DC to Debut 'Joker Level' Villain in New Wonder Woman Series

[WonderLight789]

Is there some reason Ares or Mars can't mock WW, by inhabiting the body of a mortal woman, ..like Veronica Cale or whoever?

I'm so over Cheetah and tired of waiting for the definitive Cheetah story that rivals DKR or the DPS. Like MOST Wonder-villains, including Diet Vader (Ares), Cheetah doesn't exist outside of our speculative exchanges in forums, like this one. WW didn't leave Paradise for Man's World just to keep from getting scratched up, and, if we're being REALLY honest, ..we have to consider that WW can do better than Cheetah, for an arch-anything.

That's all due to bad writing and treatment from editors. WW can do better than WW. Or are we forgetting that her presence and role in most stories outside her title don't matter 90% of the time?

[SiegePerilous02]

That's all due to bad writing and treatment from editors. WW can do better than WW. Or are we forgetting that her presence and role in most stories outside her title don't matter 90% of the time?

Yeah, people seem quick to forget that Wonder Woman herself is pretty bad in most stories where Cheetah is also bad. Even in the WW book.

Whereas in most of the few good WW runs (Marston, Perez, Jimenez, Rucka's Rebirth), Cheetah is at her best. Hell, Cheetah comes across as cooler in the Wilson run as opposed to ineffectual navel gazing Diana.

[Sebastianne]

Yeah, people seem quick to forget that Wonder Woman herself is pretty bad in most stories where Cheetah is also bad. Even in the WW book.

Whereas in most of the few good WW runs (Marston, Perez, Jimenez, Rucka's Rebirth), Cheetah is at her best. Hell, Cheetah comes across as cooler in the Wilson run as opposed to ineffectual navel gazing Diana.

I hate that Cheetah story, the one about the Year of the Villain, I got really fed up and didn't want to know anything more about the character.
That being said, I don't like Rebirth's Cheetah, I think it's the worst thing Rucka ever did. My Barbara Minerva is the ruthless woman created by Perez.

[Riv86672]

Gonna have to take a wait and see approach, but as others have mentioned, this has been done before. Also like others have mentioned, Diana already has foes that can fit this role if they were to just be given some development.

^^^I feel a lot of writers genuinely care for and want to do right by WW. It’s a shame that doesn’t extend to her rogues gallery because, it’s a symbiotic relationship.

Also, if you’re going to create a character to be someone’s something, don’t put it out there for everyone to see.

As this thread proves, pre judgement is a bitch. If you do your job well, the fans will figure it out, and they’ll be the ones to apply the moniker. And if your character doesn’t strike the chord you were hoping for well, then at least he or she wont have the added stigma of being a failed attempt at mimicking a popular concept.

[Frontier]

No, but there's no real benefit in having one either. It just comes down to "others have it, so should she" just like with many other shared universe things.

I don't think it's that so much as it's just a natural franchise byproduct.

Back in the day Archenemies weren't created specifically to be that, they just developed into it.

[OBrianTallent]

I don't think it's that so much as it's just a natural franchise byproduct.

Back in the day Archenemies weren't created specifically to be that, they just developed into it.

This is what modern editors and writers seem to miss. An archnemesis can not just be created. They are curated over time. King can create a new villain, he can create some great big bad that threatens Diana's ideology and world, but will this character be an archnemesis? Only if they are picked up and used again and again over time. Wasn't Azzerello's creation of the First Born was also touted to be Diana's new archnemesis as well? I mean...at the very least, bring him back and make him worthwhile.
Seriously though...if they really wanted us to feel that a character is her actual archnemesis...bring one back. Dont create. Bring one back and make him or her worthwhile. For me...it's Circe, Cheetah or even Veronica Cale (i know no one outside of Rucka has really used her, but she's gotten more use than any other contemporary villain Diana has.) Bring in Clea...why oh why are we not seeing writers use her more? She's got power, stature (she is a queen of a nation isn't she? What's her realm/country like? Where is it? How does it pose a threat to Diana or Themyscira?)
I personally love Circe...but she also has to be visually appealing and Rucka's last attempt made her look like Sharon Osborn the housewife, not the powerful mythological Greek witch she is. But she needs a consistent look so that when readers see her, they immediately know. We've kind of gotten used to the purple haired version who typically is represented in the ancient Greek dress. Give her something a little more consistent and use it.
Cheetah...I much more prefer the Perez or Jiminez versions over the most recent Rucka/Sharp version. As far as public recognition goes, she's got the spot, but there's no real justification is there?

Anyone else? Who have we had over the last fifteen years that could fit that bill? I am a little disappointed in King that he's not taking someone from Diana's pantheon of villains and elevating them, but again can't really blame him as it's more likely the next Wonder Woman movie will be pulled from his run than anything else and he stands to make a nice check off that.

[Skytten]

I hate that Cheetah story, the one about the Year of the Villain, I got really fed up and didn't want to know anything more about the character.
That being said, I don't like Rebirth's Cheetah, I think it's the worst thing Rucka ever did. My Barbara Minerva is the ruthless woman created by Perez.

Same. It worked for his story, but kinda ruined her for later stories.

[Aegis]

Why is everyone talking about Circe and Cheetah when he seems to be talking about non-powered villains?

[Agent Z]

I feel like people look to Circe as the arch because she's also from mythology and a spellcasting witch is a cool idea when pitted against Diana as a warrior.

But that's pretty much as far as it goes, because it's not like she's ever had a consistent motivation to hate Diana. Some of the motivations, like the one she had in the Perez era, were pretty bad in a way only comic books can be.

