers would happen in year 4 imo, both actual hero team ups and having to deal with members of another hero's rogues gallery. So while I only have a few stories in my head that I'd create for such a time (kind of like the idea of Batman investigating a smuggling ring at Gotham harbor only to come against Black Manta before ever meeting Aquaman for example) I think year 4 should be sort of the lead up to the JL era.
But that's just me.

Yeah, I see it more or less the same way. I see Year Four as being essentially a modernized take on the late Golden Age/early Silver Age era of the 40's and 50's - with an established Batman and Robin becoming big-name heroes, and starting to interact regularly with Superman, and potentially other heroes too. Though again, I wouldn't focus too much on non-Gotham stuff in a potential Year Four series.

[JBatmanFan05]

The first thing you'd read in my Batman Year Four, right in my trade introduction to it (and in every interview), is how I wouldn't view it literally as Year Four, but instead the name is just keeping to the tradition of "Year [blank]" titles. I have a yearless continuity, so no Year One, Two, etc really for me...I intentionally choose not to box certain events into specific years like that. I prefer the vagueness and uncertainty and flexibility.

Do I suspect Long Halloween probably happens in a Batman's second year? Sure. Is it fun and easy to think of it that way, in some imagined Year Two? Sure. Am I certain of any of this, certain enough that that placement works or makes enough sense? No.
And Long Halloween is perhaps one of the easiest stories to consider the placement of (since it can kinda go anywhere mostly, Y1 to Y4), so I certainly won't tax mind about boxing in other stories of less obvious placement.

[Vakanai]

Yeah, visually, MOS' Batman kinda resembles an updated version of the classic Golden Age/Silver Age Batman, though his personality is a lot closer to what the Post-Crisis Batman persona would become - which does make me wonder if Byrne read Miller's DKR and then worked backwards from that.

Your timeline isn't my preferred version, but I'm okay with it if I look at it in terms of the JLA debuting later rather than Ra's debuting earlier. Though it still feels wrong to me that stuff like Barbara becoming Batgirl happens later than Ra's debut...



Yeah, I see it more or less the same way. I see Year Four as being essentially a modernized take on the late Golden Age/early Silver Age era of the 40's and 50's - with an established Batman and Robin becoming big-name heroes, and starting to interact regularly with Superman, and potentially other heroes too. Though again, I wouldn't focus too much on non-Gotham stuff in a potential Year Four series.

Kind of what I mean though with the Black Manta in Gotham harbor example, there's ways of keeping the action in Gotham for Batman while still sort of playing up the idea there's a world beyond Gotham full of heroes and villains that can still directly affect Batman and Gotham, and that the heroes need to learn to work together if for no other reason than to let each other know "hey, so-and-so is a major villain, and they operate in such-and-such way, so if you see these calling cards then this is who you're dealing with and this is what you need to know to deal with them." I don't know, it makes sense in my head I guess.

Maybe it works less as a Year Four and better as a Legends of the Dark Knight anthology of the first superhero team ups or first solo fights against other hero's rogues galleries. I'm kind of fascinated by the idea of tying the DC world more closely together earlier on. Another story idea I'm always thinking of is a Superman and LoSH idea where teenaged Clark is brought to the future to help LoSH fight the time traveling Flash villain the Reverse Flash/Thawne from freeing future Brainiac from the Phantom Zone in exchange for the city shrinking technology Brainiac has so Thawne can use it to shrink Central City in the past. I would so love to write that story. Anyways I just love ideas like that showing up in earlier stories and sort of cementing the idea that they need to make the JL moreso than just having it all be from some random major event I guess. I'd just love to make sort of early year books for the DC universe.

I definitely feel if nothing else Year Four should probably kind of show the build up of the World's Finest Batman/Superman relationship from Batman's viewpoint. We have Batgirl YO and Robin YO, but a World's Finest YO would be cool. Kind of make it in two pieces, Batman Year Four would be one side of the story, and there'd be a Superman Year Five for the other half (assuming Supes' still starts like a year earlier). I think that'd be pretty cool.

[bat39]

So I decided, instead of just speculating about it, to kinda put together my thoughts on my dream 'Batman Year Four' mini. It'll be far from perfect of course since I'm not a comic-book professional (just a fan!), but here goes anyway.

I've envisioned it as a four issue mini, with each issue being super-sized.

