DC to Debut 'Joker Level' Villain in New Wonder Woman Series

[Mel Dyer]

I guess the closest would be Rucka's Rebirth run but he spent so much time trying to make her more tragic and friendly towards Diana it harmed her ultimate standing as a villain.

Vordan, that's brilliant. Brilliant! Wonder Woman doesn't have this sort of enmity (in spite of Phil's best efforts to create it), and I'm tired of hearing that WW doesn't need it. Why shouldn't our favorite superheroine have a classic archenemy, like everyone else's?

[SiegePerilous02]

Vordan, that's brilliant. Brilliant! Wonder Woman doesn't have this sort of enmity (in spite of Phil's best efforts to create it), and I'm tired of hearing that WW doesn't need it. Why shouldn't our favorite superheroine have a classic archenemy, like everyone else's?

Because Wonder Woman is best when she goes against the grain for typical superhero conventions. Just because everyone else has it (debatable), doesn't necessarily mean she has to.

And classically, Superman doesn't have that enmity towards Lex, but he has it towards Brainiac. But nobody would say Brainiac is the arch over Lex

[Mel Dyer]

My controversial opinion is Cheetah has the archnemesis spot mostly because of inertia. Everyone treats her like the arch because she has been around since the Golden Age and she has been adapted so many times. If you asked people why she’s the archnemesis however, most couldn’t tell you. There’s nothing on the level of Killing Joke or Azz Luthor that really deep dives into Diana and Cheetah and justifies why Cheetah holds that spot.

Of course I’m hardly unbiased since I think it should be Circe . Either way we need a big WW story that is primarily focused on her relationship with a villain...(Joker was mostly bad but this was a great moment all the same). But we need something that really cuts to the core of what Diana’s relationship with her villains is, preferably one on one where it’s just Diana and someone else.

Vordan, that's brilliant. Brilliant! Wonder Woman doesn't have this sort of enmity (in spite of Phil Jimenez's best efforts to create it), and I'm tired of hearing that WW doesn't need it. Of course, she does.

"...I think her worst enemy, her arch-nemesis, should be special.

Not just another bloody bank-robber...y'know?

Wonder Woman's archenemy should be a specific threat to what is most important to Wonder Woman, on some personal or cosmic level, ..and not just a bad lady. The arch should be doing something that puts her squarely in the path of the hero's mission. These two have to come to blows. Theirs is a fight that must happen. There must be a universal understanding, among fans or the audience, that their enmity is inevitable, and that the consequences will be far-reaching and ultimately will change a status quo. It should be understood by all that they were born for this singular conflict, such that it takes on an almost meta-mythical importance, in the world. The archenemy is the villain, our hero was born to battle and destroy...

Or be destroyed by..." Mel Dyer, "The Enmity Mystique: Mulling Over Wonder Woman's Classic Nemesislessness" [Wondabunga]

Why shouldn't our favorite superheroine have a classic archenemy, like everyone else's?

...King won't use her as a nemesis, but has expressed interest in exploring their dynamic. Odds are good she will be showing up. And the cyclical nature of comics indicates she will be re-villified again sooner or later.

I don't see what the mass market appeal of Harley has to do with anything. She's more popular than Diana herself, so I don't see how that helps Diana.

There is no "dynamic", as I see it. The villain has to have an ambition, which threatens what is most important to the hero, ..or it must be the other way around - always! That's not and never has been there between WW and the Cheetah, ..but King is welcome to create one, where none previously existed.

And re-vilify the Cheetah? A new Cheetah, with a CLEAR motivation, a new backstory? Great. I hope we'll see this, one day. I will applaud the effort, by Tom King or any other good fiction writer.

