How would you bring back the New 52?

[Agent Z]

PAD with those changes, gave in to detractors.

As did Johns. What do you think he was doing by having all those characters make fun of Aquaman in-universe?

[Agent Z]

Years ago I had a discussion with some people about Aquaman, they belonged to those comic readers who considered Aquaman as lame. Despite I stood my ground, I could not fail to see their viewpoint and honestly they did had some valid ones. Now put yourself in their place, you have this character that since Superfriends had become a joke. To add to his misery, even the most famous Aquaman story of all time in comics did not help, Death of a Prince. In which he loses a son and later even his wife leaves him. He looked like a loser. Successive writers stuck with that plot line of Arthur having lost his wife and son, sad and melancholic. Instead of coming up with something different, bringing back the boy etc no they seemed sadistically happy to make him look a loser.

Batman has lost three Robins and numerous other supporting cast members. No one sees him as a loser.

If people are so lacking in empathy they see Arthur as pathetic because his son died, that says a lot more about them than him.

When PAD came along he found all this mess, he decided that he needed to make some changes, but the changes done in good faith, was an admission that he was lame.

Well, yeah. At least an admission that he was seen that way. Which just about every Aquaman writer has done when they try challenge the "Aquaman is a stupid hero" allegations.

The hook hand that some see as a sign of badassery, others saw it as a sign of being a loser, he lost his son, his wife and now his hand!
His Aquaman is a middle aged arrogant and dour man, who was having an affair with it girl old enough to be his daughter. Sons of his sprang out from nowhere. Even His parentage and name changed. It was Aquaman only in name it wasn't Arthur Curry anyone. Still despite all those changes the bad reputation stuck. The changes that took place after PAD continued to inflict damage to a character that was by now beyond repair.

The PAD run is definitely a product of its time. That said, it was absolutely was a successful one and kept the character from

Despite we could argue that it was not all true, the perception was there and the changes did not help.

It may not have entirely erased Aquaman's bad reputation over night but it did a lot to challenge it and brought in a lot of new Aquaman fans.

New52 with all its faults gave the chance to cancel all that came between Silverage Aquaman up to 2011. Was it right to cancel all that, probably not or at least not everything, but Aquaman had no other alternative. It needed to go back to a more traditional Aquaman although updated to modern times, you can't expect in 2011 to have Mera doing needlework as she did in the sixties. Different times and epochs.
It was the only solution available, nothing else would have worked. Keep always in mind that if Johns did not champion Aquaman, it was very likely that we would have no Aquaman today.

David had already proved that Aquaman was a viable character for modern audiences. If Johns hadn't championed him, someone else would have.

Whatever damage Aquaman suffered after PAD was not caused by him. It was caused by DC's stupid decisions like the introduction of another Aquaman named Arthur Joseph Curry.

PAD with those changes, gave in to detractors.

As did Johns. What do you think he was doing by having all those characters make fun of Aquaman in-universe?

[Stanlos]

As did Johns. What do you think he was doing by having all those characters make fun of Aquaman in-universe?

I think that was the most jarring and incensing thing for me. By that point, Aquaman's legend loomed LARGE over the DCU and nobody in-universe would be on that page. But then I remember, they created new verse AND MADE THE JOKE STATUS the starting point. I still seethe when I think aboush. Like, WHY?

[HsssH]

We got Arthur Joseph Curry because Aquaman sales were real bad.

[Goldrake]

I think that was the most jarring and incensing thing for me. By that point, Aquaman's legend loomed LARGE over the DCU and nobody in-universe would be on that page. But then I remember, they created new verse AND MADE THE JOKE STATUS the starting point. I still seethe when I think aboush. Like, WHY?

Aquaman was such in bad state that DC replaced him in sword of Atlantis do we get this? when that also failed, he was considered, a hopeless case. The Joke status at starting point silenced detractors at the very start, you tackle the problem by taking the bull by its horns. It was needed. That run was successful for some reason, if we continue to deny that and remain stuck to a version that kept being a failure after failure, we get to nowhere. N52 SILENCED all Aquaman critics, except the nostalgic fanboys of a version that had nothing of who Arthur Curry should be, he did not even have his proper name.

[Agent Z]

Aquaman was such in bad state that DC replaced him in sword of Atlantis do we get this? when that also failed, he was considered, a hopeless case. The Joke status at starting point silenced detractors at the very start, you tackle the problem by taking the bull by its horns. It was needed. That run was successful for some reason, if we continue to deny that and remain stuck to a version that kept being a failure after failure, we get to nowhere. N52 SILENCED all Aquaman critics, except the nostalgic fanboys of a version that had nothing of who Arthur Curry should be, he did not even have his proper name.