Chapter 1: The Brave and the Bold - We begin with a three-panel page, each panel wordlessly featuring an image depicting Year One, Year Two and Year Three respectively (Batman breaking into the mayor's house, Batman fighting the Reaper, Batman bringing Dick into the Batcave) before jumping into Year Four. It's been a year since Batman and Robin became a team and they've become the toast of Gotham. Organized crime has virtually been decimated, though the menace of costumed villains has grown. Jim Gordon becomes Commissioner of the GCPD (its mentioned briefly that he was once acting Commissioner 'a couple of years ago'), and he informally 'deputizes' the Dynamic Duo as his first act. There's a lot of media commentary around Batman and Robin, with a new Gotham Gazette journalist Vicky Vale eagerly participating in the debates, and determined to investigate Batman and reveal his mysteries in true Lois Lane style. She also goes on a date with Bruce Wayne. Soon, the Dynamic Duo have to deal with a team-up of the Riddler and the Penguin, which they do with their usual pizazz (BIFF! BAM! ZAP!) and rescue some kids who were taken hostage. One of the kids freaks out a little looking at Batman. This, coupled with a lot of the media commentary and a conversation with Vicky where she wonders if Batman is still a ruthless shadowy vigilante or a hero and inspiration to the people, leads Bruce to declare that "I set out to scare criminals, not children", and he retires the black-and-grey 'Year One' suit in favor of the classic Golden Age/early Silver Age blue-and-grey suit with the capsule belt. In the meantime, we see a mysterious figure has been following Batman around and taking photos and videos of him...its implied it might be Vickly, or it might not...

Chapter 2: World's Finest - A few months later, Bruce is seen meeting Kathy Kane at a party at Wayne Manor, socialite and technically his 'aunt' (by marriage) and he's quite taken with her (a young Kate Kane, and Bette Kane are also seen in the background, with Dick briefly interacting with them). However, Batman and Robin soon have to deal with the escape of the Joker, who has undergone a significant personality change, with the authorities, and the heroes, wondering if he's become more clown than killer, and questioning whether he's more or less harmful now. They soon learn the Joker's plan when Superman comes to town, revealing that the Joker has joined forces with Lex Luthor (in his peak business mogul phase) to eliminate both their enemies. What follows is the first 'World's Finest' team up of Batman & Batman, and Superman. Batman and Superman for the first time genuienly enjoy working with each other and their friendship starts to develop, with Superman marveling at how much Batman has changed with Robin's influence. And Robin gets to know Superman too and is inspired by him. After the mission is done and the Joker is safely behind bars (while Luthor gets away), Superman tells Batman how he's met some other superheroes and that they aren't the only ones now, and that maybe someday soon they'll all get together. We also learn that the person spying on Batman from last issue was Kathy Kane, who's decided to put the next phase of her plan to get close to Batman in action...

Chapter 3: Dynamic Duos - Several months later, Vicky Vale is getting dangerously close to uncovering Batman's true identity, and is starting to suspect that Bruce is Batman. However, it is her relentless investigations into the criminal activities of former DA Harvey Dent AKA Two-Face that puts a target on her back. As Two Face's goons attempt to abduct Vicky, she is rescued not by Batman and Robin but by...the Knight and Squire, the English crime-fighters inspired by Batman and Robin who are visiting Gotham in the hopes of meeting their inspirations. Batman and Robin soon team up with the Knight and Squire to thwart Two Face's attempt to takeover the remnants of the old Gotham Mob. Knight and Squire also help thwart Vicky's attempt to expose Bruce and Dick as Batman and Robin by briefly impersonating the latter!

Chapter 4: The Female of the Species - Kathy Kane has finally put together her costume and made her debut as Batwoman, spectacularly thwarting by assassination attempt on Bruce Wayne by a new assassin, Deadshot. Batman and Robin must hunt down Deadshot as he works his way through a kill-list, while discovering who Batwoman is. However, Bruce is not at the top of his game, as he's still recovering from hallucinations he suffered after a recent exposure to Scarecrow's fear gas, where he envisioned himself as the 'Batman of Zurr-en-arhh', and is still haunted by that vision. Batman, Robin and Batwoman must ultimately work together to capture Deadshot and expose his employers, with Batman acknowledging at the end that his crusade is not his alone anymore, as others too will be inspired by his example in the years ahead - followed by a quick flashforward to future iterations of the Bat-family.