I don't think we can be fair to Tom King and what he's trying to accomplish on WW. For Wonder Woman's rogues, ..the volume of WORK - long-range vision, universally appreciated cycle of stories, other development - that's made the nemeses of other superheroes, something we call 'classic', simply isn't there. It's not there, because editor Robert Kanigher didn't put it there, and it's too late to do anything about it. The wasted Silver Age Fifties set this comic so far behind similar comics, that we can't hold up WW's supporting cast, superhero family or rogues gallery to be compared with the others. The best we can hope to do is let a Tom King or Conrad/Cloonan try to create something functional, entertaining and (hopefully) inspiring to stand-in for what might have been...

[Mel Dyer]

My controversial opinion is Cheetah has the archnemesis spot mostly because of inertia. Everyone treats her like the arch because she has been around since the Golden Age and she has been adapted so many times. If you asked people why she’s the archnemesis however, most couldn’t tell you. There’s nothing on the level of Killing Joke or Azz Luthor that really deep dives into Diana and Cheetah and justifies why Cheetah holds that spot.

Of course I’m hardly unbiased since I think it should be Circe . Either way we need a big WW story that is primarily focused on her relationship with a villain...(Joker was mostly bad but this was a great moment all the same). But we need something that really cuts to the core of what Diana’s relationship with her villains is, preferably one on one where it’s just Diana and someone else.

Vordan, that's brilliant. Brilliant! Wonder Woman doesn't have this sort of enmity (in spite of Phil Jimenez's best efforts to create it), and I'm tired of hearing that WW doesn't need it. Of course, she does.

"...I think her worst enemy, her arch-nemesis, should be special.

Not just another bloody bank-robber...y'know?

Wonder Woman's archenemy should be a specific threat to what is most important to Wonder Woman, on some personal or cosmic level, ..and not just a bad lady. The arch should be doing something that puts her squarely in the path of the hero's mission. These two have to come to blows. Theirs is a fight that must happen. There must be a universal understanding, among fans or the audience, that their enmity is inevitable, and that the consequences will be far-reaching and ultimately will change a status quo. It should be understood by all that they were born for this singular conflict, such that it takes on an almost meta-mythical importance, in the world. The archenemy is the villain, our hero was born to battle and destroy...

Or be destroyed by..." Mel Dyer, "The Enmity Mystique: Mulling Over Wonder Woman's Classic Nemesislessness" [Wondabunga]

Why shouldn't our favorite superheroine have a classic archenemy, like everyone else's?

...King won't use her as a nemesis, but has expressed interest in exploring their dynamic. Odds are good she will be showing up. And the cyclical nature of comics indicates she will be re-villified again sooner or later.

I don't see what the mass market appeal of Harley has to do with anything. She's more popular than Diana herself, so I don't see how that helps Diana.

There is no "dynamic", as I see it. The villain has to have an ambition, which threatens what is most important to the hero, ..or it must be the other way around - always! That's not and never has been there between WW and the Cheetah, ..but King is welcome to create one, where none previously existed.

And re-vilify the Cheetah? A new Cheetah, with a CLEAR motivation, a new backstory? Great. I hope we'll see this, one day. I will applaud the effort, by Tom King or any other good fiction writer.

I mentioned Harley, Janus, Hera and the others to illustrate that giving Cheetah another shot at the Wonder-villain spotlight, so soon after WW84, ..doesn't seem to be a priority for DC Comics, presently. Even in her new capacity as history expert/Wonder-friend, Cheetah is nowhere near the center of things in WW.

[Frontier]

I feel like people look to Circe as the arch because she's also from mythology and a spellcasting witch is a cool idea when pitted against Diana as a warrior.

But that's pretty much as far as it goes, because it's not like she's ever had a consistent motivation to hate Diana. Some of the motivations, like the one she had in the Perez era, were pretty bad in a way only comic books can be.

Circe's fun, is really powerful, and at least has a few events she's tied to (War of the Gods, Witching Hour, I guess Amazons Attack loathe as I am to mention it).

People seem to forget that Lex used to be a tragic character who had some redeeming qualities and Superman struggled to reform him. Diana and Barbara Ann are basically riffing on that classic dynamic. If it doesn't disqualify Lex, no reason it shouldn't disqualify Cheetah. .