No one is denying that the New 52 was a success. That doesn't mean the Peter David run was a failure either and you falsely stating that it was over and over again isn't going to make it true.

Johns did not silence the Aquaman critics. You know how I know? Because the same stupid jokes about Aquaman persisted all the way up to when the first movie was released. Every time some new version of Aquaman comes along, everyone acts like this one will finally shut the critics up and the Aquaman jokes never go away. David's run was just as needed in the 90s as Johns's was in the 2010s. You don't have to pretend one was a failure to like the other.

[Goldrake]

Batman has lost three Robins and numerous other supporting cast members. No one sees him as a loser.

If people are so lacking in empathy they see Arthur as pathetic because his son died, that says a lot more about them than him.


Well, yeah. At least an admission that he was seen that way. Which just about every Aquaman writer has done when they try challenge the "Aquaman is a stupid hero" allegations.


The PAD run is definitely a product of its time. That said, it was absolutely was a successful one and kept the character from



It may not have entirely erased Aquaman's bad reputation over night but it did a lot to challenge it and brought in a lot of new Aquaman fans.



David had already proved that Aquaman was a viable character for modern audiences. If Johns hadn't championed him, someone else would have.

Whatever damage Aquaman suffered after PAD was not caused by him. It was caused by DC's stupid decisions like the introduction of another Aquaman named Arthur Joseph Curry.



As did Johns. What do you think he was doing by having all those characters make fun of Aquaman in-universe?

He wasn't seen a loser because he lost a son, but because writers kept repeating ad nauseam the narrative that he lost his wife and kid, the sad hero who even his people rejected him. Do you believe that Black Manta making fun of him "How is the kid and wife" helped ?
The Mclaughlin run opens with the summary he lost everything wife, son, kingdom, people and that he is Alone. Instead of trying to move on from the death of Aquababy they kept going back to that. That is why readers saw him as a loser. Even Johns in blackest night touched the issue, with exception he did not let it define what they had in mind.

David sales contrary to the impression some might have, weren't anything special, mediocre by the standards of the era, at it's very best it never even made it to the top 50 selling books and it had the benefit of a cheaper price than the rest of comic books. The bar DC set for the book was low that's why they kept it around. The writers that came after PAD soon started to undo most of what he introduced, he was again Arthur not Orin, even the hook hand was gone. With sales not that different from PAD. Had his Aquaman been so successful as you claim, they would have continued with his approach, you don't fix something that wasn't broken. You can say that writers often do that, in Aquaman's case it was because of editorial decisions, the first thing they demanded was to bring Mera back permanently.
Anyhow DC arrived to a point that DC decided to have Arthur Joseph Curry in a desperate attempt to salvage Aquaman in comics. Again if PAD's Aquaman was so viable and "successful" why DC was forced to replace Arthur? It could have turned back to his Aquaman, they didn't.

That someone would have championed Aquaman instead of Johns, we will never know, one thing is certain that People at DC told him and Ivan Reis it was a waste of time and energy.
He had to fight for the book and got it because he was Johns, mainly due to his standing at the time in DC.

Before sword of Atlantis, they offered the book to some of the best writers around most of them turned it down, others with reluctance tried to do something but gave up. If not mistaken Busiek in this forum wrote he did not ask for Aquaman but he let them convince him, which turned out not to be the best choice he made. After that at DC they gave up, honestly it had some logic as nothing seem to work.

Then came New52, you can deny it but facts say it was the most successful Aquaman run ever.

[ducklord]

Honestly? I think its mostly just the New 52 Superman - specifically Morrison's run with the T-shirt and jeans, Golden Age-inspired 'social crusader' Superman.

I liked that, too. But I bet if you squint it's probably still there in some form or another ("that month or two early in my career when I didn't wear a cape").

I can think of a few New 52 things that probably got wiped out of the timeline:
- Skinny Waller.
- Vic Sage(!) running the Suicide Squad.
- Vic Sage as a faceless cursed immortal (seriously, what the heck)
- The New 52's first Justice League story being the origin of the group, rather than the first time that particular line-up got together.
- Amazons cast as serial man-rapers/murderers.
- The Superman/Wonder Woman romance as a modern day thing (although I wouldn't be surprised if some vestige of it lingers in the past).
- Bar-Tor and that weird Superboy variant from Teen Titans.
- Donna Troy's freaky New 52 origin.
- Twilight Sparkle Lobo is technically in a Brainiac bottle somewhere, but I bet he'll never show up again.