Cheetah also has an issue with inconsistent motivations, arguably moreso considering how many different characters have used the moniker. That's not even getting into adaptations like the DCAU and 1984 which use entirely different motivations from the comics.

Of Diana's big three enemies, Circe is the only who has actually hurt Diana in a way Luthor or the Joker have hurt their respective heroes. Her turning Vanessa in the Silver Swan is basically Diana's equivalent of "A Death in the Family".

[Agent Z]

Why is everyone talking about Circe and Cheetah when he seems to be talking about non-powered villains?

Nothing indicates he is.

[SiegePerilous02]

Cheetah also has an issue with inconsistent motivations, arguably moreso considering how many different characters have used the moniker. That's not even getting into adaptations like the DCAU and 1984 which use entirely different motivations from the comics.

Of Diana's big three enemies, Circe is the only who has actually hurt Diana in a way Luthor or the Joker have hurt their respective heroes. Her turning Vanessa in the Silver Swan is basically Diana's equivalent of "A Death in the Family".

Jealousy in some form or another is pretty consistent across Priscilla and Barbara, and made it into WW84. Its simple and direct, vs Circe's convoluted soul swapping motivation. As well as hating the Amazons despite not having any direct interaction with them. The one thing the DCAU did right was simplifying her motive down to hating Hippolyta for old slights and taking it out on Diana.

Her role in Vanessa's transformation is kind of a forgotten bit of WW trivia. Ruckas first run is more high profile than Jimenez, and she had fallen into Cale's hands in that. So much so that Veronica and Dr. Cyber were responsible for it in Bloodlines, and Psycho in Rebirth. "Death in the Family" belongs to the Joker, but DC doesn't seem to care for consistency in which villain corrupts Vanessa.

[Mel Dyer]

This is what modern editors and writers seem to miss. An archnemesis can not just be created. They are curated over time. King can create a new villain, he can create some great big bad that threatens Diana's ideology and world, but will this character be an archnemesis? Only if they are picked up and used again and again over time. Wasn't Azzerello's creation of the First Born was also touted to be Diana's new archnemesis as well? I mean...at the very least, bring him back and make him worthwhile.
Seriously though...if they really wanted us to feel that a character is her actual archnemesis...bring one back. Dont create. Bring one back and make him or her worthwhile. For me...it's Circe, Cheetah or even Veronica Cale (i know no one outside of Rucka has really used her, but she's gotten more use than any other contemporary villain Diana has.) Bring in Clea...why oh why are we not seeing writers use her more? She's got power, stature (she is a queen of a nation isn't she? What's her realm/country like? Where is it? How does it pose a threat to Diana or Themyscira?)
I personally love Circe...but she also has to be visually appealing and Rucka's last attempt made her look like Sharon Osborn the housewife, not the powerful mythological Greek witch she is. But she needs a consistent look so that when readers see her, they immediately know. We've kind of gotten used to the purple haired version who typically is represented in the ancient Greek dress. Give her something a little more consistent and use it.
Cheetah...I much more prefer the Perez or Jiminez versions over the most recent Rucka/Sharp version. As far as public recognition goes, she's got the spot, but there's no real justification is there?

Anyone else? Who have we had over the last fifteen years that could fit that bill? I am a little disappointed in King that he's not taking someone from Diana's pantheon of villains and elevating them, but again can't really blame him as it's more likely the next Wonder Woman movie will be pulled from his run than anything else and he stands to make a nice check off that.

I agree with you, OT, ..but what if there is no established archenemy?

I think it was Joss Whedon, who said (in interview) the challenge with making a WW film is creating something new, but making it look like it's been around for fifty years - I'm paraphrasing Whedon. Anything writers try to create from whole cloth, no matter how hard they try, will feel a little tacked on and forced, ..because there's not much there to work with.

Again, the squandered Silver Age...

Jealousy in some form or another is pretty consistent across Priscilla and Barbara, and made it into WW84. Its simple and direct, vs Circe's convoluted soul swapping motivation. As well as hating the Amazons despite not having any direct interaction with them. The one thing the DCAU did right was simplifying her motive down to hating Hippolyta for old slights and taking it out on Diana...

The Tynion origin is much clearer, simpler...maybe, the best yet. Circe's contempt for all mortalkind, whom she feels betrayed her and chased her into Hell for killing her abusive husband, makes sense in this story. No tacked on feud with Amazons or Hecate prophecy is needed here, though he uses the Hecate thing in his story, anyway.

I was once this community's most vocal Circe-hater. James Tynion's origin made me a fan.

[Confuzzled]

King's creation about to join The First Born and Grail in the 'Touted to become Wonder Woman's archnemesis before fizzling out' queue of non-starters

[Koriand'r]

King's creation about to join The First Born and Grail in the 'Touted to become Wonder Woman's archnemesis before fizzling out' queue of non-starters

That's the main problem, First Born and Grail could still be viable if writers would only use them. That's true of most of Diana's rogues. (And also supporting characters if we're being honest.)

[Largo161]

Anyone else? Who have we had over the last fifteen years that could fit that bill? I am a little disappointed in King that he's not taking someone from Diana's pantheon of villains and elevating them, but again can't really blame him as it's more likely the next Wonder Woman movie will be pulled from his run than anything else and he stands to make a nice check off that.

What makes you say this? You really think Gunn & co. are already planning to make a movie based off of a run the public hasn't even sampled yet...much less given the thumbs up or thumbs down??