I think because even with the more tragic interpretations they still kind of double down on how bad a person Lex is.

[Psy-lock]

Does WW really need a definitive arch-enemy? If you really think about it, her true arch-enemy are the oppressive systems of the world, not individuals. She's not Batman and she doesn't need to have the same dynamics with her villains.

[Vordan]

Does WW really need a definitive arch-enemy? If you really think about it, her true arch-enemy are the oppressive systems of the world, not individuals. She's not Batman and she doesn't need to have the same dynamics with her villains.

You can have villains stand in for those systems and she already does. But yes part of being an A-Lister is having a solid Rogues Gallery. There’s no benefit to not having an archnemesis.

[Psy-lock]

You can have villains stand in for those systems and she already does. But yes part of being an A-Lister is having a solid Rogues Gallery. There’s no benefit to not having an archnemesis.

No, but there's no real benefit in having one either. It just comes down to "others have it, so should she" just like with many other shared universe things.

[wonder39]

I don’t get the issue with using Amazonian that way. Wouldn’t be any difference from me saying I’m a Brazilian. It’s just an indication of origin/nationality in the context it was used.

But she's not from "Amazon" . She'd be Themyscirian. Or an Amazon. She's not " an Amazonian"
There's Amazonian architecture, or Amazonian politics. Amazonian pottery. Etc. But the people are Amazons

[wonder39]

I guess it's because Amazonas's country would be Themiscyra. So, Amazonian as demonym would be wrong.

That said, USA people are called Americans. So, Amazonian could be the way to call Themiscyra people.

Well, but Americans are of the Americas ( North, or United States of) so that makes sense. "Amazonians" is just incorrect and lazy on the part of the writer. The proper term is Amazons ❤️

[HestiasHearth]

But she's not from "Amazon" . She'd be Themyscirian. Or an Amazon. She's not " an Amazonian"
There's Amazonian architecture, or Amazonian politics. Amazonian pottery. Etc. But the people are Amazons

Exactly.
I have a feeling that somebody at DC decided that "amazon" would remind too many people of the big ole internet retailer...so they opted to use "amazonian" instead.

[Mel Dyer]

I am not sure we can be fair to Tom King and what he's trying to accomplish on giving Wonder Woman, a Joker-class archenemy.

For Wonder Woman's rogues, ..the volume of WORK - long-range vision, universally appreciated cycle of stories, other development - that's made the arch-nemeses of other superheroes, something we call 'classic', ..simply isn't there. It's not there, because editor Robert Kanigher didn't put it there, and it's too late to do anything about the vacuum his inaction created. The wasted Silver Age Fifties set this comic so far behind similar comics, that we can't hold up WW's supporting cast, superhero family or rogues gallery to be compared with the others. Conceptually, ALL of WW's more popular rogues - Mars, the Baroness, Doctor Cyber, Cheetah, Giganta, Circe - have stellar potential, ..but the cycle of stories, comparable to "For the Man Who Has Everything", "The Killing Joke", Dark Phoenix Saga and 'The Dark Knight Returns', which might show them at their best, doesn't exist.

Maybe...the best we can hope to do is let a Tom King or Conrad/Cloonan try to create something functional, entertaining and (hopefully) inspiring to stand-in for what might have been. At the center of that...a classic conflict! Who will it be, glaring at Diana, amidst the flames and smoking ruins, ..at the end of everything? Maybe, Tom King will answer that.

I think some of what makes it hard for us to not rally for re-habbing old Wonder-rogues is pride. We've been reading and championing this comic for a long time - some of us [Me!], decades - and we want some writer or creator to hop on this comic and make it feel like our faith and PATIENCE have been well-placed. Some of us [Me!] have been waiting for the definitive WW story, complete with Wonder-villains making a good showing, since Lynda Carter was in stars and stripes...since the bloody SUPER FRIENDS - we're invested here! Bringing in brand new characters, mythos and villains makes some of us [Not me.] feel the Wonder-greatness we've been waiting for, for so long, is being discarded or dismissed as garbage - that it was all for nothing...