Anything else?

Anyone clamoring for the return of these?

[ducklord]

With regards to Aquaman, and apologies for not keeping up, but what parts of Aquaman's lore from the New 52 have been jettisoned? From a distance, it kind of looks like Aquaman's one of the characters whose new 52 storylines have mostly stayed intact during DC's shift to a mostly-post-Crisis footing. But I could be wrong.

Of course, marriage to Mera aside (an admittedly big aside) , Aquaman's New 52 stories always did seem like more of a continuation than a reboot.

[Factor]

I liked that, too. But I bet if you squint it's probably still there in some form or another ("that month or two early in my career when I didn't wear a cape").

I can think of a few New 52 things that probably got wiped out of the timeline:
- Skinny Waller.
- Vic Sage(!) running the Suicide Squad.
- Vic Sage as a faceless cursed immortal (seriously, what the heck)
- The New 52's first Justice League story being the origin of the group, rather than the first time that particular line-up got together.
- Amazons cast as serial man-rapers/murderers.
- The Superman/Wonder Woman romance as a modern day thing (although I wouldn't be surprised if some vestige of it lingers in the past).
- Bar-Tor and that weird Superboy variant from Teen Titans.
- Donna Troy's freaky New 52 origin.
- Twilight Sparkle Lobo is technically in a Brainiac bottle somewhere, but I bet he'll never show up again.

Anything else?

Anyone clamoring for the return of these?

Jeez, these were some bad decisions. I will never understand skinny Amanda Waller. So dumb.
As others have said before, there were very few good changes that couldn’t have happened even without a pseudo-reboot.
Morrison’s Action Comics is one of the exceptions.
Even Chiang’s redesigns of the Greek gods could be explained as them assuming new forms. No need for all the changes to the Amazons.

[ducklord]

Jeez, these were some bad decisions. I will never understand skinny Amanda Waller. So dumb.

Of course, compared to her current, moustache-twirling "my sole motivation is the murder of all super-heroes everywhere" characterization, I'd take Skinny Waller in a New York minute. But that's a whole different thread altogether.

[HsssH]

With regards to Aquaman, and apologies for not keeping up, but what parts of Aquaman's lore from the New 52 have been jettisoned? From a distance, it kind of looks like Aquaman's one of the characters whose new 52 storylines have mostly stayed intact during DC's shift to a mostly-post-Crisis footing. But I could be wrong.

Of course, marriage to Mera aside (an admittedly big aside) , Aquaman's New 52 stories always did seem like more of a continuation than a reboot.

New 52 Aquaman was full reboot. Rebirth didn't change continuity for Aquaman, but direction and theme changed somewhat and eventually entire thing collapsed.

[Stanlos]

Aquaman was such in bad state that DC replaced him in sword of Atlantis do we get this? when that also failed, he was considered, a hopeless case. The Joke status at starting point silenced detractors at the very start, you tackle the problem by taking the bull by its horns. It was needed. That run was successful for some reason, if we continue to deny that and remain stuck to a version that kept being a failure after failure, we get to nowhere. N52 SILENCED all Aquaman critics, except the nostalgic fanboys of a version that had nothing of who Arthur Curry should be, he did not even have his proper name.

You gotta be careful tossing around phrases like Should Be. Especially when the position you are trying to sell flies completely outside what the character's documented design and the intent behind the design were. A million fans can each have a million distinct opinions so none of them can determine what Should Be.

[skyvolt2000]

You don't Johns run without a Peter David run. That is WHO proved Aquaman could sell and hold a run.
Same with the run that followed him. Don't know why there has to be shade tossed at the previous runs to prop up Johns.

And for the "praise" where was Aqualad mainly the Jackson version at? Why did it take the end of New 52 for him to show up?

The Joke status at starting point silenced detractors at the very start, you tackle the problem by taking the bull by its horns. It was needed.

So what was their excuse for ALL the other folks ruined by New 52 like Static? Jaime Reyes? Wally West?

Why was the most successful Batgirl at the time-Cassandra Cain erased?

If we are going to toss out sales or this is how folks SHOULD be-Explain those 3 along with Donna, John Stewart, Cyborg, Tim Drake, Bart, Superboy, Supergirl, Firestorm and everyone else who had better showings and sales?


And more important-folks are going to think of Aquaman as joke no matter how many books he sells or how much money his movie makes. Those folks are NOT going away.

[Stanlos]

But why are they in these people's minds?? That is the part that puzzles me.