And we're like..."I think Villain X could be X, Y and Z, if some genius writer could see what I see, ..and I see potential! Hey! Wait a minute!"

Tom King's press is being very careful to not '52 us, with a whole new tonal orientation, revised history and characters, we no longer recognize. Maybe, this new archvillain and his enmity with Diana, will serve as a focal point, ..setting a dynamic tone for the revitalization of everything we've been waiting so long for. While I'd be more than happy to see WW's rogues gallery cut down to the TEN BEST, I'm fine with King plugging in a new alpha-rogue. That's my hope, anyway.

And if the next writer lets Giganta eat him and absorb his knowledge and power, giving her death ray eye-beams and properly making WW's archenemy, female,...I'm there! I can dig that.

Exactly.

I have a feeling that somebody at DC decided that "amazon" would remind too many people of the big ole internet retailer...so they opted to use "amazonian" instead.

I'm getting tired of the 'Amazonian' thing, too.

[wonder39]

Exactly.
I have a feeling that somebody at DC decided that "amazon" would remind too many people of the big ole internet retailer...so they opted to use "amazonian" instead.

Lol.... Sadly, it's just people being ill informed as to the correct vernacular

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Eh, at this point one just has to roll their eyes and humor writers when they want to make a brand new arch nemesis. Yes, we all know that it is a doomed effort and will go the way of so many villains created to fill that very specific niche, but its something that nearly every writer with big eyes and bigger dreams pins their hopes on, wanting to be THE ONE to pull it off.

Regarding Cheetah she does indeed function well as A nemesis for Wonder Woman. But it needs to be pointed out that the whole point of a nemesis is that they inform the hero in some vital way and she does. I look to Alex Ross's "Justice" where when facing against the Cheetah whose put Diana in a position where she is dying, Diana still sees Cheetah as a victim and wants to help her. Batman might want justice and Superman might want to protect, but Wonder Woman is defined by wanting to help.

All that said, no matter how hard any writer tries, their never really going to succeed in replacing Ares in the top spot. I know it rubs some people the wrong way, but when you have a baddie that is the anthropomorphic personification of war and destruction, your not really going to find a better thematic foe for someone who heralds peace. Just....Put more effort into his champions, have him aid other villains from the shadows and you've got gold right there.

[Mel Dyer]

Eh, at this point one just has to roll their eyes and humor writers when they want to make a brand new arch nemesis. Yes, we all know that it is a doomed effort and will go the way of so many villains created to fill that very specific niche, but its something that nearly every writer with big eyes and bigger dreams pins their hopes on, wanting to be THE ONE to pull it off.

Regarding Cheetah she does indeed function well as A nemesis for Wonder Woman. But it needs to be pointed out that the whole point of a nemesis is that they inform the hero in some vital way and she does. I look to Alex Ross's "Justice" where when facing against the Cheetah whose put Diana in a position where she is dying, Diana still sees Cheetah as a victim and wants to help her. Batman might want justice and Superman might want to protect, but Wonder Woman is defined by wanting to help.

All that said, no matter how hard any writer tries, their never really going to succeed in replacing Ares in the top spot. I know it rubs some people the wrong way, but when you have a baddie that is the anthropomorphic personification of war and destruction, your not really going to find a better thematic foe for someone who heralds peace. Just....Put more effort into his champions, have him aid other villains from the shadows and you've got gold right there.

Is there some reason Ares or Mars can't mock WW, by inhabiting the body of a mortal woman, ..like Veronica Cale or whoever?

I'm so over Cheetah and tired of waiting for the definitive Cheetah story that rivals DKR or the DPS. Like MOST Wonder-villains, including Diet Vader (Ares), Cheetah doesn't exist outside of our speculative exchanges in forums, like this one. WW didn't leave Paradise for Man's World just to keep from getting scratched up, and, if we're being REALLY honest, ..we have to consider that WW can do better than Cheetah, for an arch-anything.